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Author Topic: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ  (Read 22395 times)

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Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2019, 09:07:52 AM »
False; the Vatican regularlydenies what this guy says in his column.

I want to hear it from the horses mouth, not a disreputable atheist trying to project his own opinions to the pope.
You are obviously deficient in your reading ability.  This should give pause to anyone considering buying your book.

The Vatican regularly says that the quotes are not precise.  The Vatican regularly suggests something is deficient about the quotes.  The Vatican does not dispute that what the man writes is true and Bergoglio has never made any public comment denying the veracity of the statements.

If you heard it from Bergoglio's own mouth, you'd claim that the translation if faulty and we're not taking the cultural understandings of the specific words in proper context.

Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2019, 09:11:49 AM »
You are obviously deficient in your reading ability.  This should give pause to anyone considering buying your book.

The Vatican regularly says that the quotes are not precise.  The Vatican regularly suggests something is deficient about the quotes.  The Vatican does not dispute that what the man writes is true and Bergoglio has never made any public comment denying the veracity of the statements.

If you heard it from Bergoglio's own mouth, you'd claim that the translation if faulty and we're not taking the cultural understandings of the specific words in proper context.

Nope: Imprecise = not accurate.

You are reading more into the Vatican's vague response than is there:

“Since the Vatican does not precisely deny the claim, it means the claim is true.”

That is a fallacy.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2019, 09:12:18 AM »
While it would make his status as an anti-Pope clear, Scalfari is NOT a reliable source.

Would I rule out that Bergoglio believes this?  Absolutely not.  I'm curious as to why he did not issue an affirmation of Our Lord's Divinity.  Nevertheless, Scalfari's version of events is not smoking gun proof by any means.  This is where some Cardinals would step in and interrogate Bergoglio about whether he actually said this and believes it.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2019, 09:17:52 AM »
That’s a very fair and reasonable objection and observation.

All I’m saying is that for something with such immense implications, I want to hear it straight from him.

My question is:

1) If the pope would make a public profession that our Lord was a mere man from the time of the Incarnation until his death, would this suffice for a formal act of apostasy?

2) if so, does this circuмvent the need for the Church to declare his deposition?  

Answer A- It would seem not, since without said declaration, many would not perceive the manifest defection from the faith, and continue to follow authority into apostasy;

Answer B- It would seem so, because if apostasy is manifest, then the following of authority into it would be culpable (manifest means manifest);

Answer C- It would seem not, because even such a reprehensible doctrine is not manifest apostasy, but only implies apostasy (ie., Francis is not declaring he has left the faith, but has embraced a doctrine incompatible with the faith, so his apostasy would be implicit, not manifest).

These are just some of the things I am pondering relative to the news report.

If Bergoglio were to come out and confirm this heresy, there would be no need for any declaration by the Church.  This is where S&S are wrong.  When it's obvious and blatant like this, there's no need for any formal declaration, since all Catholics would simply recognize that this man is not one of us.  S&S muddied the waters with their shoddy work.

What effect would any declaration have?  Since the Church cannot judge the pope or juridically convict him of anything at all, it would only be a clarification regarding the mind of the Church.  It only serves a purpose where perhaps the Church might be divided and not unanimous, or where there was any disagreement over whether a particular proposition was actually heretical.  Such a declaration would have the effect of the Church "making up her mind" on the matter ... and that's it.  In a case like this, where Bergoglio were to deny the Divinity of Christ, he would be non-Catholic and a non-Pope without any declaration.  S&S falsely drew the line at "apostasy" due to bad theology.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Francis Denies Divinity of Christ
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2019, 09:23:23 AM »
Nope: Imprecise = not accurate.

You are reading more into the Vatican's vague response than is there:

“Since the Vatican does not precisely deny the claim, it means the claim is true.”

That is a fallacy.

Right, it's not logical proof.  Nevertheless, it is highly suspicious.

How difficult would it have been for Bergoglio to issue a statement:
"I categorically hold as a matter of Divine and Catholic faith that Jesus was and is indeed both God and man.  Anyone who denies this is not a Catholic and is outside the Church."

But Bergoglio admits that he likes it when people cause chaos and stir the pot.  He's a wicked man at the very least.