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Author Topic: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven  (Read 1659 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: Aborted babies CAN be baptized by desire or blood.
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2019, 04:43:59 PM »
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  • Some of them certainly might have been. It's not too far-fetched to think that, as rabidly anti-Catholic and anti-Christ as abortionists are (cf. Margaret Sanger), abortion is a modern-day "slaughter of the Innocents," a phrase Pope Pius XI even used (Divini §73) to describe children "in godless schools and associations" that teach, "according to the theories of advanced socialism," "irreligion and hatred".
    How so?
    Did they believe the Faith?
    It might make people feel good, but no Sacrament has been given.
    At best, the baby souls go to Limbo.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies CAN be baptized by desire or blood.
    « Reply #16 on: February 01, 2019, 05:38:35 PM »
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  • Wait, so you're suggesting that women who have abortions think, "I hate the Catholic Faith, therefore I will abort"?
    I mentioned abortionists (which usually aren't the mothers).
    Added: Furthermore, what is with the change in the title of this thread (to say something that is NOT taught by the Catholic Church)?
    Are you saying the Catholic Church does not teaching one can be baptized by desire or blood?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aborted babies CAN be baptized by desire or blood.
    « Reply #17 on: February 01, 2019, 05:42:48 PM »
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  • I mentioned abortionists (which usually aren't the mothers).Are you saying the Catholic Church does not teaching one can be baptized by desire or blood?

    Their proximate formal motive in doing the procedure is to make money.  Simply because they also happen to hate the Church, it doesn't mean that it's their motive in performing the abortion.

    This kind of BoB is nonsense anyway.  There's no active and willful witness to the faith on the part of the babies.  Baby A gets killed by a doctor who's doing it because he despises Christ ... and goes to heaven.  Baby B gets killed by a doctor who doesn't care about Christ but just wants to make money ... and goes to Limbo.  And the Holy Innocents do not prove BoB for infants ... since they died before Baptism had even been instituted ... under the old dispensation.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Aborted babies CAN be baptized by desire or blood.
    « Reply #18 on: February 01, 2019, 06:16:53 PM »
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  • Their proximate formal motive in doing the procedure is to make money.  Simply because they also happen to hate the Church, it doesn't mean that it's their motive in performing the abortion.

    This kind of BoB is nonsense anyway.  There's no active and willful witness to the faith on the part of the babies.  Baby A gets killed by a doctor who's doing it because he despises Christ ... and goes to heaven.  Baby B gets killed by a doctor who doesn't care about Christ but just wants to make money ... and goes to Limbo.  And the Holy Innocents do not prove BoB for infants ... since they died before Baptism had even been instituted ... under the old dispensation.
    Thank you.  With Geremia's recent posts here and elsewhere I wonder whether he is Novus Ordo.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Aborted babies CAN be baptized by desire or blood.
    « Reply #19 on: February 01, 2019, 07:19:25 PM »
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  • I mentioned abortionists (which usually aren't the mothers).Are you saying the Catholic Church does not teaching one can be baptized by desire or blood?
    Germania,
    Francis is teaching an open door to Heaven, ignoring Original Sin.
    This is false. The Catholic impetus has always been to get the "Gateway" Sacrament, so our children have a fighting chance for Heaven.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aborted Babies Cannot Go to Heaven
    « Reply #20 on: February 01, 2019, 07:29:43 PM »
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  • just changing the thread title again

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aborted Babies Cannot Go to Heaven
    « Reply #21 on: February 01, 2019, 07:30:20 PM »
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  • just changing the thread title again

    I believe that if you change the subject line at the top of the page, it messes the Thread title up in some contexts.  I think that's a bug in the software.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #22 on: February 01, 2019, 07:32:53 PM »
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  • So if I'm killed by a mugger in the alley who also happens to hate the Catholic Church, I'm a martyr?


    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies CAN be baptized by desire or blood.
    « Reply #23 on: February 01, 2019, 09:23:38 PM »
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  • This kind of BoB is nonsense anyway.
    Can you give an example of how someone could be baptized by blood today, then?
    There's no active and willful witness to the faith on the part of the babies.
    That's required for baptism by blood?
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies CAN be baptized by desire or blood.
    « Reply #24 on: February 01, 2019, 09:29:29 PM »
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  • How so?
    Did they believe the Faith?
    possibly
    II-II q. 124 a. 1 ad 1:
    Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas
    Some have said that in the case of the Innocents the use of their free will was miraculously accelerated, so that they suffered martyrdom even voluntarily. Since, however, Scripture contains no proof of this, it is better to say that these babes in being slain obtained by God's grace the glory of martyrdom which others acquire by their own will. For the shedding of one's blood for Christ's sake takes the place of Baptism.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #25 on: February 01, 2019, 09:35:59 PM »
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  • So if I'm killed by a mugger in the alley who also happens to hate the Catholic Church, I'm a martyr?
    possibly
    All I'm arguing is that some (not necessarily all) aborted babies could (not necessarily are) be baptized by desire or by blood. I am not denying that some (if not all) aborted babies today go to limbo.

    It's much more probable that by "heaven" naturalistic Bergoglio meant a naturalistic "heaven" (= limbo).
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #26 on: February 01, 2019, 09:45:30 PM »
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  • So if I'm killed by a mugger in the alley who also happens to hate the Catholic Church, I'm a martyr?
    Ladislaus,
    This topic is degenerating, but you did hit on an important point, which is, what are the rules for martyrdom?
    In context to pro-aborts wanting to murder pro-lifers, how could we  make ourselves martyrs out of the event?
    I think we need to solicit +W's opinion?
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #27 on: February 02, 2019, 04:31:06 AM »
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  • possibly
    All I'm arguing is that some (not necessarily all) aborted babies could (not necessarily are) be baptized by desire or by blood. I am not denying that some (if not all) aborted babies today go to limbo.

    It's much more probable that by "heaven" naturalistic Bergoglio meant a naturalistic "heaven" (= limbo).
    The Catholic way of speaking to the public ( as opposed to speaking to oneself) is to bring forward dogma, and quotes by the Fathers of the Church and  saints that have stood the test of time. The Protestant way of speaking to the public is to bring forward personal opinions. Does the writer of the post above have anything to counter these quotes?

    Dogma - “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of God, [the sacrosanct Roman Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, ... but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently…” -Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, February 4, 1442

    "Likewise, whoever says that those children who depart out of this life without partaking of that Sacrament (Baptism) are alive in Christ, certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration and condemns the universal Church, in which it is the practice to lose no time and run in haste to administer Baptism to infant children, because it is believed as an indubitable truth, that otherwise they cannot be made alive in Christ." -Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church, Epistle 167, AD 415

    "If you want to be a Catholic do not believe, do not say, and do not teach that infants carried off by death before they are baptized can attain the remission of original sin." - Saint Augustine, Father, Doctor, and Bishop of the Church, On the Soul and its Origin Book II

    “The idea that infants can be granted the rewards of eternal life without even the grace of baptism is utterly foolish.” -Pope Saint Innocent I, Letter to the Bishops of the Church, 417 AD

    "[Those dying with only original sin on their souls will suffer] no other pain, whether from material fire or from the worm of conscience, except the pain of being deprived forever of the vision of God." -Pope Innocent III (1160-1216), Corp. Juris, Decret. l. III, tit. xlii, c. iii -- Majores





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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #28 on: February 02, 2019, 06:42:52 AM »
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  • possibly
    All I'm arguing is that some (not necessarily all) aborted babies could (not necessarily are) be baptized by desire or by blood. I am not denying that some (if not all) aborted babies today go to limbo.

    It's much more probable that by "heaven" naturalistic Bergoglio meant a naturalistic "heaven" (= limbo).
    :facepalm:
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #29 on: February 02, 2019, 12:19:01 PM »
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  • The Catholic way of speaking to the public ( as opposed to speaking to oneself) is to bring forward dogma, and quotes by the Fathers of the Church and  saints that have stood the test of time. The Protestant way of speaking to the public is to bring forward personal opinions. Does the writer of the post above have anything to counter these quotes?

    Dogma - “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of God, [the sacrosanct Roman Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, ... but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently…” -Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, February 4, 1442

    "Likewise, whoever says that those children who depart out of this life without partaking of that Sacrament (Baptism) are alive in Christ, certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration and condemns the universal Church, in which it is the practice to lose no time and run in haste to administer Baptism to infant children, because it is believed as an indubitable truth, that otherwise they cannot be made alive in Christ." -Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church, Epistle 167, AD 415

    "If you want to be a Catholic do not believe, do not say, and do not teach that infants carried off by death before they are baptized can attain the remission of original sin." - Saint Augustine, Father, Doctor, and Bishop of the Church, On the Soul and its Origin Book II

    “The idea that infants can be granted the rewards of eternal life without even the grace of baptism is utterly foolish.” -Pope Saint Innocent I, Letter to the Bishops of the Church, 417 AD

    "[Those dying with only original sin on their souls will suffer] no other pain, whether from material fire or from the worm of conscience, except the pain of being deprived forever of the vision of God." -Pope Innocent III (1160-1216), Corp. Juris, Decret. l. III, tit. xlii, c. iii -- Majores
    None of these quotes prove babies cannot be baptized by desire or by blood.

    To assert that all aborted babies must go to limbo seems to deny God's omnipotence.

    Can someone please give me an example of how one can be baptized by desire or by blood today? If it's not possible, then why does the Church teach it?
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