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Author Topic: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty  (Read 3692 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2018, 12:55:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: DLaurentius on August 04, 2018, 11:02:21 AM
    You are correct. It is highly inappropriate to use honorific titles for clerics who been formally declared heretics, schismatics, or apostates.

    However, no person currently on this Earth has the authority to declare His Holiness Pope Francis to be a formal heretic. If his statements on the death penalty are in fact heretical, he might only be a material heretic. A future Pope or council will have the authority, if necessary, to declare some former Popes to be formal heretics. Currently, I provisionally accept that His Holiness Pope Francis is a valid Pope and that he is not a formal heretic.
    One should call a spade a spade. Do you believe with certainty of faith that he is a pope? Would you give up your life for your belief?
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #31 on: August 04, 2018, 01:09:54 PM »
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    • Quote
    However, no person currently on this Earth has the authority to declare His Holiness Pope Francis to be a formal heretic. If his statements on the death penalty are in fact heretical, he might only be a material heretic. A future Pope or council will have the authority, if necessary, to declare some former Popes to be formal heretics. Currently, I provisionally accept that His Holiness Pope Francis is a valid Pope and that he is not a formal heretic.

    I can't believe people today are still debating the issue of material / formal heresy in regards to the conciliar "popes". The global political infiltration is so evident; no theological explanation alone is sufficient for this crisis.  

    The situation is not about the alleged heresies of the "pope" whether they are formal or material; but about the infallibility of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church (how it is compromised).

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    Offline Charlemagne

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #32 on: August 04, 2018, 01:14:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: DLaurentius on August 04, 2018, 11:02:21 AM
    However, no person currently on this Earth has the authority to declare His Holiness Pope Francis to be a formal heretic. If his statements on the death penalty are in fact heretical, he might only be a material heretic. A future Pope or council will have the authority, if necessary, to declare some former Popes to be formal heretics. Currently, I provisionally accept that His Holiness Pope Francis is a valid Pope and that he is not a formal heretic.
    Do you consider the NOM to be valid and/or licit?
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    "This principle is most certain: The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope. The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member. Now, he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others. Therefore, the manifest heretic cannot be Pope." -- St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #33 on: August 04, 2018, 01:44:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 04, 2018, 12:55:55 PM
    One should call a spade a spade. Do you believe with certainty of faith that he is a pope? Would you give up your life for your belief?

    So the sede thesis now includes that non-sedes must be willing to give their life for the pope? Wow...that's just ridiculous. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #34 on: August 04, 2018, 01:47:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 04, 2018, 01:44:26 PM
    So the sede thesis now includes that non-sedes must be willing to give their life for the pope? Wow...that's just ridiculous.

    He did not say for the pope. He said for his belief.

    Although, love for the Pope, the successor of St. Peter and true Vicar of Christ on earth, is the mark per excellence of the Roman Catholic.
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #35 on: August 04, 2018, 01:51:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on August 04, 2018, 01:47:38 PM
    He did not say for the pope. He said for his belief.

    Although, love for the Pope, the successor of St. Peter and true Vicar of Christ on earth, is the mark per excellence of the Roman Catholic.

    My mistake. Correction: so the sede thesis now includes that we must be willing to give our lives for our belief that Francis is the Pope. Sounds like an inquisition. Not surprising that a sede would think of the issue in that manner, which is extreme, but then sedevacantism is extreme. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #36 on: August 04, 2018, 02:37:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 04, 2018, 12:55:55 PM
    Would you give up your life for your belief?
    .
    When subjected to capital punishment one gives up his life. 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #37 on: August 04, 2018, 02:55:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: JPaul on August 03, 2018, 04:12:12 PM
    His holiness is a heretic!  Tradition is truly in shambles, when it continues to raise the bar beyond all reason, to keep him from being called what he clearly is.  They have betrayed the faithful on so many levels, and they think that because they still provide a valid mass that it clears them of the responsibility for making excuses for this man's doctrinal doodlings and heretical explorations.  

    The sheep are at the mercy of the wolves!
                       
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    Offline DLaurentius

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #38 on: August 04, 2018, 04:29:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Charlemagne on August 04, 2018, 01:14:29 PM
    Do you consider the NOM to be valid and/or licit?
    The Novus Ordo Mass is a Protestantized Mass. I consider it to generally be valid, but I certainly would not recommend attending it.
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    Offline DLaurentius

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #39 on: August 04, 2018, 05:15:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 04, 2018, 12:55:55 PM
    One should call a spade a spade. Do you believe with certainty of faith that he is a pope? Would you give up your life for your belief?
    I accept him as a valid Pope because a proper authority has not yet declared him to be an anti-Pope. I can only hope and pray that I would have the courage to give my life for that belief if necessary. 
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    "Nam, etsi ambulavero in medio umbrae mortis, non timebo mala, quoniam tu mecuм es. Virga tua, et baculus tuus, ipsa me consolata sunt." - Psalmi 22:4

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #40 on: August 04, 2018, 05:29:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: DLaurentius on August 04, 2018, 05:15:58 PM
    I accept him as a valid Pope because a proper authority has not yet declared him to be an anti-Pope.

    I accept him as a doubtful pope, materially legitimate but otherwise doubtful.  What you wrote doesn't sound that you believe he's legitimate with the certainty of faith.  Otherwise, you couldn't write that.  Consequently, you don't REALLY accept him.  Papal legitimacy must be known with the certainty of faith.
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    Offline Charlemagne

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #41 on: August 04, 2018, 06:01:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: DLaurentius on August 04, 2018, 04:29:21 PM
    The Novus Ordo Mass is a Protestantized Mass. I consider it to generally be valid, but I certainly would not recommend attending it.
    Using your standard, what "proper authority" declared the NOM to be a protestantized Mass? Those who consider Francis-Bergoglio to be an illegitimate or at least doubtful pope recognize the same protestant deficiencies in him, namely, he's not a Catholic, same as the NOM isn't Catholic. (FWIW, I consider it to be valid but illicit. I believe Our Lord is made present but only by an illegal act performed by criminals, just as He was present before Pontius Pilate but only by an illegal act performed by criminals. He's a prisoner Who's mocked in the NOM as much as He was as He stood before the Sanhedrin and suffered its mockery, but only by His will. Fiat voluntas tua.) It's rank hypocrisy for R&Rs to criticize sedevacantists, sedeprivationists (of whom I'm one), and sededoubtists (Ladislaus) for using "private judgment" to recognize Francis-Bergoglio as a spade and label him as such, when R&Rs themselves use "private judgment" to recognize the NOM as a spade and label it as such (as we all should). In actuality, of course, none of this is "private judgment"; it's good, old-fashioned sensus Catholicus. Bottom line: Either we're all "guilty" or none of us are.
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    "This principle is most certain: The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope. The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member. Now, he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others. Therefore, the manifest heretic cannot be Pope." -- St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline DLaurentius

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #42 on: August 04, 2018, 07:23:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 04, 2018, 05:29:32 PM
    I accept him as a doubtful pope, materially legitimate but otherwise doubtful.  What you wrote doesn't sound that you believe he's legitimate with the certainty of faith.  Otherwise, you couldn't write that.  Consequently, you don't REALLY accept him.  Papal legitimacy must be known with the certainty of faith.
    It is possible that His Holiness Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's resignation was invalid if he was forced to resign. In that case, he would still be the reigning Pope. However, he says he resigned freely and acknowledges His Holiness Pope Francis as his legitimate successor. Also, there is not enough evidence yet to clearly prove that he was forced to resign. So at this time, I provisionally accept His Holiness Pope Francis as the valid Pope.

    But I could be wrong on my position, just like St. Vincent Ferrer was wrong in accepting Anti-Pope Benedict XIII.

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    "Nam, etsi ambulavero in medio umbrae mortis, non timebo mala, quoniam tu mecuм es. Virga tua, et baculus tuus, ipsa me consolata sunt." - Psalmi 22:4

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #43 on: August 04, 2018, 08:19:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: DLaurentius on August 04, 2018, 04:29:21 PM
    The Novus Ordo Mass is a Protestantized Mass. I consider it to generally be valid, but I certainly would not recommend attending it.

    If the Catholic Church gives us a *Protestantized" Rite of Mass (and to top it off, makes it the official Latin Rite which the "Holy Father" Himself celebrates daily) then it is reasonable to believe that She is not what She says She is.

    Somehow, it was not really the Catholic Church which promulgated the *Protestantized" Mass, unless you think "Protestantized" is good; for Holy Mother Church cannot give us something bad or mediocre, especially regarding something of the magnitude of a Liturgical Rite. That would constitute a clear defection in safeguarding the Divine Liturgy.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis Strikes (Out) Again -- the Death Penalty
    « Reply #44 on: August 04, 2018, 09:10:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: DLaurentius on August 04, 2018, 05:15:58 PM
    I accept him as a valid Pope because a proper authority has not yet declared him to be an anti-Pope. I can only hope and pray that I would have the courage to give my life for that belief if necessary.
    Questions for you:

    (1) Who would that proper authority be? another Novus Ordo cleric who believes and professes the same Vatican 2 heresies as Francis? And if Francis is a valid pope and no one can make a private judgement that he has lost his office who is even allowed to judge a true and valid pope?

    (2) What would Francis have to do or say that would lead you to believe he lost his office or at least probably lost his office? approving female priests? Approving ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity?  In other words, how far do your goal posts move?

    Comment: I will give you credit for at least tackling Francis recent heretical antics.  Most posters on this forum seem to be avoiding the main issue...either by not posting/ignoring it or attacking those that are not ignoring it and making no substantive, thoughtful comments.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)
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