Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan  (Read 1654 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15064
  • Reputation: +9980/-3161
  • Gender: Male
Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
« on: July 03, 2022, 08:19:28 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • A legacy of scandal: Pope Francis says he has ‘carried out’ plans laid during ‘pre-Conclave meetings’

    'I carried out the things that were asked then. I do not think there was anything original of mine. I set in motion what we all had requested.'
    Featured ImagePope Francis honored Cardinal Godfried Danneels (2nd from left) by letting him stand alongside the pope on the balcony on the night of his election on March 13, 2013.



    Louis Knuffke

    ANALYSIS
    VATICAN CITY (LifeSiteNews) When asked in a recent interview about the agenda and objectives of his pontificate, Pope Francis said he had “carried out the things that were asked,” referring to discussions among the cardinals at their “pre-Conclave meetings.” 

    “I picked up everything that we the Cardinals had said at the pre-Conclave meetings,” the pontiff related, “the things we believed the new Pope should do. Then, we spoke of the things that needed to be changed, the issues to tackle. I carried out the things that were asked then. I do not think there was anything original of mine. I set in motion what we all had requested.”

    The comments about the conclave were made in an interview with Argentina’s national news agency Télam. Then-Cardinal Theodore McCarrick was present at the pre-conclave meetings the Pope mentioned, though McCarrick was too old to vote in the conclave itself. Present also was Cardinal Walter Casper, the outspoken advocate of what later appeared in Amoris Laetitia.

    Donate Now
    From Amoris Laetitia to Pachamama – A legacy riddled with scandal
    In order to understand something of what might be meant by “the things that were asked then” in those pre-conclave meetings, it may be helpful to recall some of the notable happenings that have taken place during the current pontificate that have thrown the Church into serious crisis. 


    In 2016, Pope Francis published the Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia, in which he proposed that the divorced and remarried could be admitted to Holy Communion without the obligation to live in continence, contrary to the constant teaching and discipline of the Church, expressed by Pope John Paul II in Familiaris Consortio. When four cardinals formally asked for clarification on how this teaching was compatible with several fundamental revealed doctrines concerning the moral life, the life of grace, the sacraments of Marriage, Confession, and the Eucharist, as well as the teachings of Christ in the Gospel, they were met with utter silence from the Pope.


    Then in 2018, Pope Francis changed the Catechism of the Catholic Church on capital punishment, in which the universal magisterial teaching of the Church that it is always just for the State to have recourse to capital punishment for an irreparable and commensurate crime was set aside and replaced by the claim that capital punishment was “inadmissible” and “an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person.”


    Also in 2018, through Cardinal Parolin the Pope agreed to the Vatican-Beijing deal that handed over to the Chinese government, run by the Chinese Communist Party, the power to nominate the bishops of the Chinese “Catholic” Church, contrary to the current Code of Canon Law and the stance of both John Paul II and Benedict XVI. Cardinal Zen of Hong Kong denounced the deal as a complete betrayal of the underground Catholic Church in China, which has suffered for decades under persecution from the atheistic communist government of Beijing. The last time Cardinal Zen traveled to Rome for a meeting with the Pope, he was denied an audience.


    In 2019, the McCarrick scandal revealed many levels of corruption within the episcopacy, including cover-up by Pope Francis himself. The world summit of bishops in Rome that was subsequently called to address the problems in the Church that were uncovered by the McCarrick scandal, itself headed by pro-LGBTQ Fr. James Martin, refused to name McCarrick’s predominant crime: ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ adult rape—the rape of priests and seminarians who were under his episcopal authority. Following the scandal and laicization of the Cardinal, the American bishops formally requested that Rome release the full dossier on McCarrick, in particular revealing which episcopal appointments were due to McCarrick’s influence within the US and Rome. When the Vatican finally released its report, it was a retracted docuмent that failed to make known what the American bishops had specifically requested, leaving many to wonder whether the “Lavander mafia” within the episcopacy and in Rome had kept uncomfortable facts from being published. 


    Then there was the 2019 Amazonian Synod with its attendant scandals. First, there was the worship of the Pachamama, the pagan goddess of fertility who demands child sacrifice, whose cult is still practiced within the Andes of South America, whose name literally means “mother earth.” The idolatry took place in the Vatican Gardens in the presence of Pope Francis during a tree-planting ceremony, in which pagan shamans led participants in a dance around the statue, then offered incense, knelt, and bowed down to the ground in homage. The statue was subsequently carried in procession during a public praying of the Stations of the Cross in Rome, was given a place of prominence in the official conference hall for the Synod Fathers, and copies were placed at the altars of Santa Maria in Transpontina, from which they were removed by Austrian Alexader Tschugguel and thrown in the Tiber River in protest against the idolatry. Pope Francis was called to public repentanceby 100 priests and lay scholars, to which no response was ever made.


    Then the Amazonian Synod raised the question of allowing married priests and women priests within the Church. This prompted Cardinal Sarah to write the book From the Depths of Our Hearts, Priesthood, Celibacy and the Crisis of the Catholic Church, co-authored by Pope-Emeritus Benedict XVI, defending the apostolic practice of the Roman Church of only admitting celibate men to the priesthood, in imitation of Christ, who lived chaste celibacy, and who chose only men on whom to confer the dignity of the ordained priesthood. 


    In 2020, when the question of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ civil unions came up in Italy, the Pope lent his support to it, saying he had always supported civil protection for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ couples, even when he was a bishop in Argentina. “What we have to create is a civil union law,” the Pope said at the time. “That way they are legally covered. I stood up for that.”

    Now there is the ongoing Synod on Synodality, in which the German episcopacy and clergy have gone uncorrected by Rome in their wholesale public rejection of the Church’s teaching on ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and sɛҳuąƖ moral issues.

    Again, there is the new environmental paganismafforded by the Pope’s Laudato Si, according to which a new category of “sins against the earth” has been introduced into moral theology. Such “sins” in turn give rise to an apparent need for “environmental conversion” and “reparation to the earth.” These at best are pious euphemisms for accepting the climate-change propaganda of globalists who include in their agenda abortion and population control; at worst they are an outright pagan divinization of nature. Pope Francis said in his interview with Télam that Laudato Si was planned to be written for the Paris climate conference, claiming “nature is paying us back” for “slapping” it. 


    Earlier this year the structure of the Roman Curia was changed. Presently all offices have equal legal authority, whereas previously the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith enjoyed preeminence. Women have also been admitted to positions of governance within the Curia, contrary to John Paul II’s insistence that such roles be held by clerics.


    Regarding the matter of granting or refusing Holy Communion to pro-abortion politicians, last year the Pope reportedly encouraged pro-abortion President Joe Biden to continue receiving Communion. This past Wednesday at St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome, pro-abortion Nancy Peℓσѕι flaunted her disregard for the instructions of her own diocesan bishop, Archbishop Cordelione, that she was not to approach or be admitted to Communion because of her outspoken support of abortion. Peℓσѕι received Communion at a Mass presided over by Pope Francis, immediately after a personal audience with the Pope. The gesture is seen by some as not only a slight to Cordelione, but also as something of a response on the part of the Vatican to the June 24 landmark overturning of Roe v. Wade by the United States Supreme Court, a decision Peℓσѕι has vowed to fight, declaring again her intentions to push for a federal law allowing unrestricted abortions throughout the US.
    Finally, with the publication of Traditionis Custodeslast year, the Pope ushered in a new crisis for Catholics who love the Traditional Latin Mass, both priests and laymen. The severity of the restrictions on the celebration of the ancient form of the Roman Rite, concerning which Pope Francis doubled down just this week, has been justified in the name of a faithful implementation of Vatican II and its liturgical docuмents, while leveling heavy accusations of “disunity” and “rigidity” against those who wish to worship God in the form of the Catholic liturgy handed on by their fathers in the faith for two millennia.

    Much has happened in the pontificate of Pope Francis. It may be chilling to think that this was all part of a “pre-Conclave” plan.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
    « Reply #1 on: July 03, 2022, 08:45:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Interesting passages, of uncertain applicability, from JP II ‘s 1996 Constitution Universi Dominici Gregis:


    76. Should the election take place in a way other than that prescribed in the present Constitution, or should the conditions laid down here not be observed, the election is for this very reason null and void, without any need for a declaration on the matter; consequently, it confers no right on the one elected.

    77. I decree that the dispositions concerning everything that precedes the election of the Roman Pontiff and the carrying out of the election itself must be observed in full, even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff, in accordance with the provisions of Canon 333 § 2 of the Code of Canon Law and Canon 44 § 2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.

    CHAPTER VI
    MATTERS TO BE OBSERVED OR AVOIDED IN THE ELECTION
    OF THE ROMAN PONTIFF
    78. If — God forbid — in the election of the Roman Pontiff the crime of simony were to be perpetrated, I decree and declare that all those guilty thereof shall incur excommunication latae sententiae. At the same time I remove the nullity or invalidity of the same simoniacal provision, in order that — as was already established by my Predecessors — the validity of the election of the Roman Pontiff may not for this reason be challenged.23
    79. Confirming the prescriptions of my Predecessors, I likewise forbid anyone, even if he is a Cardinal, during the Pope's lifetime and without having consulted him, to make plans concerning the election of his successor, or to promise votes, or to make decisions in this regard in private gatherings.
    80. In the same way, I wish to confirm the provisions made by my Predecessors for the purpose of excluding any external interference in the election of the Supreme Pontiff. Therefore, in virtue of holy obedience and under pain of excommunication latae sententiae, I again forbid each and every Cardinal elector, present and future, as also the Secretary of the College of Cardinals and all other persons taking part in the preparation and carrying out of everything necessary for the election, to accept under any pretext whatsoever, from any civil authority whatsoever, the task of proposing the veto or the so-called exclusiva, even under the guise of a simple desire, or to reveal such either to the entire electoral body assembled together or to individual electors, in writing or by word of mouth, either directly and personally or indirectly and through others, both before the election begins and for its duration. I intend this prohibition to include all possible forms of interference, opposition and suggestion whereby secular authorities of whatever order and degree, or any individual or group, might attempt to exercise influence on the election of the Pope.
    81. The Cardinal electors shall further abstain from any form of pact, agreement, promise or other commitment of any kind which could oblige them to give or deny their vote to a person or persons. If this were in fact done, even under oath, I decree that such a commitment shall be null and void and that no one shall be bound to observe it; and I hereby impose the penalty of excommunication latae sententiae upon those who violate this prohibition. It is not my intention however to forbid, during the period in which the See is vacant, the exchange of views concerning the election.
    82. I likewise forbid the Cardinals before the election to enter into any stipulations, committing themselves of common accord to a certain course of action should one of them be elevated to the Pontificate. These promises too, should any in fact be made, even under oath, I also declare null and void.
    83. With the same insistence shown by my Predecessors, I earnestly exhort the Cardinal electors not to allow themselves to be guided, in choosing the Pope, by friendship or aversion, or to be influenced by favour or personal relationships towards anyone, or to be constrained by the interference of persons in authority or by pressure groups, by the suggestions of the mass media, or by force, fear or the pursuit of popularity. Rather, having before their eyes solely the glory of God and the good of the Church, and having prayed for divine assistance, they shall give their vote to the person, even outside the College of Cardinals, who in their judgment is most suited to govern the universal Church in a fruitful and beneficial way.

    https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_jp-ii_apc_22021996_universi-dominici-gregis.html

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
    « Reply #2 on: July 03, 2022, 10:19:00 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So he admits to being just an agent of a larger conspiracy.

    Quote
    I carried out the things that were asked then. I do not think there was anything original of mine. I set in motion what we all had requested.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
    « Reply #3 on: July 03, 2022, 10:23:18 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Cardinal electors shall further abstain from any form of pact, agreement, promise or other commitment of any kind which could oblige them to give or deny their vote to a person or persons. If this were in fact done, even under oath, I decree that such a commitment shall be null and void and that no one shall be bound to observe it; and I hereby impose the penalty of excommunication latae sententiae upon those who violate this prohibition. It is not my intention however to forbid, during the period in which the See is vacant, the exchange of views concerning the election.

    One would have to prove that the FORMER (of the two bolded sections) took place here rather than the LATTER.  So this allows people to conspire before the Conclave ... so long as they make no formal pact, agreement, or promise that would OBLIGE them to vote for any particular candidate.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
    « Reply #4 on: July 03, 2022, 10:24:40 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I love how they call out Bergoglio for the Pachamama but then remain silent about "Saint" JP2 the "Great" doing much worse at Assisi, with Buddhas on the tabernacle and all the other abominations which took place there.


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
    « Reply #5 on: July 03, 2022, 10:28:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Interesting passages, of uncertain applicability, from JP II ‘s 1996 Constitution Universi Dominici Gregis:


    76. Should the election take place in a way other than that prescribed in the present Constitution, or should the conditions laid down here not be observed, the election is for this very reason null and void, without any need for a declaration on the matter; consequently, it confers no right on the one elected.

    This passage confuses me:

    If no declaration is necessary, then how does the rest of the Church know that the man acting like a pope is not really pope?

    Another issue:

    This passage could be read to oppose/reject the “universal public assent” argument of Billot, since if JPII’s legislation prevails, it would mean the entire episcopate could be deceived into endorsing/recognizing an apparent pope who’s election had been covertly invalidated by this provision: There would be UPA, but to no avail.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
    « Reply #6 on: July 03, 2022, 11:02:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This passage confuses me:

    If no declaration is necessary, then how does the rest of the Church know that the man acting like a pope is not really pope?

    Another issue:

    This passage could be read to oppose/reject the “universal public assent” argument of Billot, since if JPII’s legislation prevails, it would mean the entire episcopate could be deceived into endorsing/recognizing an apparent pope who’s election had been covertly invalidated by this provision: There would be UPA, but to no avail.

    That UPA could be given unknowingly to a falsely elected pope, who nevertheless would still not be pope in light of this provision, is highly problematic to say the least!

    Its the main reason I side with Cajetan/JST, et al in the greater sede debate. 

    How would anyone ever know an election was invalid for running afoul of this provision, in the absence of a declaration to that effect??
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
    « Reply #7 on: July 03, 2022, 12:36:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This passage could be read to oppose/reject the “universal public assent” argument of Billot ...

    Yes, and so could Paul IV's cuм ex Apostolatus.  Yes, I understand that people argue that it's legislation and has been superseded, nevertheless, he clearly laid out the principle that even if the ENTIRE Church (all the Cardinals, bishops, etc.) accepted such a pope, he would nevertheless not be a legitimate pope.

    I especially don't agree with the notion of "convalidation", that an illegitimate election would be rendered valid through a sanatio by "Universal Acceptance".  We actually have a couple precedents in Church history where a legitimate pope was still alive (but in exile) and he was then replaced by another pope in Rome who was "universally" accepted as such while the legitimate pope still lived and had not resigned.

    UA is also problematic historically, when there was many times (before modern forms of communication) where large segments of the Church didn't know who the current pope was, much less if the election was irregular or being disputed.


    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4383
    • Reputation: +1628/-194
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
    « Reply #8 on: July 03, 2022, 01:54:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Interesting passages, of uncertain applicability, from JP II ‘s 1996 Constitution Universi Dominici Gregis:


    76. Should the election take place in a way other than that prescribed in the present Constitution, or should the conditions laid down here not be observed, the election is for this very reason null and void, without any need for a declaration on the matter; consequently, it confers no right on the one elected.

    77. I decree that the dispositions concerning everything that precedes the election of the Roman Pontiff and the carrying out of the election itself must be observed in full, even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff, in accordance with the provisions of Canon 333 § 2 of the Code of Canon Law and Canon 44 § 2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.

    CHAPTER VI
    MATTERS TO BE OBSERVED OR AVOIDED IN THE ELECTION
    OF THE ROMAN PONTIFF
    78. If — God forbid — in the election of the Roman Pontiff the crime of simony were to be perpetrated, I decree and declare that all those guilty thereof shall incur excommunication latae sententiae. At the same time I remove the nullity or invalidity of the same simoniacal provision, in order that — as was already established by my Predecessors — the validity of the election of the Roman Pontiff may not for this reason be challenged.23
    79. Confirming the prescriptions of my Predecessors, I likewise forbid anyone, even if he is a Cardinal, during the Pope's lifetime and without having consulted him, to make plans concerning the election of his successor, or to promise votes, or to make decisions in this regard in private gatherings.
    80. In the same way, I wish to confirm the provisions made by my Predecessors for the purpose of excluding any external interference in the election of the Supreme Pontiff. Therefore, in virtue of holy obedience and under pain of excommunication latae sententiae, I again forbid each and every Cardinal elector, present and future, as also the Secretary of the College of Cardinals and all other persons taking part in the preparation and carrying out of everything necessary for the election, to accept under any pretext whatsoever, from any civil authority whatsoever, the task of proposing the veto or the so-called exclusiva, even under the guise of a simple desire, or to reveal such either to the entire electoral body assembled together or to individual electors, in writing or by word of mouth, either directly and personally or indirectly and through others, both before the election begins and for its duration. I intend this prohibition to include all possible forms of interference, opposition and suggestion whereby secular authorities of whatever order and degree, or any individual or group, might attempt to exercise influence on the election of the Pope.
    81. The Cardinal electors shall further abstain from any form of pact, agreement, promise or other commitment of any kind which could oblige them to give or deny their vote to a person or persons. If this were in fact done, even under oath, I decree that such a commitment shall be null and void and that no one shall be bound to observe it; and I hereby impose the penalty of excommunication latae sententiae upon those who violate this prohibition. It is not my intention however to forbid, during the period in which the See is vacant, the exchange of views concerning the election.
    82. I likewise forbid the Cardinals before the election to enter into any stipulations, committing themselves of common accord to a certain course of action should one of them be elevated to the Pontificate. These promises too, should any in fact be made, even under oath, I also declare null and void.
    83. With the same insistence shown by my Predecessors, I earnestly exhort the Cardinal electors not to allow themselves to be guided, in choosing the Pope, by friendship or aversion, or to be influenced by favour or personal relationships towards anyone, or to be constrained by the interference of persons in authority or by pressure groups, by the suggestions of the mass media, or by force, fear or the pursuit of popularity. Rather, having before their eyes solely the glory of God and the good of the Church, and having prayed for divine assistance, they shall give their vote to the person, even outside the College of Cardinals, who in their judgment is most suited to govern the universal Church in a fruitful and beneficial way.

    https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_jp-ii_apc_22021996_universi-dominici-gregis.html

    Taken as a whole, this docuмent --- which I had not read before --- makes an incredibly strong case for Bergoglio's election having been invalid.

    As for this quote:

    When four cardinals formally asked for clarification on how this teaching was compatible with several fundamental revealed doctrines concerning the moral life, the life of grace, the sacraments of Marriage, Confession, and the Eucharist, as well as the teachings of Christ in the Gospel, they were met with utter silence from the Pope.

    It's because he can't reconcile it with traditional teaching on the Eucharist.

    Here is what they want to do, and I say "they" because it is Francis-Bergoglio and many, many others. 

    They want to create a third category of sin, "grave but not mortal", not venial sin, but not mortal sin either.   They are saying "yes, it's grave matter, yes, the sinner knows it is grave matter, and no, the sinner is not impeded in will, and has the choice of whether to do it or not, but because it is something that is so needful --- such as exercising conjugality within an invalid marriage, using contraception, or even expressing ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity physically --- they should not be regarded as having lost the state of grace and the Holy Spirit (they wouldn't say "Ghost"), and they may freely continue in their state, possibly repentant at some level but not repentant enough to give up the sin, and receive the sacraments in that state".  I've been able to see through this for over four decades now, and that's what is going on.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
    « Reply #9 on: July 03, 2022, 03:06:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, and so could Paul IV's cuм ex Apostolatus.  Yes, I understand that people argue that it's legislation and has been superseded, nevertheless, he clearly laid out the principle that even if the ENTIRE Church (all the Cardinals, bishops, etc.) accepted such a pope, he would nevertheless not be a legitimate pope.

    I especially don't agree with the notion of "convalidation", that an illegitimate election would be rendered valid through a sanatio by "Universal Acceptance".  We actually have a couple precedents in Church history where a legitimate pope was still alive (but in exile) and he was then replaced by another pope in Rome who was "universally" accepted as such while the legitimate pope still lived and had not resigned.

    UA is also problematic historically, when there was many times (before modern forms of communication) where large segments of the Church didn't know who the current pope was, much less if the election was irregular or being disputed.

    The irony here is that for sedes, for whom JP II’s provisions mean nothing, Billot could still be right (ie., his theory is not contradicted/overruled by this Constitution, because JPII is an imposter).

    Equally ironic is that for RR, JP II appears to have shot down Billot, thereby eliminating one of the more common arguments against sedevacantism.

    I don’t see either side coming out the winner.

    Regarding Lad’s thoughts on sanation/convalidation, I’m going to take a guess that for Billot, his UA was a theological deduction (ie., an illegitimately elected pope would be SO catastrophic for the Church and souls, that there must be something in the Church which precludes the very possibility, and this is what he came up with? 

    In any case, my primary perplexity still centers upon the notion that an illegitimately elected pope is invalid, with no declaration being necessary.  How would anyone ever know the pope is a nope??
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
    « Reply #10 on: July 03, 2022, 04:41:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The irony here is that for sedes, for whom JP II’s provisions mean nothing, Billot could still be right (ie., his theory is not contradicted/overruled by this Constitution, because JPII is an imposter).

    That's why I also cited Paul IV.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
    « Reply #11 on: July 03, 2022, 04:45:23 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In any case, my primary perplexity still centers upon the notion that an illegitimately elected pope is invalid, with no declaration being necessary.  How would anyone ever know the pope is a nope??

    God will sometimes allow the confusion, as He did during the Great Western Schism when nobody really knew with certainty who was the pope.  We can, however, know that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.  You try to paint this situation as if we're merely talking about a rogue pope who may or may not be a heretic, rather than what we see here with the Conciliar Church, an entire institution falsely claiming to be the Catholic Church.  That's why I've repeatedly stated that this isn't about the Pope primarily, but about the Church.  If there had been no Vatican II and no NOM and no 60+ years of erroneous teaching from this "Magisterium," and all we had was a Bergoglio running around spouting heretical propositions, then we lay people would have no stake in this whatsoever, and my attitude would be "it's not my problem; let the Cardinals sorted out."  But given that we have this false Church, it becomes our problem.  If the Conciliar Church were the Catholic Church, then we would be obliged to remain in communion with it and to accept the direction given to the Church by the Holy Spirit through Vatican II and the NOM.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
    « Reply #12 on: July 03, 2022, 04:54:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That's why I also cited Paul IV.

    Right, but you seemed to acknowledge (?), CEA has been superceded several times (e.g., partially by the 1917 CIC, and fully by Pius XII), so citing him doesn't really tip the scales back in your favor.

    There's also the issue of Billot writing well after Paul IV/CEA, but nobody challenging his UA theory as a violation of the former (at least, no Church authority doing so).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
    « Reply #13 on: July 03, 2022, 08:09:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Right, but you seemed to acknowledge (?), CEA has been superceded several times ...

    :facepalm:

    That's utterly irrelevant, as I have explained to you a half dozen times, but it doesn't seem to sink in.  In stating that even if the entire Church were to accept an illegitimate pope, he would still not be pope, that rejects (contradicts) the notion of Universal Acceptance IN PRINCIPLE.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Francis Talks 2013 Pre-Conclave Plan
    « Reply #14 on: July 03, 2022, 09:12:57 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • :facepalm:

    That's utterly irrelevant, as I have explained to you a half dozen times, but it doesn't seem to sink in.  In stating that even if the entire Church were to accept an illegitimate pope, he would still not be pope, that rejects (contradicts) the notion of Universal Acceptance IN PRINCIPLE.

    So, because you provide no doctrine to back up your unsupported assertion, readers can either accept your opinion, or the opinion of the eminent Billot.

    What do you think a reasonable person would do?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."