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Author Topic: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo  (Read 5225 times)

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Offline Judith 15 Ten

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Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2019, 01:56:20 PM »
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  • Yes but, following on from your logic here, it'd be impossible for us to ever have a Pope again bar a sudden mass conversion of the Novus Ordo clergy. And even that would have some issues, seeing as their validity is certainly in question.

    Do you know how to read? Only the Cardinalate would have to convert.

    "Vacante Sede Apostolica, promulgated by Pius X, in 1904.  See # 17 [...] the right to elect the Roman Pontiff belongs solely and exclusively to the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church".
    "All others being absolutely excluded whatsoever ecclesiastical or lay position they may have."

    I advise you to take remedial reading to improve your comprehension.

    Regarding the question of the Cardinalate's validity, they still hold material offices and positions of their bishopric and cardinalate, therefore, if they were to publicly abjure their heresy, Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Sacrilege, their material episcopacy and cardinalate would be made whole & formal, hence, they'd become valid bishops and cardinals of the Catholic Church, and they could elect a legitimate pope.
    Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array? ~ Canticle of Canticles 6:9


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #46 on: February 17, 2019, 02:01:50 PM »
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  • “Only the College of Cardinals can elect a pope”

    The College of Cardinals didn’t exist for the first 800 years of the Church’s existence and they were not the sole electors of the pope until the 12th century.  Clearly it is not by Divine law/institution that they are so now.  So it is by the Church’s disciplinary law that only the Cardinals can elect the pope.  But a disciplinary law has no force in cases where necessity dictates an act contrary to the law.  e.g. exceeding the speed limit to rush an injured person to the hospital.

    On the other hand, that the hierarchy is solely responsible for the election of the pope is by Divine institution.  So that law can not be violated under any circuмstances.

    As you mentioned, and no one would disagree, an imperfect General Council can elect a pope.  But you also say that only the jurisdictional hierarchy can convoke a General Council.  Can you provide a reference for that?  Not that I have never heard that before but I have never seen a pre-Vatican 2 reference for it.

    It certainly isn’t required that the electors of the pope must have ordinary jurisdiction because otherwise how is it that the pope was elected in the past by the local clergy of Rome?

    “as we know that it is impossible that the Church is left without possible electors of the [Pope].”

    Yes because the Church is a perfect society.  And a perfect society contains within itself everything necessary to fulfill its mission.  But the Novus Ordo is not within the Church.  So the notion that the legitimate electors are non-Catholic members of the Vatican 2 sect would place the electors (necessary for the continuation of the Church) outside the Church.  The material designation wouldn’t put them inside the Church. Because a manifest heretic is outside the Church.

    When I use the term Roman clergy I mean to include all the members (clerics) of the local diocese of Rome including the Cardinals, the auxiliary bishops, the priests, deacons, subdeacons, porters, etc as defined by the canon which you quoted.

    You asked who can reverse disciplinary law?  In cases of necessity a disciplinary law does not bind and the authority to elect the pope devolves to the highest existing authority in the hierarchy of the Church.  These types of scenarios were contemplated by pre-Vatican 2 theologians and as far as I know I’m not proposing a novel point of view.  Maybe it’s not a popular view but I didn’t make anything up.  I’m basing my view on what pre-Vatican 2 theologians have written.

    Finally, I disagree that there are no traditional Catholic clerics in Rome.  I’m sure Fr Abramovitz knows better than I. Msgr Fenton and Msgr Van Noort both speculated about the possibility that a nuclear war could wipe out whole dioceses and even possibly all of them except the Roman See.  It has been asserted by many theologians that the Roman See will always have at least some faithful living there or at least associated with the See even if they might be in exile.  Of course it is dogma that the Holy See will never fail but to what level it can be reduced is not clear.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #47 on: February 17, 2019, 02:23:17 PM »
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  • Do you know how to read? Only the Cardinalate would have to convert.

    "Vacante Sede Apostolica, promulgated by Pius X, in 1904.  See # 17 [...] the right to elect the Roman Pontiff belongs solely and exclusively to the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church".
    "All others being absolutely excluded whatsoever ecclesiastical or lay position they may have."

    I advise you to take remedial reading to improve your comprehension.

    Regarding the question of the Cardinalate's validity, they still hold material offices and positions of their bishopric and cardinalate, therefore, if they were to publicly abjure their heresy, Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Sacrilege, their material episcopacy and cardinalate would be made whole & formal, hence, they'd become valid bishops and cardinals of the Catholic Church, and they could elect a legitimate pope.
    There are quite a lot of Cardinals. It's still a mass conversion. 

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #48 on: February 17, 2019, 07:03:33 PM »
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  • Regarding Papal elections, the authority remains in the Constitution Vacante Sede Apostolica, promulgated by Pius X, in 1904.  See # 17. "the right to elect the Roman Pontiff belongs solely and exclusively to the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church". All others being absolutely excluded whatsoever ecclesiastical or lay position they may have.

    Even if you wanted to argue as Clemens Maria said, that this Decree belongs to the realm of Disciplinary Law and could potentially be reversible, who could reverse it? Only a legitimate Pope has the authority necessary to abrogate a disciplinary Constitution of a previous Pope. In this case, Pius X, an unquestionable legitimate successor of St. Peter.

    I know this is not what you or I want to hear, but it is what it is. Even conclavists must admit it, and they can become rather pathetic really fast (think Pope Michael). Reality does not go away just because we wish to. We, Catholic laywomen, personally don't need to be "waiting" for anything. What we need to do is saving our souls on a daily basis.
    So basically the Novus Ordo sect gets to hold the authority of the Catholic Church hostage until...... ? 
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #49 on: February 17, 2019, 08:22:42 PM »
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  • So basically the Novus Ordo sect gets to hold the authority of the Catholic Church hostage until...... ?

    The power of DESIGNATION remains under their control.  What's the alternative?  Pope Michael, who was elected pope by his mother and ex girlfriend?

    According to the principles of sedeprivationism, if Francis were to convert tomorrow, with a miraculous vision turning him into a new St. Pius X, the crisis is over.  What is sedevacantism's answer?  Thuc bishops gather and elect a new Pope?  In fact, why haven't they done it already?  Oh, wait, some have.  Good luck having the Universal Church accept that election.

    You keep beating your head against the wall because for some reason you cannot grasp the difference between the formal authority and the material office.


    Offline Judith 15 Ten

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #50 on: February 17, 2019, 08:27:18 PM »
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  • There are quite a lot of Cardinals. It's still a mass conversion.

    The number of "Cardinals" compared to the rest of the "episcopacy" and clerics in the Novus Ordo is much less. You're using the term "mass" (as in large) loosely, when a true mass conversion would be the conversions of the far higher number of "bishops" and priests outside of the "cardinalate", which is exactly what you implied because you misread what was posted by Cantarella. Just own your mistake.
    Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array? ~ Canticle of Canticles 6:9

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #51 on: February 17, 2019, 08:38:20 PM »
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  • So the heretics hold the power of designation.  Still sounds like they have the upper hand here... until Francis converts.  And what if he doesnt?  What if none of these cardinal-heretics convert?

    Meanwhile the men that are Catholic and are undoubtedly true bishops have their hands tied. I still think there has got to be another answer that lines up with Catholic teaching.

    Don't worry I'm not banging my head.  I just disagree that the Cassiciacuм Thesis is the answer. It places too much power in the hands of heretics.


    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #52 on: February 17, 2019, 09:49:31 PM »
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  • The power of DESIGNATION remains under their control.  What's the alternative?  Pope Michael, who was elected pope by his mother and ex girlfriend?

    According to the principles of sedeprivationism, if Francis were to convert tomorrow, with a miraculous vision turning him into a new St. Pius X, the crisis is over.  What is sedevacantism's answer?  Thuc bishops gather and elect a new Pope?  In fact, why haven't they done it already?  Oh, wait, some have.  Good luck having the Universal Church accept that election.
    Yes, it does seem unlikely at the moment but it’s the duty of the hierarchy to provide the Church with a pope so not holding an election is not an option.  The question isn’t whether it should be done or not but how it should be done such that there can be no reasonable objection by the existing clergy.
    That the Novus Ordo sect possesses the power of designation does not in my opinion qualify as a reasonable objection.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #53 on: February 17, 2019, 09:50:52 PM »
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  • It certainly isn’t required that the electors of the pope must have ordinary jurisdiction because otherwise how is it that the pope was elected in the past by the local clergy of Rome?

    That was probably long before the Ecuмenical Second Lateran Council in 1139 defined that the entire election of the Pope belonged exclusively to the Cardinals. Also, that the choice of Pope is left to the Cardinals, was re-affirmed in the Third Lateran Council (also Ecuмenical) in 1179, when it decreed "he, without any exception, is to be acknowledged as pontiff of the Universal Church who has been elected by two-thirds of the Cardinals."
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #54 on: February 17, 2019, 10:06:06 PM »
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  • That was probably long before the Ecuмenical Second Lateran Council in 1139 defined that the entire election of the Pope belonged exclusively to the Cardinals. Also, that the choice of Pope is left to the Cardinals, was re-affirmed in the Third Lateran Council (also Ecuмenical) in 1179, when it decreed "he, without any exception, is to be acknowledged as pontiff of the Universal Church who has been elected by two-thirds of the Cardinals."
    There was a controversy in the Middle Ages (I may have some of the details wrong but I think I have the gist of it here) where someone was accusing a pope of having gained the papacy by conspiring with a group of Cardinals to manipulate the election.  Which would have been a violation of the electoral law.  But theologians agreed that even if the law had been violated if the Cardinals and the bishops accepted the results, it was a legitimate election and the man elected was truly the pope.  If that election was valid, how much more valid would it have been if the violation of the law was necessary for the election to even take place?  So yes, the current law says that only the Cardinals can be electors but there are no members of the Church who are Cardinals so obviously the law cannot bind.  That’s a basic principle of law.  Look it up.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #55 on: February 17, 2019, 10:08:23 PM »
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  • The power of DESIGNATION remains under their control.  What's the alternative?  Pope Michael, who was elected pope by his mother and ex girlfriend?

    According to the principles of sedeprivationism, if Francis were to convert tomorrow, with a miraculous vision turning him into a new St. Pius X, the crisis is over.  What is sedevacantism's answer?  Thuc bishops gather and elect a new Pope?  In fact, why haven't they done it already?  Oh, wait, some have.  Good luck having the Universal Church accept that election.

    That is true. A Divine intervention of that nature would resolve the whole crisis by removing the "impediment". It really does not matter the destiny of the hundreds of Modernist bishops existing today, or what happens to the entire Novus Ordo hierarchy, as long as the Roman Catholic Papacy is fully restored. Everything hinges exclusively upon the person of the successor of St. Peter, where all Jurisdiction comes from.

    Another example of a bizarre conclavist attempt was that of The El Palmar the Troya, where a certain deluded individual "Clemente Dominguez" tried to make himself Pope and was known as "Pope Gregory XVII".
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #56 on: February 17, 2019, 10:47:36 PM »
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  • Do you really think Our Lord would allow the Lavender Mafia to designate the pope much less elect one?  They aren’t just a bunch of wayward men.  They are an organized religion consisting of an estimated 80% perverts who think child molestation is just boys being boys.  If they professed the Apostolic faith this crisis would be their fault.  But as it is they do not profess the Apostolic faith, they are not in communion with one another much less in communion with the saints. They have banal, unholy rites.  Their orders are not valid never mind holy.  They are not catholic because no saint from previous centuries would recognize their doctrine nor their liturgies.  You might as well assert that the devil himself has the power to designate.  I find that to be absurd.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #57 on: February 17, 2019, 11:12:15 PM »
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  • Yes, the Pope converting is the most likely way a solution will come. There are around 120 Cardinal electors. If the conservative Prelates are smart, at least a majority (it could be even 20 to 30 on the first ballot, later coming up to 50 to 60) will coalesce around the most conservative/Tradition-leaning candidate. A solution could come like that also.

    Fr. Kevin Cusick https://twitter.com/MCITLFrAphorism/status/986280515232821248 a Rorate Caeli contributor, said he was told Cardinal Burke is now a leading Papabile/candidate most likely to be elected when the next conclave comes.

    Pope Michael is hardly a solution. A conclave without the Roman clergy will always lead to a similar result regrettably. Cardinals are an ecclesiastical dignity, just like Archbishops. But you had Roman clergy with St. Peter and St. Paul in Rome (like St. Clement and St. Linus) right from Apostolic times.

    Then there are about 5100 Bishops in the universal Church. Trying to assemble all of them (or even a majority of them) at a general Council is very unlikely. I doubt the solution will come like that. Then, there are the jurisdiction issues. I doubt any Bishop will ever agree the last 5/6 Popes were never Popes in the first place, as they would radically undermine their own episcopal authority if they did.

    Maybe, they may pass judgment, or make the declaration of nullity against the current Pope in office, but that's it. More likely, the Cardinals will unite to elect the best possible candidate as Pope. Anyway, God is still in control. If in the next 10-15 years, God willing, a solution comes, we can plan how we will re-evangelize the world after that in the decades to come. Setting things right in the Church is only the first stage. Combatting aggressive secularism and all that is wrong in the world will have to take place anyway after that.

    Ven. Mary of Agreda says Christ has reserved the triumph over all heresies for His Blessed Mother, and it will be She Who in a special way will extend His reign over the Mohammedans near the end times. Also, the symbol of the moon under Her feet in Revelation is another indication from Sacred Scripture, like "She will crush your head" from Gen 3:15, that Mother Mary will play a special role in defeating this heresy of Islam and all other heresies. Let us pray for the conversion of all non-Christians to Christ and the Church.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #58 on: February 17, 2019, 11:17:44 PM »
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  • XavierSem, hope you are practicing making acts of perfect contrition.  Your priests, if they aren’t already invalid will soon be.

    Offline Judith 15 Ten

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #59 on: February 18, 2019, 12:02:14 AM »
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  • Don't worry I'm not banging my head.

    No, but maybe your neck is too stiff.
    Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array? ~ Canticle of Canticles 6:9