Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: GottmitunsAlex on July 09, 2015, 01:35:46 PM
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(http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1447758/evo-morales-pope-francis.png?w=736)
Francis has received a rather unusual gift from Bolivia's first indigenous president Evo Morales during his visit to Latin America: a crucifix carved into a wooden hammer and sickle, the Communist symbol of the union of labour and peasants.
Morales praised Francis as someone who is "helping in the liberation of our people". He gifted the pontiff with a cross with the Communist symbol similar to the one belonging to Father Luis Espinal, a Jesuit priest who was detained, tortured and killed by Bolivia's paramilitary squads.
"Remember one of our brothers, a victim of interests that didn't want him to fight for Bolivia's freedom," Francis, a Jesuit himself, said from the popemobile to a crowd. "Father Espinal preached the Gospel, the Gospel that bothered them, and because of this they got rid of him."
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/pope-francis-receives-communist-hammer-sickle-cross-bolivia-president-1510071 (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/pope-francis-receives-communist-hammer-sickle-cross-bolivia-president-1510071)
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(http://www.adelantelafe.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Evo-Papa-hoz-martillo.jpg)
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In another thread on this topic TKGS said:
OK. I just looked it up. This is the president of Bolivia giving the hammer and sickle crucifix to Bergoglio. All of the captions tell us that Bergoglio was not "thrilled" with the presentation and one quotes him as saying "That's not right". But in the youtube videos I found, the audio is very poor and I can't even make out the Spanish words spoken let alone understand them.
I will say that Bergoglio looked surprised and rather taken aback when the gift was first presented to him. He did not have a "for me??" kind of look but a "what in the world??" kind of look. However, his facial expressions changed to the one in the photo above. He clearly did not know what was coming. However, he also clearly accepted the gift and stood for photos of the presentation.
I cannot imagine any traditional bishop (with one certain exception who is trying to reconcile with Modernist Vatican) who would stand there and gracefully accept such a gift. I can hear the Conciliar apologists now: "Well, he didn't kiss it, after all!"
So I did a quick search and found this:
Pope rebukes Bolivian President Morales for hammer-and-sickle crucifix (https://autodiscover.avemariaradio.net/pope-rebukes-bolivian-president-morales-for-hammer-and-sickle-crucifix/)
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In another thread on this topic TKGS said:
OK. I just looked it up. This is the president of Bolivia giving the hammer and sickle crucifix to Bergoglio. All of the captions tell us that Bergoglio was not "thrilled" with the presentation and one quotes him as saying "That's not right". But in the youtube videos I found, the audio is very poor and I can't even make out the Spanish words spoken let alone understand them.
I will say that Bergoglio looked surprised and rather taken aback when the gift was first presented to him. He did not have a "for me??" kind of look but a "what in the world??" kind of look. However, his facial expressions changed to the one in the photo above. He clearly did not know what was coming. However, he also clearly accepted the gift and stood for photos of the presentation.
I cannot imagine any traditional bishop (with one certain exception who is trying to reconcile with Modernist Vatican) who would stand there and gracefully accept such a gift. I can hear the Conciliar apologists now: "Well, he didn't kiss it, after all!"
So I did a quick search and found this:
Pope rebukes Bolivian President Morales for hammer-and-sickle crucifix (https://autodiscover.avemariaradio.net/pope-rebukes-bolivian-president-morales-for-hammer-and-sickle-crucifix/)
NOPE. He did not say " Eso no está bien" (that is not right).
He said "No sabía eso". (I didn't know that). Referring to the story of that crucifix regarding "fr" Luis Espinal.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/kq-c0wG3evg[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-c0wG3evg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-c0wG3evg)
Francis must missed class the day they were talking about "Divinis Redemptoris" by Pius XI in the liberation theology seminary.....
right
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NOPE. He did not say " Eso no está bien" (that is not right).
He said "No sabía eso". (I didn't know that). Referring to the story of that crucifix regarding "fr" Luis Espinal.
Thank you for the information. I tried to go to the website referenced by PerEvangelicaDicta but found problems with the connection.
Bergoglio is clearly not displeased with the presentation.
Francis must missed class the day they were talking about "Divinis Redemptoris" by Pius XI in the liberation theology seminary.....
right
Actually, I think he missed class the day they taught "Catholicism".
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So I did a quick search and found this:
Pope rebukes Bolivian President Morales for hammer-and-sickle crucifix (https://autodiscover.avemariaradio.net/pope-rebukes-bolivian-president-morales-for-hammer-and-sickle-crucifix/)
He's already wearing a necklace with the same hammer and sickle "crucifix":
(https://avemariaradio.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/crucifix_this-1024x722-1024x722.jpg)
Zoom in on the picture and you can clearly see it.
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So I did a quick search and found this:
Pope rebukes Bolivian President Morales for hammer-and-sickle crucifix (https://autodiscover.avemariaradio.net/pope-rebukes-bolivian-president-morales-for-hammer-and-sickle-crucifix/)
He's already wearing a necklace with the same hammer and sickle "crucifix":
(https://avemariaradio.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/crucifix_this-1024x722-1024x722.jpg)
Zoom in on the picture and you can clearly see it.
And that picture is from the very link claiming he "rebuked" Morales.
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Maybe someone gave it to him as gift.
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Maybe someone gave it to him as a gift?
Isn't hammer and sickle a symbol of communism ?
It's south-american for -peez en lohf-
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Maybe someone gave it to him as gift.
Well obviously someone did, but the point is that he shouldn't even put himself in such situations in the first place because as you can see then he ends up giving approval to blasphemous things in front of the whole world.
A "rebuke" would be ridiculous because he did wrong by going to see that person in the first place.
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Maybe someone gave it to him as gift.
Well obviously someone did, but the point is that he shouldn't even put himself in such situations in the first place because as you can see then he ends up giving approval to blasphemous things in front of the whole world.
A "rebuke" would be ridiculous because he did wrong by going to see that person in the first place.
Well said
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The other day he received gift from Budists.
Yes, he should be the one giving out gift of green scapular. And booklet about converting to Catholicism.
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Maybe someone gave it to him as gift.
And if so, he should follow the instruction as contained in the St. Pius X catechism regarding prottie "bibles":
"Q. What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?
A. A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest."
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Maybe someone gave it to him as gift.
And if so, he should follow the instruction as contained in the St. Pius X catechism regarding prottie "bibles":
"Q. What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?
A. A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest."
Wow is that really in there? I've never read that catechism because I don't have it.
What page/question number is it?
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Maybe someone gave it to him as gift.
And if so, he should follow the instruction as contained in the St. Pius X catechism regarding prottie "bibles":
"Q. What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?
A. A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest."
Wow is that really in there? I've never read that catechism because I don't have it.
What page/question number is it?
It's Question 32. I don't know the page number.
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Maybe someone gave it to him as gift.
And if so, he should follow the instruction as contained in the St. Pius X catechism regarding prottie "bibles":
"Q. What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?
A. A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest."
Wow is that really in there? I've never read that catechism because I don't have it.
What page/question number is it?
It's Question 32. I don't know the page number.
Thanks, I'll check it out.
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I should clarify, Disputaciones: It's Question 32 under "On the Virtues and Vices > Theological Virtues > On Holy Scripture."
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I must say, I am surprised at the gift francis brought. The virgin and child mosaic appears to be quite nice. The eyes seem to be different than those in tradition. But, it doesn't really strike me as a problem.
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Bolivia’s President Evo Morales drew a rebuke from Pope Francis when he presented the Pontiff with a crucifix mounted on a hammer and sickle.
“That’s not right,” the Pope said when he saw the crucifix combined with the symbol of Communism. The incident occurred during the traditional exchange of gifts as the Pope paid a courtesy call on the Bolivian leader.
Morales—who has a penchant for mixing Communist ideology and pagan rituals with Catholic symbols—has had a tense relationship with the Church since becoming president of Bolivia in 2006. He once referred to the Church as his “main enemy.”
Pope Francis appeared to be taken aback by the unusual gift. Bolivian officials explained that it was a replica of a crucifix made by Father Luis Espinal, a Jesuit human-rights activist who was killed in 1980. The Pope had paused to pray at the site of the priest’s death before arriving at the presidential palace.
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=25477
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Bolivia’s President Evo Morales drew a rebuke from Pope Francis when he presented the Pontiff with a crucifix mounted on a hammer and sickle.
“That’s not right,” the Pope said when he saw the crucifix combined with the symbol of Communism. The incident occurred during the traditional exchange of gifts as the Pope paid a courtesy call on the Bolivian leader.
Morales—who has a penchant for mixing Communist ideology and pagan rituals with Catholic symbols—has had a tense relationship with the Church since becoming president of Bolivia in 2006. He once referred to the Church as his “main enemy.”
Pope Francis appeared to be taken aback by the unusual gift. Bolivian officials explained that it was a replica of a crucifix made by Father Luis Espinal, a Jesuit human-rights activist who was killed in 1980. The Pope had paused to pray at the site of the priest’s death before arriving at the presidential palace.
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=25477
No.. He did not say " Eso no está bien" (that is not right).
Francis said "No sabía eso". (I didn't know that). Referring to the story of a communist-crucifix just like the one he received from Morales which was owned by "Fr" Luis Espinal. The Jesuit communist priest who was "Martyred" in Bolivia by the then-anti-communist regime of Gen. Luis García Meza Tejada.
Btw, Francis also accepted the hammer and sickle pendant and chain as well.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/kq-c0wG3evg[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-c0wG3evg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-c0wG3evg)
Francis must of missed class the day they were talking about "Divinis Redemptoris" by Pius XI in the liberation theology seminary.....
right
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(http://albaciudad.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/11218215_10207203133376619_5905369196635061808_n.jpg)
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The other day he received gift from Budists.
Yes, he should be the one giving out gift of green scapular. And booklet about converting to Catholicism.
That is why we have dialog.
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[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/zZG3vHuT8Gc[/youtube]
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The other day he received gift from Budists.
Yes, he should be the one giving out gift of green scapular. And booklet about converting to Catholicism.
That is why we have dialog.
You well know the Novus Ordo officially says this is NOT the purpose of "dialogue", and the Novus Ordo NEVER does any of this anyways.
Why do you lie?
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Bolivia’s President Evo Morales drew a rebuke from Pope Francis when he presented the Pontiff with a crucifix mounted on a hammer and sickle.
“That’s not right,” the Pope said when he saw the crucifix combined with the symbol of Communism. The incident occurred during the traditional exchange of gifts as the Pope paid a courtesy call on the Bolivian leader.
Morales—who has a penchant for mixing Communist ideology and pagan rituals with Catholic symbols—has had a tense relationship with the Church since becoming president of Bolivia in 2006. He once referred to the Church as his “main enemy.”
Pope Francis appeared to be taken aback by the unusual gift. Bolivian officials explained that it was a replica of a crucifix made by Father Luis Espinal, a Jesuit human-rights activist who was killed in 1980. The Pope had paused to pray at the site of the priest’s death before arriving at the presidential palace.
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=25477
Filial piety is not piety at all when it involves straight-up lying, Poche.
Where is your filial piety to Our Heavenly Father, Who was blasphemed and outraged by this atrocity which you're attempting to whitewash?
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The other day he received gift from Budists.
Yes, he should be the one giving out gift of green scapular. And booklet about converting to Catholicism.
That is why we have dialog.
Poche, this comment tempts me to tell you to go to hell, but I will refrain out of a desire to not be uncharitable... or redundant.
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Bolivia’s President Evo Morales drew a rebuke from Pope Francis when he presented the Pontiff with a crucifix mounted on a hammer and sickle.
“That’s not right,” the Pope said when he saw the crucifix combined with the symbol of Communism. The incident occurred during the traditional exchange of gifts as the Pope paid a courtesy call on the Bolivian leader.
Morales—who has a penchant for mixing Communist ideology and pagan rituals with Catholic symbols—has had a tense relationship with the Church since becoming president of Bolivia in 2006. He once referred to the Church as his “main enemy.”
Pope Francis appeared to be taken aback by the unusual gift. Bolivian officials explained that it was a replica of a crucifix made by Father Luis Espinal, a Jesuit human-rights activist who was killed in 1980. The Pope had paused to pray at the site of the priest’s death before arriving at the presidential palace.
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=25477
These little "defenses" of the indefensible are truly pathetic. I can't believe this has been going on the entire time since the conciliar "popes" showed up.
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As Gottmittunsalex pointed out, there was no rebuke. He merely shook his head and said "I didn't know that", in reference to the Jesuit who was the original artist of the blasphemy. Evo Morales replied clearly: "Now you know it.".
There was no rebuke, and those who are saying it are misinformed.
There were some other interesting things form this visit. Supposedly Francis chewed coca leaves, for which the excuse of his one lung was given. Either way it is reported that he chewed coca leaves while in Bolivia. (This made me remember the cocaine that was intercepted last year that was coming to Vatican City, I don't know why.)
Also Francis said something about a one-world government and a nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr of economic awareness where the riches of the world are shared. This is a very loose paraphrase. Certainly the sources exist in English somewhere or will eventually. I'm going to go back to ignoring Francis now. Have a nice day.
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The other day he received gift from Budists.
Yes, he should be the one giving out gift of green scapular. And booklet about converting to Catholicism.
That is why we have dialog.
You well know the Novus Ordo officially says this is NOT the purpose of "dialogue", and the Novus Ordo NEVER does any of this anyways.
Why do you lie?
He lies because he's the model modernist: Deceive and lie but mix in just enough "piety" to hide under the cover of plausible deniability. Matthew must have the patience of Job to have not banned him already.
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The other day he received gift from Budists.
Yes, he should be the one giving out gift of green scapular. And booklet about converting to Catholicism.
That is why we have dialog.
You well know the Novus Ordo officially says this is NOT the purpose of "dialogue", and the Novus Ordo NEVER does any of this anyways.
Why do you lie?
He lies because he's the model modernist: Deceive and lie but mix in just enough "piety" to hide under the cover of plausible deniability. Matthew must have the patience of Job to have not banned him already.
In true charity, I concur.
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The other day he received gift from Budists.
Yes, he should be the one giving out gift of green scapular. And booklet about converting to Catholicism.
That is why we have dialog.
Probably won't do any good but what the hey:
"Pope" Francis:
'Dialogue means Renouncing the Claim that our Ideas and Traditions Alone are Valid or Absolute'
LINK (http://www.novusordowatch.org/wire/chaos-frank-on-dialogue.htm)
BAM!, as Mike Voris would say.
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The other day he received gift from Budists.
Yes, he should be the one giving out gift of green scapular. And booklet about converting to Catholicism.
That is why we have dialog.
Poche, this comment tempts me to tell you to go to hell, but I will refrain out of a desire to not be uncharitable... or redundant.
Why be upset? I thought that giving out green scapulars and booklets about conversionj to Catholicism is a good way to start a conversation. The dialog should lead to conversion to the Catholic Faith.
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The other day he received gift from Budists.
Yes, he should be the one giving out gift of green scapular. And booklet about converting to Catholicism.
That is why we have dialog.
You well know the Novus Ordo officially says this is NOT the purpose of "dialogue", and the Novus Ordo NEVER does any of this anyways.
Why do you lie?
I don't think it is a lie. The ultimate goal of dialogue is conversion to the Catholic Faith. For exampe now we have the personal ordiariates decreed by Pope Benedict for Anglicans who want to convert as a community.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_apc_20091104_anglicanorum-coetibus.html
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The other day he received gift from Budists.
Yes, he should be the one giving out gift of green scapular. And booklet about converting to Catholicism.
That is why we have dialog.
You well know the Novus Ordo officially says this is NOT the purpose of "dialogue", and the Novus Ordo NEVER does any of this anyways.
Why do you lie?
I don't think it is a lie. The ultimate goal of dialogue is conversion to the Catholic Faith. For exampe now we have the personal ordiariates decreed by Pope Benedict for Anglicans who want to convert as a community.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_apc_20091104_anglicanorum-coetibus.html
Did you not see my post above?
The so-called Anglican conversions are a lie, they still retain heretical Anglican heresies and practices.
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The other day he received gift from Budists.
Yes, he should be the one giving out gift of green scapular. And booklet about converting to Catholicism.
That is why we have dialog.
You well know the Novus Ordo officially says this is NOT the purpose of "dialogue", and the Novus Ordo NEVER does any of this anyways.
Why do you lie?
I don't think it is a lie. The ultimate goal of dialogue is conversion to the Catholic Faith. For exampe now we have the personal ordiariates decreed by Pope Benedict for Anglicans who want to convert as a community.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_apc_20091104_anglicanorum-coetibus.html
Did you not see my post above?
The so-called Anglican conversions are a lie, they still retain heretical Anglican heresies and practices.
He saw it, but refuses to acknowledge it, so he just ignores it.
That's an intellectual dishonesty that is tantamount to bold-faced lying, and it is maddeningly endemic to line-toeing Novus Ordites (particularly clerics), who never acknowledge plain truths which contradict their errors, even when said truths are shoved in their faces. They simply ignore it, smile blankly, and go about their business as usual. If anyone wonders why I believe Poche is a plant - possibly even a NO priest or some other paid shill, then that practiced, politician-like selective acknowledgement of truth which he displays here and elsewhere, is why.
And even if he's not a shill, it's at least a clear demonstration of a perniciously wilfull refusal to face up to error of Conciliarism and come at last to Catholic Tradition. That fact alone, in my opinion, is sufficient grounds for banning him.
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Pope Says He Wasn't Offended by 'Communist Crucifix' (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_REL_VATICAN_COMMUNIST_CRUCIFIX?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-07-13-10-01-45)
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From Vatican Insider
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/francesco-sudamerica-42350/
What did you feel when President Morales gave you the crucifix with the hammer and anvil? And where did it end up?[/b]
“I was curious, I didn't know Fr. Espinal was a sculptor and also a poet. I learned about it in these past few days, I saw it and for me it was a surprise. It can be categorised as a form protest art. In Buenos Aires, some years ago, there was an exhibition displaying the works of a good sculptor, a creative Argentine who is now dead. It was protest art, and I remember one piece was a crucified Christ on a falling bomber: a criticism against Christianity but because of its alliance with imperialism. I would qualify it as protest art, that in some cases can be offensive. In this particular case, Fr. Espinal was killed in 1980. This was a time when Liberation Theology had many different branches. One of these branches used the Marxist analysis of reality and Fr. Espinal shared these ideas. I knew this because that year I was rector of the theology faculty and we talked a lot about it.” In the same year, the Society’s general, Fr. Arrupe, sent a letter to the Jesuits asking them to stop the Marxist analysis of reality and four years later, in 1984, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith published the first docuмent, which is critical, and the second, which opens up to more Christian viewpoints. Espinal was an enthusiast of this Marxist analysis and he produced this work. His poetry also belongs to that genre. It was his life, his way of thinking. He was a special man abounding in human genius, a man of good faith. Let us interpret it this way: I understand this piece and I did not find it offensive. I carry it with me. I left the decorative honours which President Morales gave me behind… I have never accepted such decorations but Morales acted in good faith, to please me, so I thought of it as coming from the people. I prayed it over and I thought I would leave them with Our Lady of Copacabana, so they go to the shrine. The wooden Christ I took with me.”
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A clear demonstration that subjectivist thinking is ruinous, to this pope, and to those who use similar subjective arguments to defend him.
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A clear demonstration that subjectivist thinking is ruinous, to this pope, and to those who use similar subjective arguments to defend him.
Attempting to defend the indefensible is an exercise in futility.
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From Vatican Insider
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/francesco-sudamerica-42350/
What did you feel when President Morales gave you the crucifix with the hammer and anvil? And where did it end up?[/b]
“I was curious, I didn't know Fr. Espinal was a sculptor and also a poet. I learned about it in these past few days, I saw it and for me it was a surprise. It can be categorised as a form protest art. In Buenos Aires, some years ago, there was an exhibition displaying the works of a good sculptor, a creative Argentine who is now dead. It was protest art, and I remember one piece was a crucified Christ on a falling bomber: a criticism against Christianity but because of its alliance with imperialism. I would qualify it as protest art, that in some cases can be offensive. In this particular case, Fr. Espinal was killed in 1980. This was a time when Liberation Theology had many different branches. One of these branches used the Marxist analysis of reality and Fr. Espinal shared these ideas. I knew this because that year I was rector of the theology faculty and we talked a lot about it.” In the same year, the Society’s general, Fr. Arrupe, sent a letter to the Jesuits asking them to stop the Marxist analysis of reality and four years later, in 1984, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith published the first docuмent, which is critical, and the second, which opens up to more Christian viewpoints. Espinal was an enthusiast of this Marxist analysis and he produced this work. His poetry also belongs to that genre. It was his life, his way of thinking. He was a special man abounding in human genius, a man of good faith. Let us interpret it this way: I understand this piece and I did not find it offensive. I carry it with me. I left the decorative honours which President Morales gave me behind… I have never accepted such decorations but Morales acted in good faith, to please me, so I thought of it as coming from the people. I prayed it over and I thought I would leave them with Our Lady of Copacabana, so they go to the shrine. The wooden Christ I took with me.”
How could be possibly be a surprise if, as everyone knows, every single detail of a papal visit (an international if that, and with a President!) is carefully planned ahead, including words, gifts, and probably even gestures. It is part of the Vatical diplomacy.
It is extremely difficult to believe that it was indeed a surprise to him and it is very unfortunate to see that he accepted the hideous gift and kept it, althought frankly, it was to be expected given the undeniable signs of the communist agenda (liberation theology, "Church of the poor") Pope Francis has continuously displayed during his pontificate.
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At least John Paul II had the fortitude to wag his finger at the Nicaraguan (Cardenal).
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A. A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest."
[/b]
I'd just use it as target practice for a new pistol or rifle. :smile: