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Author Topic: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo  (Read 5215 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2019, 11:39:10 PM »
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  • Hey, Poche, +Francis may not have kissed the Koran, which is a heretical act and a grave sin against the 1st commandment,  but he did worse - he said that God wills that false religions exist.  This is outright heresy because it denies the dogma of the social Kingship of Christ and His Church!  From the inter-Faith docuмent:

    The pluralism and the diversity of religions, colour, sex, race and language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created human beings.

    https://novusordowatch.org/2019/02/apostasy-francis-diversity-of-religions/


    p.s. ...
    JPII did kiss the Koran though...one of his many heretical acts which he never publicly abjured.
    https://novusordowatch.org/2018/03/john-paul2-kissed-muslim-koran/


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #31 on: February 16, 2019, 11:43:41 PM »
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  • I think all that needs to happen is for the Catholic clergy of Rome to meet and elect a new pope.  Even if there are only a handful of Catholic clergy left in Rome.  And although it would be more difficult to do, I think a general council of the Catholic bishops of the whole world could also credibly elect a true pope.

    Only the College of Cardinals can elect a Pope. In the extraordinary absence of Cardinals, it is commonly believed that an imperfect General Council could do so, but it does require Jurisdiction, not only Holy Orders. Bishops or clergy without Jurisdiction cannot elect the Pope. And of course Catholic laity cannot elect the Pope, either.

    Only these in the hierarchy could have a decisive vote in the case of an imperfect General Council:

    CIC 1917, Canon 223:
    Quote
    There are to be called to the General Council the following persons who shall have a decisive vote:
     
    1. The Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, even those who are not bishops.
    2. The patriarchs, primates, archbishops, residential bishops, even those not yet consecrated.
    3. The abbots and prelates nullius.
    4. The abbot Primas, abbots who are superiors of Monastic Congregations, and the supreme heads of clerical exempt Orders of religious. The superiors general of other religious bodies are not to be called, unless the bull of convocation explicitly states that they are to be called. If titular bishops are called to the General Council, they have a decisive vote, unless it is otherwise stated in the convocation. The theologians and experts of the sacred Canons who may be invited to the General Council have but a consultive vote.

    In theory, even Cardinals, residential Bishops, abbots or prelates not yet consecrated could participate in said Council because they have Jurisdiction over a territory. But Titular Bishops without jurisdiction could be not convoked to the Council or have the right to vote. In the Cassisiacuм Thesis, the NO Cardinals still have the power to designate, as we know that it is impossible that the Church is left without possible electors of the legitimate successor of St. Peter.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #32 on: February 17, 2019, 12:13:49 AM »
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  • From the Constitution Vacante Apostolica Sede promulgated by Pope St. Pius X, 1904.

    On the election of the Roman Pontiff:

    Quote
    27. Ius eligendi Romanum Pontificem ad S. R. E. Cardinales unice et privative pertinet, excluso prorsus atque remoto quolibet cuiuspiam alterius Ecclesiasticae dignitatis, aut laicae potestatis cuiuslibet gradus et ordinis interventu (23).

    In this, Pope Pius X decrees that "the right to elect the Roman Pontiff belongs solely and exclusively to the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church", all others being absolutely excluded whatsoever ecclesiastical or lay position they may have.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #33 on: February 17, 2019, 12:22:34 AM »
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  • # 81 from the same Constitution is also of interest because it completely forbids the intervention of any civil or lay authority in the process of election of the Roman Pontiff. "This prohibition to be extended to all interventions, intercessions and other means whatsoever, in the order in which lay the authorities at all levels and become involved in the election of the Pontiff might wish to become".

    Quote
    81. Quae autem in memorata Nostra Constitutione Commissum Nobis de civili Veto seu Exclusiva, uti vocant, in electione Summi Pontificis ediximus et sanximus, hic omni ex parte atque integre renovantes, confirmata esse volumus. Quamobrem iterum in virtute sanctae obedientiae, sub interminatione divini iudicii et poena excommunicationis latae sententiae, omnes et singulos S. R. E. Cardinales, tam praesentes quam futuros, pariterque Secretarium S. Collegii Cardinalium aliosque omnes in Conclavi partem habentes, prohibemus ne, quovis praetextu, a quavis civili potestate munus recipiant Veto sive Exclusivam, etiam sub forma simplicis desiderii, proponendi. Ipsumve hoc Veto, qualibet ratione sibi cognitum, patefaciant sive universo Cardinalium Collegio simul congregato sive singulis purpuratis Patribus, sive scripto, sive ore, sive directo ac proxime, sive oblique ac per alios, sive ante Conclave sive ipso perdurante. Quam prohibitionem extendi volumus ad omnes interventus, intercessiones aliosque modos quoslibet, quibus laicae potestates cuiuslibet gradus et ordinis voluerint sese in Pontificis electione immiscere.


    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #34 on: February 17, 2019, 12:25:12 AM »
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  • Only the College of Cardinals can elect a Pope. In the extraordinary absence of Cardinals, it is commonly believed that an imperfect General Council could do so, but it does require Jurisdiction, not only Holy Orders. Bishops or clergy without Jurisdiction cannot elect the Pope. And of course Catholic laity cannot elect the Pope, either.

    Only these in the hierarchy could have a decisive vote in the case of an imperfect General Council:

    CIC 1917, Canon 223:
    In theory, even Cardinals, residential Bishops, abbots or prelates not yet consecrated could participate in said Council because they have Jurisdiction over a territory. But Titular Bishops without jurisdiction could be not convoked to the Council or have the right to vote. In the Cassisiacuм Thesis, the NO Cardinals still have the power to designate, as we know that it is impossible that the Church is left without possible electors of the legitimate successor of St. Peter.
    A disciplinary law which cannot reasonably be followed cannot bind. The legitimate electors by divine law can only consist of members of the clergy.  But who amongst the clergy can vote is a disciplinary law.  In the past it had been for a time the responsibility of the Roman clergy to elect the pope.  In an extraordinary situation they could do it again.  Keep in mind that the disciplinary laws concerning the papal elections were set by previous popes and were often ignored by the electors.  But those elections once confirmed not only by the electors but by the bishops of the Church were nevertheless legitimate.  The legitimacy of papal elections is something that has been treated by theologians prior to V2 and it is generally agreed that violations of the electoral rules do not invalidate an election that has been confirmed by the bishops.  But according to cuм Ex Apostolatus, heresy can invalidate an election even if the election was confirmed by the bishops.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #35 on: February 17, 2019, 12:49:46 AM »
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  • A disciplinary law which cannot reasonably be followed cannot bind. The legitimate electors by divine law can only consist of members of the clergy.  But who amongst the clergy can vote is a disciplinary law.  In the past it had been for a time the responsibility of the Roman clergy to elect the pope.  In an extraordinary situation they could do it again.  Keep in mind that the disciplinary laws concerning the papal elections were set by previous popes and were often ignored by the electors.  But those elections once confirmed not only by the electors but by the bishops of the Church were nevertheless legitimate.  The legitimacy of papal elections is something that has been treated by theologians prior to V2 and it is generally agreed that violations of the electoral rules do not invalidate an election that has been confirmed by the bishops.  But according to cuм Ex Apostolatus, heresy can invalidate an election even if the election was confirmed by the bishops.

    A couple of things come to mind. First, the "Roman Clergy" is composed also by the Cardinals. As a matter of fact, they are the main members of the "Roman Clergy", unless you are thinking of the "Roman Clergy" as exclusively referring to the lower status priests born and living in Rome or belonging to the Roman Diocese. Second, even in the total absence of any Cardinals, all the "Roman clergy" is Novus Ordo, and in full communion with Francis anyway, so for practical purposes, it makes absolutely no difference to us, if the electors were to be the College of Cardinals as it has been stipulated in Canonical Law since 1179 (and the Thesis of Des Lauriers preserves), or some lesser unknown members of the "Roman Clergy".

    CIC 1917, Canon 108 on the Clergy:

    Quote
    85. Those who have been assigned to the Divine ministry by the first tonsure, are called clerics. They are not all of the same degree, there is a sacred hierarchy by which one is subordinate to the other. This hierarchy which is of Divine institution by reason of the sacred orders, consists of bishops, priests and ministers; by reason of jurisdiction it consists of the supreme pontificate and the subordinate episcopate. By institution of the Church other degrees have been added. (Canon 108.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #36 on: February 17, 2019, 06:17:30 AM »
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  • A couple of things come to mind. First, the "Roman Clergy" is composed also by the Cardinals. As a matter of fact, they are the main members of the "Roman Clergy", unless you are thinking of the "Roman Clergy" as exclusively referring to the lower status priests born and living in Rome or belonging to the Roman Diocese. Second, even in the total absence of any Cardinals, all the "Roman clergy" is Novus Ordo, and in full communion with Francis anyway, so for practical purposes, it makes absolutely no difference to us, if the electors were to be the College of Cardinals as it has been stipulated in Canonical Law since 1179 (and the Thesis of Des Lauriers preserves), or some lesser unknown members of the "Roman Clergy".

    CIC 1917, Canon 108 on the Clergy:
    So, Cantarella, doesn't that mean that we are waiting for these men to convert to the Catholic Religion? Or for some "pope" they elect converts to the Catholic Religion?  Doesn't that place the future of the Catholic Church in the hands of heretics?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #37 on: February 17, 2019, 08:24:17 AM »
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  • So, Cantarella, doesn't that mean that we are waiting for these men to convert to the Catholic Religion? Or for some "pope" they elect converts to the Catholic Religion?  Doesn't that place the future of the Catholic Church in the hands of heretics?
    Well the only other option is that there are NO electors. 


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #38 on: February 17, 2019, 09:07:59 AM »
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  • Well the only other option is that there are NO electors.
    I don't know...is it?  If these men who DON'T have the Faith can have "material succession" and can be "electors", why can't the Traditional clergy who DO have the Faith have material succession and be electors?  

    I know there are many who think it is absolutely impossible for the Traditional clergy to be valid successors to the apostles, but as time marches on I wonder whether this is something that is just taken for granted in trad land.  

    I don't have the answers, but I can not look to the Novus Ordo heretic-"bishops" for the next true pope.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #39 on: February 17, 2019, 09:44:51 AM »
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  • I don't know...is it?  If these men who DON'T have the Faith can have "material succession" and can be "electors", why can't the Traditional clergy who DO have the Faith have material succession and be electors?  

    I know there are many who think it is absolutely impossible for the Traditional clergy to be valid successors to the apostles, but as time marches on I wonder whether this is something that is just taken for granted in trad land.  

    I don't have the answers, but I can not look to the Novus Ordo heretic-"bishops" for the next true pope.
    Well how would we know it's a legitimate conclave? Right now there are already a number of "traditionalist" anti-Popes.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #40 on: February 17, 2019, 09:53:12 AM »
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  • Well how would we know it's a legitimate conclave? Right now there are already a number of "traditionalist" anti-Popes.
    Granted, this is pie in the sky and would require a lot of things to happen beforehand, but what if ALL of the well-known traditional bishops united to elect a pope? How would that conclave be any less legitimate than all of the Novus Ordo "bishops" uniting to elect a "pope"?    
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline ggreg

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #41 on: February 17, 2019, 10:05:27 AM »
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  • Because some of them are already dead perhaps?
    Then it should say "two more worm-ridden popes will die"

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #42 on: February 17, 2019, 10:08:04 AM »
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  • Granted, this is pie in the sky and would require a lot of things to happen beforehand, but what if ALL of the well-known traditional bishops united to elect a pope? How would that conclave be any less legitimate than all of the Novus Ordo "bishops" uniting to elect a "pope"?    

    Regarding Papal elections, the authority remains in the Constitution Vacante Sede Apostolica, promulgated by Pius X, in 1904.  See # 17. "the right to elect the Roman Pontiff belongs solely and exclusively to the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church". All others being absolutely excluded whatsoever ecclesiastical or lay position they may have.

    Even if you wanted to argue as Clemens Maria said, that this Decree belongs to the realm of Disciplinary Law and could potentially be reversible, who could reverse it? Only a legitimate Pope has the authority necessary to abrogate a disciplinary Constitution of a previous Pope. In this case, Pius X, an unquestionable legitimate successor of St. Peter.

    I know this is not what you or I want to hear, but it is what it is. Even conclavists must admit it, and they can become rather pathetic really fast (think Pope Michael). Reality does not go away just because we wish to. We, Catholic laywomen, personally don't need to be "waiting" for anything. What we need to do is saving our souls on a daily basis.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #43 on: February 17, 2019, 11:08:52 AM »
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  • Regarding Papal elections, the authority remains in the Constitution Vacante Sede Apostolica, promulgated by Pius X, in 1904.  See # 17. "the right to elect the Roman Pontiff belongs solely and exclusively to the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church". All others being absolutely excluded whatsoever ecclesiastical or lay position they may have.

    Even if you wanted to argue as Clemens Maria said, that this Decree belongs to the realm of Disciplinary Law and could potentially be reversible, who could reverse it? Only a legitimate Pope has the authority necessary to abrogate a disciplinary Constitution of a previous Pope. In this case, Pius X, an unquestionable legitimate successor of St. Peter.

    I know this is not what you or I want to hear, but it is what it is. Even conclavists must admit it, and they can become rather pathetic really fast (think Pope Michael). Reality does not go away just because we wish to. We, Catholic laywomen, personally don't need to be "waiting" for anything. What we need to do is saving our souls on a daily basis.
    Yes but, following on from your logic here, it'd be impossible for us to ever have a Pope again bar a sudden mass conversion of the Novus Ordo clergy. And even that would have some issues, seeing as their validity is certainly in question. 

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Francis unveils new "Chrislam" Logo
    « Reply #44 on: February 17, 2019, 11:36:58 AM »
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  • Then it should say "two more worm-ridden popes will die"

    From the 1950's we had a series of wormy Jєω-popes, but the prophecy of two keeling- over on the same night implied a big event, a demarcation point.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi