Quote from: Vinikias

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Vinikias

Can a public heretic have authority in the Church?

Yes. Until his superior takes away his authority and removes him from his office, he remains in his office with his full authority.

You're just a flat out liar.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, “Heresy,” 1914, Vol. 7, p. 261: “The pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.”

The Catholic Encyclopedia, “Papal Elections,” 1914, Vol. 11, p. 456: "Of course, the election of a heretic, schismatic, or female [as Pope] would be null and void."

St. Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal and Doctor of the Church, De Romano Pontifice, II, 30:
"A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases to be pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction."

St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, II, 30:
"This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. De great. Christ. Cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope."

St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306: "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."

St. Antoninus (1459): "In the case in which the pope would become a heretic, he would find himself, by that fact alone and without any other sentence, separated from the Church. A head separated from a body cannot, as long as it remains separated, be head of the same body from which it was cut off. A pope who would be separated from the Church by heresy, therefore, would by that very fact itself cease to be head of the Church. He could not be a heretic and remain pope, because, since he is outside of the Church, he cannot possess the keys of the Church." (Summa Theologica, cited in Actes de Vatican I. V. Frond pub.)

I could quote you more things, but being the liar that you are, you will just dismiss it al the same won't you?

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Vinikias

No you're just trolling now and you can't even have an honest conversation.

Make the distinction of PUBLIC AND SECRET HERESY.

Oh, because you do not like the conclusion of your theory you decide I'm trolling now. As I told you already, read what is written as it is written, if you do that, you will be unable to come up with your conclusion that heretics, if they be pope, lose their office for the oh so simple reason that he has no superior to take away his authority and remove him, as such, he retains his authority and office no matter how much you don't like it.

You're just an outrageous LIAR on the road to Hell.

Is your name Stanley, by any chance? You know, like that TROLL from the 90's movie A Troll in Central Park?

LOL You've been here for a whole 25 posts and I'm a troll and a liar and on my way to hell?

You simply refuse to get the clue after repeatedly telling you what it is that you are to do - it sure seems to aggravate you a lot, but that happens whenever anyone tries to twist the truth into saying something it does not say then making a dogma out of it.

 :pop:
 

What you are doing is utterly abominable, and even Vermont can see what a liar you are.

Truly, you are a disgrace.

Stubborn, can you plainly say why you disagree with Vinikias.  Is it simply that you believe that a heretic doesn't automatically lose his title?  Because, I got to tell you, what Vinikias is saying is making a whole lot of sense to me and it appears that Church teaching supports him.

The Church is not a democracy, Our Lord set it up as a monarchical form of government - Pope is supreme, there is no authority on earth above him, there is no tribunal which can judge him or remove him from office.

Even though Vini wants to proclaim the pope cannot be the pope due to the popes' obvious public heresies, that is not within his rights anymore than it is with your rights - if such a thing were within our rights, there would be nothing to ever stop us from dethroning a good pope no matter what the good St. Robert said.  

It is not our business to busy ourselves telling the world that the pope is not the pope when there is no way of proving it - anymore than than we can prove that NO consecration of the Blessed Sacrament is positively invalid.

Even if the pope really is not the pope, there is no way to prove it, we certainly do not have the authority to make such declarations, there is nothing we can do about it because the Church set up the process and procedure of what happens when one incurs the penalty of excommunication - and it takes the superior of the one who is excommunicated to actually do anything about it - the pope has never had and never will have a superior.

All we can and should do is point out his errors and heresies so that others do not follow him in his heresies. That is our duty.





 

Vini, it is not surprising you spew the vileness at me - it must frustrate you a lot that the pope is a heretic and there is not one single thing you can do about it - but if you would accept the truth that there is nothing you will ever be able to do about it, your conscience would rest much easier I'm sure.

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: 2Vermont

Stubborn, can you plainly say why you disagree with Vinikias.  Is it simply that you believe that a heretic doesn't automatically lose his title?  Because, I got to tell you, what Vinikias is saying is making a whole lot of sense to me and it appears that Church teaching supports him.

The Church is not a democracy, Our Lord set it up as a monarchical form of government - Pope is supreme, there is no authority on earth above him, there is no tribunal which can judge him or remove him from office.

Even though Vini wants to proclaim the pope cannot be the pope due to the popes' obvious public heresies, that is not within his rights anymore than it is with your rights - if such a thing were within our rights, there would be nothing to ever stop us from dethroning a good pope no matter what the good St. Robert said.  

It is not our business to busy ourselves telling the world that the pope is not the pope when there is no way of proving it - anymore than than we can prove that NO consecration of the Blessed Sacrament is positively invalid.

Even if the pope really is not the pope, there is no way to prove it, we certainly do not have the authority to make such declarations, there is nothing we can do about it because the Church set up the process and procedure of what happens when one incurs the penalty of excommunication - and it takes the superior of the one who is excommunicated to actually do anything about it - the pope has never had and never will have a superior.

All we can and should do is point out his errors and heresies so that others do not follow him in his heresies. That is our duty.

You keep on piling up more punishments for yourself.

Go on.

So you *are* a dogmatic sede! Well shoot, FYI, that non-doctrine is not allowed here at CI so watch yourself - - just letting you know.

Quote from: Vinikias

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: 2Vermont

Stubborn, can you plainly say why you disagree with Vinikias.  Is it simply that you believe that a heretic doesn't automatically lose his title?  Because, I got to tell you, what Vinikias is saying is making a whole lot of sense to me and it appears that Church teaching supports him.

The Church is not a democracy, Our Lord set it up as a monarchical form of government - Pope is supreme, there is no authority on earth above him, there is no tribunal which can judge him or remove him from office.

Even though Vini wants to proclaim the pope cannot be the pope due to the popes' obvious public heresies, that is not within his rights anymore than it is with your rights - if such a thing were within our rights, there would be nothing to ever stop us from dethroning a good pope no matter what the good St. Robert said.  

It is not our business to busy ourselves telling the world that the pope is not the pope when there is no way of proving it - anymore than than we can prove that NO consecration of the Blessed Sacrament is positively invalid.

Even if the pope really is not the pope, there is no way to prove it, we certainly do not have the authority to make such declarations, there is nothing we can do about it because the Church set up the process and procedure of what happens when one incurs the penalty of excommunication - and it takes the superior of the one who is excommunicated to actually do anything about it - the pope has never had and never will have a superior.

All we can and should do is point out his errors and heresies so that others do not follow him in his heresies. That is our duty.

You keep on piling up more punishments for yourself.

Go on.

So you *are* a dogmatic sede! Well shoot, FYI, that non-doctrine is not allowed here at CI so watch yourself - - just letting you know.

Dogmatic what?

I am calling you out on your LIES.

Are people banned here for pointing out lies?

Gee whiz!

Your position has zero credibility and logic.

Just try to convert a protestant or any non-Catholic right now.

Go tell him these popes are heretical apostates, but yet they still are popes.

See how that goes.

Stubborn has now been upgraded - or downgraded, depending how you want to look at it - to an idolater.

You don't have to be an asshole when you argue.

I never use that word. But you have no problem with it.

It is far worse to call someone an idolater than to call someone an asshole. You can be an asshole and get to heaven, but idolaters are damned.