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Author Topic: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated  (Read 10058 times)

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Offline Traveler

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Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2023, 02:13:20 PM »
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    • Bishop Da Silva didn’t flunk out of the SAJM seminary. He actually started in a conservative leaning Novus Ordo seminary where he discovered Tradition in his position as the librarian. He studied in Santa Cruz for many years before going to France to study. He also speaks 4 languages including French. Bishop Williamson hand picked Bishop Da Silva to go to France after noticing his qualities of leadership skill. 

    Flunking out of the seminary. He was there for more than a year and more than 5 years in Santa Cruz. 

    It’s easy to talk like you know when you actually don’t. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
    « Reply #16 on: November 19, 2023, 02:35:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Traveler on November 19, 2023, 02:13:20 PM
    Bishop Da Silva didn’t flunk out of the SAJM seminary. He actually started in a conservative leaning Novus Ordo seminary where he discovered Tradition in his position as the librarian. He studied in Santa Cruz for many years before going to France to study. He also speaks 4 languages including French. Bishop Williamson hand picked Bishop Da Silva to go to France after noticing his qualities of leadership skill.

    Flunking out of the seminary. He was there for more than a year and more than 5 years in Santa Cruz.

    It’s easy to talk like you know when you actually don’t.

    Actually, I know the whole story from both Fr. Trincado (i.e., seminary faculty) and +Zendejas.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Traveler

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    Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
    « Reply #17 on: November 19, 2023, 09:06:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on November 19, 2023, 08:33:50 AM
    .
    It seems that, instead of rushing out to say he doesn't approve because he doesn't know anything about the candidates, he might have learned something about the candidates and *then* issued an opinion.
    .

    There’s no need to speculate. Speak with SGG yourself and they will more than likely tell you. Their principle concern is that Fr. Altamira and Fr. Roy are what they label suspected opinionists. That means that they did not want these priests consecrated because they would say they are sede vacantists, while saying that faithful could still go to SSPX masses. Opportunists on the other hand, will use this as a weak attempt to smear ex-resistance priests, but the fact is that SGG did not think these priests were dogmatic sedevacantists and that is what led to the division. 

    Too sedevacantist for Bishop Faure but not sedevacantist enough for Bishop McGuire. Can’t please anyone can you. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
    « Reply #18 on: November 19, 2023, 09:12:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Traveler on November 19, 2023, 09:06:13 PM
    There’s no need to speculate. Speak with SGG yourself and they will more than likely tell you. Their principle concern is that Fr. Altamira and Fr. Roy are what they label suspected opinionists. That means that they did not want these priests consecrated because they would say they are sede vacantists, while saying that faithful could still go to SSPX masses. Opportunists on the other hand, will use this as a weak attempt to smear ex-resistance priests, but the fact is that SGG did not think these priests were dogmatic sedevacantists and that is what led to the division.

    Too sedevacantist for Bishop Faure but not sedevacantist enough for Bishop McGuire. Can’t please anyone can you.
    Yeah, who ever heard of a rector requiring that a candidate for the priesthood should at least be able to pass his 1st year seminary classes?  Fortunately for da Silva, others are not so “unreasonable.”
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    Offline Barry

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    Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
    « Reply #19 on: November 20, 2023, 06:23:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on November 19, 2023, 08:06:12 AM
    Seems like, for a cleric, becoming Sedevacantist is a recipe for promotion, a recipe for "greatness". Imagine being consecrated a bishop while still very young, around 30 years old. That totally wouldn't influence a person when choosing between sedevacantism and not-sedevacantism. ::)
    Since Fr. Pierre Roy was my parish priest for about 8 years (before and after his departure from the SSPX), I can tell you he did NOT come to his opinions as a "recipe for promotion".  Earlier on, near the 2012 time frame, he hoped the SSPX would come to its senses, and perhaps for Bishop Tissier to help with the restoration.  He was very alone when he left, without prospects for "promotion".  The SSPX had changed, not he.  I think folks on CathInfo would know what I am talking about.

    I have been a Traditional Catholic for over 50 years, and met many dozens of priests, many of whom stayed at our home.  Fr. Roy, now I believe in his mid-30's, always had the wisdom, prudence, and charity of a much older priest.  (I've met many newly-minted priests, in their first years, and I always enjoyed their zest but their prudence was still a work in progress.)  What Fr. Roy and we faithful endured together in Canada, with the C0v1d police etc, only confirmed my good opinion of Fr. Roy.  I would say the same for other priests who took actual risks for people's souls during this time.  If what we suffered be "greatness", then it is to be desired.

    I do not feel qualified to recommend who should be made a bishop, and when and where, since I am just a layman.  I leave that to God and His clergy.  If there is anything that I can do to help them get together to sort things out, I am more than willing to help.  They are, all of them, in my prayers.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
    « Reply #20 on: June 30, 2024, 03:44:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on November 19, 2023, 08:06:12 AM
    Seems like, for a cleric, becoming Sedevacantist is a recipe for promotion, a recipe for "greatness". Imagine being consecrated a bishop while still very young, around 30 years old. That totally wouldn't influence a person when choosing between sedevacantism and not-sedevacantism. ::)

    On the other hand, imagine being consecrated a Bishop when you’re an old man and are slow to do anything?

    You have to wonder for what purpose those consecrations were made?
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
    « Reply #21 on: June 30, 2024, 04:54:27 PM »
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    • Does everyone understand clearly that trad bishops -- sede, R&R, and SSPX -- are not bishops in the strict sense (holding a juridical office whether as ordinary, suffragan, auxiliary, or curial) but only dispensers of sacraments requiring episcopal ministration?
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
    « Reply #22 on: June 30, 2024, 05:43:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on June 30, 2024, 04:54:27 PM
    Does everyone understand clearly that trad bishops -- sede, R&R, and SSPX -- are not bishops in the strict sense (holding a juridical office whether as ordinary, suffragan, auxiliary, or curial) but only dispensers of sacraments requiring episcopal ministration?
    Dear ElwinRansom1970,

    Yes. They have jurisdiction coming from their consecratory rites, but they do not possess the Papal Mandate, which would assign their territory. That is why it is important that no Catholic props up a usurper on Peter's Chair; whether by the novus ordo position, or sedeprivationism, or any other explanation permitting the enemy of Christ to be seen as a Pope.  Eventually, that is how the Antichrist will be sitting on the Throne of Peter.

    Stop thinking of material things.  The Church is the perfect society. Our Lord did not die for the buildings in the Vatican or anywhere else. The faithful souls are what matters.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
    « Reply #23 on: June 30, 2024, 06:04:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on June 30, 2024, 04:54:27 PM
    Does everyone understand clearly that trad bishops -- sede, R&R, and SSPX -- are not bishops in the strict sense (holding a juridical office whether as ordinary, suffragan, auxiliary, or curial) but only dispensers of sacraments requiring episcopal ministration?

    You bring up an interesting question for me. Given that the sede, SSPX, and R&R bishops have supplied jurisdiction, do you know if that supplied jurisdiction includes a teaching office for the Faith? I mean, does supplied jurisdiction include teaching and preaching, or does it really just consist of supplying the sacraments? I've not ever thought about it before. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
    « Reply #24 on: June 30, 2024, 08:29:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 30, 2024, 06:04:33 PM
    You bring up an interesting question for me. Given that the sede, SSPX, and R&R bishops have supplied jurisdiction, do you know if that supplied jurisdiction includes a teaching office for the Faith? I mean, does supplied jurisdiction include teaching and preaching, or does it really just consist of supplying the sacraments? I've not ever thought about it before.
    No, ecclesia supplet has nothing to do with magisterial functions. It pertains only to the administration of sacraments and is not habitual, meaning that supplied jurisdiction is not something a trad bishops or priest continually possesses. They only have supplied jurisdiction as needed when administering sacraments for which they lack ordinary jurisdiction for their administration -- and only so long as a stare of emergency persists in the Church (apart from other situations where ecclesia supplet obtains such as danger of death or common error).

    A great many incorrect ideas regarding supplied jurisdiction have circulated over the past 50 years. It only has to do with sacraments and in no way confers any kind of ecclesial office or mandate.
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
    « Reply #25 on: June 30, 2024, 10:23:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on June 30, 2024, 04:54:27 PM
    Does everyone understand clearly that trad bishops -- sede, R&R, and SSPX -- are not bishops in the strict sense (holding a juridical office whether as ordinary, suffragan, auxiliary, or curial) but only dispensers of sacraments requiring episcopal ministration?

    Correct me if I am wrong, but according to the little research that I've made, a bishop who is not attached to a diocesis (real or "titular") has never occured in the Church's history. It can be said to be a "Traditionalist creation".
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
    « Reply #26 on: June 30, 2024, 10:28:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on June 30, 2024, 10:23:46 PM
    Correct me if I am wrong, but according to the little research that I've made, a bishop who is not attached to a diocesis (real or "titular") has never occured in the Church's history. It can be said to be a "Traditionalist creation".
    Correct! This is why trad bishops are essentially sacrament dispensers and nothing more. It is an odd historical development because they do not even hold or claim to hold titular sees.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
    « Reply #27 on: July 01, 2024, 06:42:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on June 30, 2024, 10:28:10 PM
    Correct! This is why trad bishops are essentially sacrament dispensers and nothing more. It is an odd historical development because they do not even hold or claim to hold titular sees.

    Even the notion of a "Chor" or "Auxiliary" bishop took a bit to develop in the Church.  They too had no jurisdiction, which is a bit tricky since the very term "episcopos" implies having authority over priests, but were merely consecrated to assist bishops as Sacrament dispensers (for the most part), the difference being that they were at least "attached" to a bishop.  This is actually another argument against the validity of the New Rite of consecration.  Even if you can untangle the linguistic mess that is the form, the reference is to having authority (vs. the Traditional Rite of having the summit of the priesthood), which rules out its use for creating auxliary or chor bishops without jurisdiction, and is consistent with Father Cekada's argument that the closest analogy in the Eastern Rites (as alleged by the defenders of the form) is with a rite for the installation of a Patriarch, not the consecration of a bishop.
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
    « Reply #28 on: July 01, 2024, 08:48:09 AM »
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    • And it's kind of strange when Traditionalist bishops sing mass from the throne, use the crozier or even the mitre, which are all symbols related to jurisdiction.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Frs. Altamira & Pierre Roy to be consecrated
    « Reply #29 on: July 01, 2024, 08:51:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on July 01, 2024, 08:48:09 AM
    And it's kind of strange when Traditionalist bishops sing mass from the throne, use the crozier or even the mitre, which are all symbols related to jurisdiction.

    I've never understood these practices either.  They should use the faldstool and dispense with the crozier (not sure about the mitre).
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