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Author Topic: Frank on the Death Penalty  (Read 2121 times)

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Offline OHCA

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Frank on the Death Penalty
« on: February 21, 2016, 07:22:36 AM »
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  • "The commandment "You shall not kill," has absolute value and applies to both the innocent and the guilty," he told the crowd.

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0VU0GH

    So it seems Frank believes that the Popes who previously taught that the state has the legitimate authority to impose the death penalty were advocating mortal sin in violation of the 5th Commandment.

    Also, what happened to his stance on "trivial social issues?"  I guess that doesn't apply to the liberal agenda.


    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Frank on the Death Penalty
    « Reply #1 on: February 21, 2016, 12:24:00 PM »
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  • It is because the alleged Pope is a Liberal and see's the criminal as the good
    guy, and the victim as the bad guy for being at the wrong place at the
    wrong time.
    Ever since this attitude was adopted by many of the intellectual elites
    in the 1960's. Violent crime has skyrocketed. The true figures are
    suppressed in the media so the public are not aware of the increasing
    crime.
    Liberalisms thrives in a violent crime ridden environment because
    the Liberals blame the environment and will go out of the way to not
    to blame the individual for his actions.
    The trillion of dollars spent in the War on Poverty programs have not
    decreased crime. It has empowered a welfare class to vote for liberal
    candidates to increase their benefits. Also empowers a class that
    administers the programs that lobby for more money.
    States and Countries that have the Death Penalty has a lower crime
    rates than those that abolished the Death Penalty.
    Murderers that sentenced for life, many times get out of prison less
    than 20 years serve because of the increasing prison population.
    Many have been sent back to prison because they have committed
    a violent crime after their release.
    A murderer in prison that kills a prison guard, or a fellow inmate.
    All that can be done to resentence him to another life term.
     


    Offline Cantarella

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    Frank on the Death Penalty
    « Reply #2 on: February 21, 2016, 11:38:17 PM »
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  • Double Post
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Frank on the Death Penalty
    « Reply #3 on: February 21, 2016, 11:39:18 PM »
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  • Leftist libtards!

    Traditionally, the Holy Roman Catholic Church always defended the right of the State to administer the death penalty (even the Vatican City and other papal states formerly used it!), in order to protect the citizenry from a repeat offense, but also for reasons of "expiation" and even the spiritual welfare of the guilty, because the sentence could lead to a possible conversion.

    Quote from: Catechism of the Council of Trent
    Again, this prohibition [of killing] does not apply to the civil magistrate, to whom is entrusted the power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which he punishes the guilty and protects the innocent. The use of the civil sword, when wielded by the hand of justice, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the commandment is the preservation and sanctity of human life, and to the attainment of this end, the punishments inflicted by the civil magistrate, who is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend, giving security to life by repressing outrage and violence.


    "It must not be forgotten that the death penalty, like any criminal penalty, serves as a form of expiation. That is why prisons were once called penitentiaries. As Saint Thomas observes in the Summa:

    Quote
    “Even death inflicted as a punishment for crimes takes away the whole punishment for those crimes in the next life, or at least part of that punishment, according to the quantities of guilt, resignation, and contrition; but a natural death does not.” (Cf. Romano Amerio Iota Unum, 435).


    Further, in the case of capital punishment the expiatory penalty reflects the sin of one whose grave crime has caused him to lose the right to life. Some 700 years after the Summa, Pope Pius XII repeated the constant teaching of the Church in this regard":

    Quote
    “Even when it is a question of someone condemned to death, the state does not dispose of an individual’s right to life. It is then the task of public authority to deprive the condemned man of the good of life, in expiation of his fault, after he has already deprived himself of the right to life by his crime.” (AAS, 1952, pp. 779 et. seq)"

    http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/can-the-church-ban-capital-punishment



    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Frank on the Death Penalty
    « Reply #4 on: February 22, 2016, 12:14:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: OHCA

    "The commandment 'You shall not kill' has absolute value and applies to both the innocent and the guilty," he told the crowd.

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0VU0GH


    This is an example of the nonsense you get when you try to make principles of mathematics apply to philosophy.  

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Frank on the Death Penalty
    « Reply #5 on: February 22, 2016, 08:41:43 AM »
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  • No, it's not just because of seeing the criminal as the "good guy".  We are to have compassion even for the guilty.

    Where the error comes from is this false notion that people on their own have an inalienable "right to life" ... even apart from God.  It comes from decades of bogus "Pro Life" rhetoric which constantly drivels on about the human being's right to life.  Instead, what's REALLY at issue is GOD'S rights over life (and death).  God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and his compliance was considered so praiseworthy as to have God set him up as the father of the race into which Our Lord would be born.  It's sheer HUMANISM, the replacement of God with man.  And, in that context, of course it makes sense that the death penalty would be wrong.  In Traditional Catholic theology, however, the state exercises the authority of God over society, and so the state can take away life (for just and proportionate causes) ... precisely because God can take life whenever He so wills it.  That's the distortion at the root cause of this error, the so-called "seamless garment" BS.  It's only "seamless" due to their inability to make the proper theological distinctions.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Frank on the Death Penalty
    « Reply #6 on: February 22, 2016, 08:44:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: Bergoglio
    "The commandment "You shall not kill," has absolute value and applies to both the innocent and the guilty," he told the crowd.


    Idiots should not be allowed to teach basic catechism, much less function as popes.

    EVERYONE knows that the Hebrew term for "kill" in the Commandments very clearly connotes "murder" (the unjust taking of life).  God Himself many times commanded the Israelites to kill their enemies and asked Abraham to sacrifice his son.  Absolute my ass.  He has no idea what the term "absolute" means.  Only GOD is "absolute".

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Frank on the Death Penalty
    « Reply #7 on: February 22, 2016, 09:16:24 AM »
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  • Or he has a terrible translator.
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline B from A

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    Frank on the Death Penalty
    « Reply #8 on: February 22, 2016, 11:46:33 AM »
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  • [editing…]

    Offline Desmond

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    Frank on the Death Penalty
    « Reply #9 on: February 23, 2016, 02:38:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Bergoglio
    "The commandment "You shall not kill," has absolute value and applies to both the innocent and the guilty," he told the crowd.


    Idiots should not be allowed to teach basic catechism, much less function as popes.

    EVERYONE knows that the Hebrew term for "kill" in the Commandments very clearly connotes "murder" (the unjust taking of life).  God Himself many times commanded the Israelites to kill their enemies and asked Abraham to sacrifice his son.  Absolute my ass.  He has no idea what the term "absolute" means.  Only GOD is "absolute".



    Well said.
    On top of that, the God-sanctioned smithing of the wicked, direct and indirect, capital punishment was commonplace in the Mosaic Law, for instance even applying to impure wives:



    Deuteronomy 22:20–21


    Also, capital punishment for all sorts of crimes has been a Church approved practice well into modern times.

    If I recall correctly even JPII's Catechism still approves it.

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Frank on the Death Penalty
    « Reply #10 on: February 23, 2016, 03:26:13 AM »
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  • I'm still waiting for Clare to opine here by saying, "he who is without sin cast the first stone", while injecting a "racial bias of the death penalty" element to the thread.  :laugh2:
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)


    Offline Desmond

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    Frank on the Death Penalty
    « Reply #11 on: February 23, 2016, 03:49:09 AM »
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  • On the subject, I remember reading about Cesare Beccaria's "On Crimes and Punishments" that the 18th century humanist and father of modern abolitionist movement argued that capital punishment was useless in part because the lowly, deeply religious, uncultured populace did not fear it, blindly believing in an Afterlife.

    He's right. Capital punishment starts to become a "crime" and some sort of supreme horror only when a religious outlook on life, reality and society itself is abandoned.

    For an atheist, death is the end of everything, hence murder the most grave of acts (not that it stops them hypocritically murdering innocents such as infants or even the elderly as it's becoming common though, as they are completely amoral).

    Death penalty ceases to be what it was always meant to be: not a cruel, wicked punishment but a just purifying correction and safeguard for the common good.

    Nope Francis & his ilk can only share their views only because they ultimately do not believe in God, truly.


    Offline clare

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    Frank on the Death Penalty
    « Reply #12 on: February 23, 2016, 05:44:33 AM »
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  • Quote from: ascent
    I'm still waiting for Clare to opine here by saying, "he who is without sin cast the first stone", while injecting a "racial bias of the death penalty" element to the thread.  :laugh2:

    You called??

    Anyhow, I know the death penalty is acceptable, and that the proper authorities have the right to impose it. That doesn't necessarily mean it's obligatory, and the fact that clergy weren't allowed to have been involved in executions seems to indicate there's something distasteful about it.

    Quote
    Defect of mildness

    This impediment, termed in Latin defectus lenitatis, makes those persons irregular who voluntarily, actively, and proximately take part with sanction of public authority in the lawful killing or mutilating of another. The reason of this irregularity is that since Christ was the gentlest of men, and priests are His representatives, they should likewise be models of mildness.... Defect of mildness also constitutes an irregularity for those concerned in legal capital punishment, as judges pronouncing sentences of death, witnesses, accusers, clerks writing out the sentence, and those who carry it into actual execution. As jurymen with us are really judges, they would seem to contract this irregularity likewise. The law is so strict that a judge who decrees a death sentence which was not carried out remains irregular for the reception of Sacred orders. Clerics who prosecute a layman before a court for injuries done to themselves must protest, according to Boniface VIII, that they do not desire sentence of capital punishment, if they wish to keep clear of irregularity...

    Catholic Encyclopedia

    Offline Nadir

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    Frank on the Death Penalty
    « Reply #13 on: February 23, 2016, 09:53:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Desmond

    Capital punishment starts to become a "crime" and some sort of supreme horror only when a religious outlook on life, reality and society itself is abandoned.

    For an atheist, death is the end of everything....

    Death penalty ceases to be what it was always meant to be: ....a just purifying correction and safeguard for the common good.



    Yes but what of those whose atheism evaporates at the thought of impending death? It has a saving face that a sudden unexpected death has not. Criminals have notice, and a given time, to put their lives right before God by repentance. Is this not a mark of God's Mercy?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Desmond

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    Frank on the Death Penalty
    « Reply #14 on: February 24, 2016, 03:43:32 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir


    Yes but what of those whose atheism evaporates at the thought of impending death? It has a saving face that a sudden unexpected death has not. Criminals have notice, and a given time, to put their lives right before God by repentance. Is this not a mark of God's Mercy?


    Dear Nadir,
    I meant from an atheistic point of view, not how it objectively might affect atheists.