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Author Topic: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal  (Read 3549 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

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Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
« on: April 13, 2023, 07:07:05 AM »
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  • In the video linked below, Fr. Francois Chazal admits that Jorge Bergoglio is not canonically elected, but Father still accepts him as pope.  Why?

    Start at the 1 hr. and 13 minutes mark.

    https://youtu.be/Oj1CRkVO_9Y?t=4377

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #1 on: April 14, 2023, 04:47:08 AM »
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  • Can no one answer thus question? 


    Offline trento

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #2 on: April 14, 2023, 04:59:50 AM »
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  • It seems like a schizophrenic position to hold. Maybe this is due to Father Chazal's association with Father Kramer who's a Bennyvacantist, but now that B16 is dead, aren't all Bennyvacantists considered sedevacantists?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #3 on: April 14, 2023, 05:42:06 AM »
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  • It seems like a schizophrenic position to hold. Maybe this is due to Father Chazal's association with Father Kramer who's a Bennyvacantist, but now that B16 is dead, aren't all Bennyvacantists considered sedevacantists?
    Perhaps, but I didn't think Fr Chazal was ever a Bennyvacantist. 

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #4 on: April 14, 2023, 06:46:18 AM »
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  • It seems like a schizophrenic position to hold. Maybe this is due to Father Chazal's association with Father Kramer who's a Bennyvacantist, but now that B16 is dead, aren't all Bennyvacantists considered sedevacantists?

    Are you stating that Fr. Paul Kramer's position is schizophrenic?  If so, why?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #5 on: April 14, 2023, 07:22:51 AM »
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  • Are you stating that Fr. Paul Kramer's position is schizophrenic?  If so, why?

    I believe he was referring to Father Chazal's statement to the effect that he recognizes Bergoglio as Pope even though he was not canonically elected.  So he's both pope and non-pope ... even prescinding from his sedeimpoundist position, as uncanonical election would render him a non-pope even materially-speaking.  His reference to Father Kramer suggested an influence on one side of the alleged schiziphrenia, i.e. vis-a-vis the un-canonical election of Bergoglio side.

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #6 on: April 14, 2023, 07:42:32 AM »
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  • Maybe Fr. Chazal considers Jorge a "de facto" Pope in the scene that the majority of Catholics believe him to be the valid Pope and Catholic hierarchy carry out their daily duties assuming all is normal not realizing that Jorge was not validly elected. Thus, all the Cardinals and Bishops would be using supplied jurisdiction without even knowing it. But I am just speculating. The best way to find what Fr. Chazal really means is to ask him.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #7 on: April 14, 2023, 07:59:00 AM »
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  • The obvious course of action would be to request a clarification of Fr. Chazal.

    His position is not necessarily schizophrenic, as he may be relying upon Billot (ie., He might believe the election of Francis was not canonical, but nevertheless, the universal public assent of the bishops “heals in the root all defects” in the election process), thereby rendering his pontificate legitimate, despite alleged uncanonical irregularities. 

    That argument would be coherent and consistent.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #8 on: April 14, 2023, 08:39:12 AM »
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  • I listened to the clip and Fr. Chazal only mentions in passing that Francis is not canonically elected, without elaborating further. It sounded like this is something he has discussed at greater length elsewhere, but I was not aware Fr. Chazal did not think Francis is canonically elected.

    Does anyone know why he would say this?

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #9 on: April 14, 2023, 08:51:24 AM »
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  • The obvious course of action would be to request a clarification of Fr. Chazal.

    His position is not necessarily schizophrenic, as he may be relying upon Billot (ie., He might believe the election of Francis was not canonical, but nevertheless, the universal public assent of the bishops “heals in the root all defects” in the election process), thereby rendering his pontificate legitimate, despite alleged uncanonical irregularities.

    That argument would be coherent and consistent.

    Please explain how cuм Ex Apostolatus didn't foresee and condemn all the various methods to conjure up a Pope from a heretic:

    Quote
      In addition,
    [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:] that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:(i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;(ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;(iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;[/list]
    And we have a confirmation of point (i) in empirical fact since during the Great Western Schism 15 out of 15 cardinals followed an antipope.

    Billot's position is destroyed by point (ii) and point (iii) excludes sedeprivationism.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #10 on: April 14, 2023, 09:08:38 AM »
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  • Quote
    Please explain how cuм Ex Apostolatus didn't foresee and condemn all the various methods to conjure up a Pope from a heretic:
    You obviously aren't aware that cuм Ex (being hundreds of years old) has been partially abrograted and replaced.


    You are also obviously unaware of Pope St Pius X's changes to the conclave election laws (which allows excommunicated persons to vote/be elected).  Pope Pius XII also passed similar laws, seemingly to confirm St Pius X's law.

    We live in very unique times.  I don't think hundred-years old laws/history can explain everything.  It's going to take a future orthodox council, run by very saintly men, to unravel/explain this mess.  And such a council has been prophecized to take place during Our Lady's era of peace.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #11 on: April 14, 2023, 10:18:53 AM »
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  • A "canonical election" in March 2013 must have followed the law on papal elections found in the Apostolic Constitution Universi Dominici Gregis, which states:

    76. Should the election take place in a way other than that prescribed in the present Constitution, or should the conditions laid down here not be observed, the election is for this very reason null and void, without any need for a declaration on the matter; consequently, it confers no right on the one elected.

    There were a number of irregularities in and around the March 2013 conclave. But the most obvious "condition" that was "not observed" that is definitively "prescribed" by Universi Dominici Gregis was that the previous Pope must die, have a funeral mass celebrated and be buried BEFORE a new papal election can be held. The law and the facts in this situation are objectively verifiable. 

    Therefore, Bergoglio is an antipope, meaning he is a papal claimant who was not elected according to Church law. In that case of an illegal election, the "universal and peaceful acceptance" theory does not apply, as John of St. Thomas makes clear.

    Here is a website with a more detailed explanation of Universi Dominici Gregis applied to Bergoglio:

    https://www.antipope.com


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #12 on: April 14, 2023, 11:17:19 AM »
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  • But the most obvious "condition" that was "not observed" that is definitively "prescribed" by Universi Dominici Gregis was that the previous Pope must die, have a funeral mass celebrated and be buried BEFORE a new papal election can be held. The law and the facts in this situation are objectively verifiable.

    This is false.  UDG did not abolish resignation, and in several places anticipates and foresees the possibility of future resignations:

    The current rules for electing the Roman Pontiff are those issued by Pope John Paul II in the docuмent Universi Dominici Gregis (UDG), modified by a Motu Proprio docuмent of Pope Benedict XVI. The former docuмent, UDG, mentions resignation twice:
    Quote
    3. I further establish that the College of Cardinals may make no dispositions whatsoever concerning the rights of the Apostolic See and of the Roman Church, much less allow any of these rights to lapse, either directly or indirectly, even though it be to resolve disputes or to prosecute actions perpetrated against these same rights after the death or valid resignation of the Pope. [12] All the Cardinals are obliged to defend these rights.

    Footnote 12 in UDG cites Canon law:
    Quote
    Can. 332 §2. If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested but not that it is accepted by anyone.

    And UDG mentions resignation a second time:
    Quote
    77. I decree that the dispositions concerning everything that precedes the election of the Roman Pontiff and the carrying out of the election itself must be observed in full, even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff….

    In other places, the docuмent speaks of the “vacancy” of the office, which includes either death or valid resignation.”

    https://ronconte.com/2013/02/11/questions-on-the-resignation-of-the-pope/
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #13 on: April 14, 2023, 11:54:23 AM »
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  • Please explain how cuм Ex Apostolatus didn't foresee and condemn all the various methods to conjure up a Pope from a heretic:
    And we have a confirmation of point (i) in empirical fact since during the Great Western Schism 15 out of 15 cardinals followed an antipope.

    Billot's position is destroyed by point (ii) and point (iii) excludes sedeprivationism.
    This is incorrect as None of the Popes from GWS are anti-popes....:sleep:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #14 on: April 14, 2023, 12:20:27 PM »
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  • This is incorrect as None of the Popes from GWS are anti-popes....:sleep: