I want to say another thing that I said when I came back from Colombia, speaking of the experience in Cartagena and the other cities, a thing that we don’t see in Europe, that is, the pride, in this case of the Panamanians. You lift up the children and they say to you, “this is my victory,” “this is my future,” “this is my pride.” This in the midst of the demographic winter we’re living in Europe. In Italy, below zero. It has to make us think. What is my pride? Tourism? The villa [home]? The dog? Or lifting up a child? Thanks! Pray for me, I need it.https://aleteia.org/2019/01/28/pope-its-in-the-confessional-where-you-best-understand-abortion/?utm_medium=aleteia_en&utm_campaign=english_page&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2u7Kh4hj_pFIRKWGON5OjBBfq3jUsa7zOi140OCIYBragDcOkwLWbWpzw#Echobox=1548705627
Bishop Fellay expressed the same theological premise from the pulpit, three years ago in San Francisco, prior to the "Walk for Life" rally.
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Extrapolating from Baptism of Desire & Blood, he claimed that aborted babies were martyred and thus baptized in their own blood.
The SSPX has always been admittedly weak in the theological department.
But making-up Catholic theology for fun or to fit with modernist approval is surely sinning mortally.
Extrapolating from Baptism of Desire & Blood, he claimed that aborted babies were martyred and thus baptized in their own blood.
“I advise many times (to post-abortive women) — when they call, they have this anguish: ‘Your child is in heaven, talk to him. Sing to him the lullaby that you have not sung… you have not been able to sing to him.’ And there is a way for the mother to reconcile with her child.
If what We have said up to now concerns the protection and care of natural life, much more so must it concern the supernatural life, which the newly born receives with Baptism. In the present economy there is no other way to communicate that life to the child who has not attained the use of reason. Above all, the state of grace is absolutely necessary at the moment of death without it salvation and supernatural happiness—the beatific vision of God—are impossible. An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism; to the still unborn or newly born this way is not open.
I tell you, this heretical script is coming from the rabbis ...
If Bp. Fellay said that, he is an idiot, just like Francis. For if they thought about it one iota, they have just given the world the way to personally 100% guarantee Heaven for their children and the children of everyone else, just abort them. It is the easiest way to save the families of non-Catholics, just have them abort their children. Margaret Sanger would then be the greatest saint ever, and Planned Parenthood has saved more people than the Catholic Church.
Francis - Your aborted child is in heaven,
Bishop Fellay - expressed the same theological premise from the pulpit, three years ago in San Francisco, prior to the "Walk for Life" rally.
Extrapolating from Baptism of Desire & Blood, he claimed that aborted babies were martyred and thus baptized in their own blood.
If Bp. Fellay said that, he is an idiot, just like Francis. For if they thought about it one iota, they have just given the world the way to personally 100% guarantee Heaven for their children and the children of everyone else, just abort them. It is the easiest way to save the families of non-Catholics, just have them abort their children. Margaret Sanger would then be the greatest saint ever, and Planned Parenthood has saved more people than the Catholic Church.
If Bp. Fellay said that, he is an idiot, just like Francis. For if they thought about it one iota, they have just given the world the way to personally 100% guarantee Heaven for their children and the children of everyone else, just abort them. It is the easiest way to save the families of non-Catholics, just have them abort their children. Margaret Sanger would then be the greatest saint ever, and Planned Parenthood has saved more people than the Catholic Church.Mine is a "first hand" account of what Bp. Fellay said.
Extrapolating from Baptism of Desire & Blood, he claimed that aborted babies were martyred and thus baptized in their own blood.Some of them certainly might have been. It's not too far-fetched to think that, as rabidly anti-Catholic and anti-Christ as abortionists are (cf. Margaret Sanger), abortion is a modern-day "slaughter of the Innocents," a phrase Pope Pius XI even used (Divini (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121929_divini-illius-magistri.html) §73) to describe children "in godless schools and associations" that teach, "according to the theories of advanced socialism," "irreligion and hatred".
Some of them certainly might have been. It's not too far-fetched to think that, as rabidly anti-Catholic and anti-Christ as abortionists are (cf. Margaret Sanger), abortion is a modern-day "slaughter of the Innocents," a phrase Pope Pius XI even used (Divini (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121929_divini-illius-magistri.html) §73) to describe children "in godless schools and associations" that teach, "according to the theories of advanced socialism," "irreligion and hatred".Wait, so you're suggesting that women who have abortions think, "I hate the Catholic Faith, therefore I will abort"?
Some of them certainly might have been. It's not too far-fetched to think that, as rabidly anti-Catholic and anti-Christ as abortionists are (cf. Margaret Sanger), abortion is a modern-day "slaughter of the Innocents," a phrase Pope Pius XI even used (Divini (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121929_divini-illius-magistri.html) §73) to describe children "in godless schools and associations" that teach, "according to the theories of advanced socialism," "irreligion and hatred".How so?
Wait, so you're suggesting that women who have abortions think, "I hate the Catholic Faith, therefore I will abort"?I mentioned abortionists (which usually aren't the mothers).
Added: Furthermore, what is with the change in the title of this thread (to say something that is NOT taught by the Catholic Church)?Are you saying the Catholic Church does not teaching one can be baptized by desire or blood?
I mentioned abortionists (which usually aren't the mothers).Are you saying the Catholic Church does not teaching one can be baptized by desire or blood?
Their proximate formal motive in doing the procedure is to make money. Simply because they also happen to hate the Church, it doesn't mean that it's their motive in performing the abortion.Thank you. With Geremia's recent posts here and elsewhere I wonder whether he is Novus Ordo.
This kind of BoB is nonsense anyway. There's no active and willful witness to the faith on the part of the babies. Baby A gets killed by a doctor who's doing it because he despises Christ ... and goes to heaven. Baby B gets killed by a doctor who doesn't care about Christ but just wants to make money ... and goes to Limbo. And the Holy Innocents do not prove BoB for infants ... since they died before Baptism had even been instituted ... under the old dispensation.
I mentioned abortionists (which usually aren't the mothers).Are you saying the Catholic Church does not teaching one can be baptized by desire or blood?Germania,
just changing the thread title again
This kind of BoB is nonsense anyway.Can you give an example of how someone could be baptized by blood today, then?
There's no active and willful witness to the faith on the part of the babies.That's required for baptism by blood?
How so?possibly
Did they believe the Faith?
Some have said that in the case of the Innocents the use of their free will was miraculously accelerated, so that they suffered martyrdom even voluntarily. Since, however, Scripture contains no proof of this, it is better to say that these babes in being slain obtained by God's grace the glory of martyrdom which others acquire by their own will. For the shedding of one's blood for Christ's sake takes the place of Baptism.
So if I'm killed by a mugger in the alley who also happens to hate the Catholic Church, I'm a martyr?possibly
So if I'm killed by a mugger in the alley who also happens to hate the Catholic Church, I'm a martyr?Ladislaus,
possiblyThe Catholic way of speaking to the public ( as opposed to speaking to oneself) is to bring forward dogma, and quotes by the Fathers of the Church and saints that have stood the test of time. The Protestant way of speaking to the public is to bring forward personal opinions. Does the writer of the post above have anything to counter these quotes?
All I'm arguing is that some (not necessarily all) aborted babies could (not necessarily are) be baptized by desire or by blood. I am not denying that some (if not all) aborted babies today go to limbo.
It's much more probable that by "heaven" naturalistic Bergoglio meant a naturalistic "heaven" (= limbo).
possibly:facepalm:
All I'm arguing is that some (not necessarily all) aborted babies could (not necessarily are) be baptized by desire or by blood. I am not denying that some (if not all) aborted babies today go to limbo.
It's much more probable that by "heaven" naturalistic Bergoglio meant a naturalistic "heaven" (= limbo).
The Catholic way of speaking to the public ( as opposed to speaking to oneself) is to bring forward dogma, and quotes by the Fathers of the Church and saints that have stood the test of time. The Protestant way of speaking to the public is to bring forward personal opinions. Does the writer of the post above have anything to counter these quotes?None of these quotes prove babies cannot be baptized by desire or by blood.
Dogma - “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of God, [the sacrosanct Roman Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, ... but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently…” -Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, February 4, 1442
"Likewise, whoever says that those children who depart out of this life without partaking of that Sacrament (Baptism) are alive in Christ, certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration and condemns the universal Church, in which it is the practice to lose no time and run in haste to administer Baptism to infant children, because it is believed as an indubitable truth, that otherwise they cannot be made alive in Christ." -Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church, Epistle 167, AD 415
"If you want to be a Catholic do not believe, do not say, and do not teach that infants carried off by death before they are baptized can attain the remission of original sin." - Saint Augustine, Father, Doctor, and Bishop of the Church, On the Soul and its Origin Book II
“The idea that infants can be granted the rewards of eternal life without even the grace of baptism is utterly foolish.” -Pope Saint Innocent I, Letter to the Bishops of the Church, 417 AD
"[Those dying with only original sin on their souls will suffer] no other pain, whether from material fire or from the worm of conscience, except the pain of being deprived forever of the vision of God." -Pope Innocent III (1160-1216), Corp. Juris, Decret. l. III, tit. xlii, c. iii -- Majores
To assert that all aborted babies must go to limbo seems to deny God's omnipotence.
denial of BoD/BoB denies God's omnipotence and also His mercy.I don't understand your point. It's not Catholic to deny BoD & BoB anyways.
None of these quotes prove babies cannot be baptized by desire or by blood.That is likely because you do not want to see anything that proves that babies must be baptized to be saved. You do not have eyes to see, because you choose to be blind. The quotes are very clear, BOD and BOB are not sacraments, the quotes are speaking of the sacrament of baptism and two of them very precisely even say the sacrament of baptism.
7. Whether the children who died in original sin were delivered by Christ?
I answer that, As stated above (Article 6 (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4052.htm#article6)), Christ's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) descent into hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm) had its effect of deliverance on them only who through faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) and charity (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) were united to Christ's Passion (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm), in virtue (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15472a.htm) whereof Christ's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) descent into hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm) was one of deliverance. But the children who had died in original sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm) were in no way united to Christ's Passion (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm) by faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) and love: for, not having the use of free will (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm), they could have no faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) of their own; nor were they cleansed from original sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm) either by their parents' faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) or by any sacrament of faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm). Consequently, Christ's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) descent into hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm) did not deliver the children from thence. And furthermore, the holy (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07386a.htm) Fathers were delivered from hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm) by being admitted to the glory (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm) of the vision of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364a.htm), to which no one can come except through grace (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm); according to Romans 6:23 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom006.htm#verse23): "The grace (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) is life everlasting." Therefore, since children dying in original sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm) had no grace (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm), they were not delivered from hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm).
Reply to Objection 1. The holy (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07386a.htm) Fathers, although still held bound by the debt of original sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm), in so far as it touches human (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) nature (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm), were nevertheless delivered from all stain of sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) by faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) in Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm): consequently, they were capable of that deliverance which Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) brought by descending into hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm). But the same cannot be said of the children, as is evident from what was said above.
Consequently, Christ's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) descent into hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm) did not deliver the children from thence. And furthermore, the holy (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07386a.htm) Fathers were delivered from hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm) by being admitted to the glory (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm) of the vision of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364a.htm), to which no one can come except through grace (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm); according to Romans 6:23 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom006.htm#verse23): "The grace (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) is life everlasting." Therefore, since children dying in original sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm) had no grace (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm), they were not delivered from hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm).St Thomas’ logic also applies to the “invincibly” ignorant, aren’t delivered from Hell because they have not grace. (though I highly doubt that these individuals even exist because once a child reaches the age of reason, they are enlightened as to the realities of the natural law (at least), so no one can be said to be “invincibly” ignorant of the 10 commandments.)
Baptism of Desire ... is an act of divine charity or perfect contrition... These means (i.e. Baptism of Blood & Desire) presuppose in the recipient at least the implicit will to receive the sacrament... Even an infant can gain the benefit of the Baptism of Blood if he is put to death by a person actuated by hatred for the Christian faith...
St Thomas’ logic also applies to the “invincibly” ignorant, aren’t delivered from Hell because they have not grace. (though I highly doubt that these individuals even exist because once a child reaches the age of reason, they are enlightened as to the realities of the natural law (at least), so no one can be said to be “invincibly” ignorant of the 10 commandments.)
Fr. Francis O’Connell, C.Ss.R., Outlines of Moral Theology (1953), as quoted on the last page of Conlon's Sources of Baptism of Blood & Baptism of Desire (https://archive.org/details/SourcesOfBaptismOfBloodBaptismOfDesire/page/n179):Baptism of Desire ... is an act of divine charity or perfect contrition... These means (i.e. Baptism of Blood & Desire) presuppose in the recipient at least the implicit will to receive the sacrament... Even an infant can gain the benefit of the Baptism of Blood if he is put to death by a person actuated by hatred for the Christian faith...
Nothing but gratuitous modernist/heretical trash. There's no theological proof for this assertion whatsoever.Where is your "theological proof for" seeming to think that the use of reason is necessary for baptism by blood?
Where is your "theological proof for" seeming to think that the use of reason is necessary for baptism by blood?LOL, what proof has Geremia supplied for anything he's speculated on here? He might as well quote the CCC, if he's going to use a quote from a nobody from 1953. He can't quote dogma, Church Fathers, Saints and he asks for theological proof?
what proof has Geremia supplied for anything he's speculated on here?
There's no theological proof for this assertion whatsoever.See what I posted here (https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/aborted-babies-baptism-of-blood/msg642711/#msg642711).