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Author Topic: Francis and Fornication  (Read 2109 times)

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Offline mobius

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Francis and Fornication
« on: September 17, 2013, 10:04:05 PM »
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  • Francis urges priests not to push cohabiting couples away


    The Pope told priests they should welcome couples that live together and championed the courageous and creative choices involved in going out to the “existential peripheries”, RomaSette says in its article. But the truth factor is crucial here. “The truth must always be told,” not just in the dogmatic sense of the world but in the sense of “love and God’s fullness”. The priest must “accompany” people.

     Francis referred to some experience he had in Buenos Aires as examples of creativity. For example, when some churches were kept open around the clock, with confessors or “personal courses” available for couples who want to marry but can’t attend a prenuptial course because they work till late. The “existential peripheries” are the priority. These also refer to the kinds of family contexts Benedict XVI often talked about, for example second marriages. Our task is to “find another way, the just way,” Francis said.

     Francis concluded his meeting with the Roman clergy by addressing the issues surrounding the annulment of a marriage, a subject that was very important to Benedict XVI. Francis said proposals have been put forward and research is currently underway. The group of eight cardinals and the next Synod of Bishops will discuss this issue in October, Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano reports.

    “The problem cannot be reduced to whether” these couples “are allowed to take communion or not because whoever thinks of the problem in these terms doesn’t understand the real issue at hand,” Francis said. “This is a serious problem regarding the Church’s responsibility towards families that are in this situation.” Francis reiterated what he said on the return flight from Rio to Rome after World Youth Day, saying he will be discussing the issue with the group of eight cardinals who will be meeting in the Vatican in early October. Francis added that the issue will also be discussed at the next Synod of Bishops  on the Gospel’s anthropological relationship with individual people and the family, so that the whole Synod can look into this problem. “This,” Francis said “is a real existential periphery”.


    Offline StCeciliasGirl

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    Francis and Fornication
    « Reply #1 on: September 17, 2013, 10:44:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: mobius
    Francis urges priests not to push cohabiting couples away

    The Pope told priests they should welcome couples that live together and championed the courageous and creative choices involved in going out to the “existential peripheries”, RomaSette says in its article. But the truth factor is crucial here. “The truth must always be told,” not just in the dogmatic sense of the world but in the sense of “love and God’s fullness”. The priest must “accompany” people.

     Francis referred to some experience he had in Buenos Aires as examples of creativity. For example, when some churches were kept open around the clock, with confessors or “personal courses” available for couples who want to marry but can’t attend a prenuptial course because they work till late. The “existential peripheries” are the priority. These also refer to the kinds of family contexts Benedict XVI often talked about, for example second marriages. Our task is to “find another way, the just way,” Francis said.

    Francis concluded his meeting with the Roman clergy by addressing the issues surrounding the annulment of a marriage, a subject that was very important to Benedict XVI. Francis said proposals have been put forward and research is currently underway. The group of eight cardinals and the next Synod of Bishops will discuss this issue in October, Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano reports.

    “The problem cannot be reduced to whether” these couples “are allowed to take communion or not because whoever thinks of the problem in these terms doesn’t understand the real issue at hand,” Francis said. “This is a serious problem regarding the Church’s responsibility towards families that are in this situation.” Francis reiterated what he said on the return flight from Rio to Rome after World Youth Day, saying he will be discussing the issue with the group of eight cardinals who will be meeting in the Vatican in early October. Francis added that the issue will also be discussed at the next Synod of Bishops  on the Gospel’s anthropological relationship with individual people and the family, so that the whole Synod can look into this problem. “This,” Francis said “is a real existential periphery”.


    Holy Mother of God! AVE MARIA, gratia plena, Dominus tecuм. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen. (And it might be soon.)

    Okay, so the truth must always be told, but there are two truths now. When did this happen? Isn't +Jesus THE TRUTH?

    And as for "[we must] find another way", have I lost my mind or Isn't THE WAY +Jesus? Did Frank just plow another "way"? Explain?

    I'd thought he admitted not being adequate to judge? "Who am I to judge?" I'm missing something HUGE here, methinks.

    And I don't speak Modernist; what does:

    * The big paragraph in bold mean? Starts with, "The problem cannot be reduced to whether” these couples “are allowed to take communion or not..." Uh, what problem? Living in sin? Isn't the answer sorta DON'T?

    * "the Gospel's anthropological relationship with individual people and the family" —what? No really, what?

    * and what on earth is a "real existential periphery"? Is he speaking of one-Marriage parents with children, who are extraordinarily rare? Is he hoping us Marrieds get some attention?

    Somehow, I think Frank, once again, has misspoken. Must be the "evil media"  :smoke-pot:
    Legem credendi, lex statuit supplicandi

    +JMJ


    Offline TKGS

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    Francis and Fornication
    « Reply #2 on: September 18, 2013, 07:06:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: StCeciliasGirl
    I don't speak Modernist...


    Join the club.

    To paraphrase Humpty Dumpty, when a Modernist uses a word it means just what he chooses it to mean—neither more nor less.

    It might mean one thing today; it could mean something else tomorrow.  To the Modernist, there is no static meaning to anything as all things, including ideas and doctrine, evolve.

    Offline Stephen Francis

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    Francis and Fornication
    « Reply #3 on: September 18, 2013, 08:11:17 AM »
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  • "Let's find the 'just way'".

    Yes, let's. Let's imply, by our words, that reverence for God's Church wasn't JUST for the last 1960 years before the Modernists broke in.

    Let's imply that it's more important to recognize the 'love' between fornicators than it is to forbid them the Body and Blood of Our Lord. After all, personal feelings are more important than sacrilege.

    By the way, notice that he uses the phrase "are allowed to TAKE COMMUNION".

    First of all, Catholics don't TAKE anything. They RECEIVE. From a PRIEST, not a layperson "presider".

    Secondly, Catholics don't take OR receive "communion". They receive the Holy Eucharist, the Sacrament of the Altar, the Most Adorable +Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ - blessed be the Holy Name of Jesus.

    St. John Vianney, patron of faithful and holy priests, pray for us.

    Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!

    Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
    This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of godliness are overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and the chief seat [the Papacy] is now openly proposed as a rewar

    Offline Timothy

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    Francis and Fornication
    « Reply #4 on: September 18, 2013, 08:39:26 AM »
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  • While fornication and cohabitation can never be condoned, if a couple doing both of these things approaches the Church wishing to be married (and thus rectify their situation), I do not believe any "stumbling blocks" should be put in their way.  Yes they should receive the Sacrament of Confession first--as one should before receiving any Sacrament other than Baptism--but I do not think that one party should be made to move out for some arbitrary period of time, or the like.  It only increases the possibility that the couple will simply walk away from marriage and continue to live in sin, and possibly have children outside the bonds of marriage.  While they are grave sins, neither fornication nor cohabitation are impediments to marriage.


    Offline StCeciliasGirl

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    Francis and Fornication
    « Reply #5 on: September 18, 2013, 09:39:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: Timothy
    While fornication and cohabitation can never be condoned, if a couple doing both of these things approaches the Church wishing to be married (and thus rectify their situation), I do not believe any "stumbling blocks" should be put in their way.  Yes they should receive the Sacrament of Confession first--as one should before receiving any Sacrament other than Baptism--but I do not think that one party should be made to move out for some arbitrary period of time, or the like.  It only increases the possibility that the couple will simply walk away from marriage and continue to live in sin, and possibly have children outside the bonds of marriage.  While they are grave sins, neither fornication nor cohabitation are impediments to marriage.


    But they are impediments to receiving the Holy Eucharist.

    Tell me how such a couple can have Confession and Penance with no intent of changing their grave sin, and receive the Eucharist?

    Even if they were to sleep in separate beds, their behavior is scandalous.  They need to get married FIRST, FIX the situation, and THEN talk about approaching the altar.
    Legem credendi, lex statuit supplicandi

    +JMJ

    Offline Timothy

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    Francis and Fornication
    « Reply #6 on: September 18, 2013, 12:53:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: StCeciliasGirl
    Quote from: Timothy
    While fornication and cohabitation can never be condoned, if a couple doing both of these things approaches the Church wishing to be married (and thus rectify their situation), I do not believe any "stumbling blocks" should be put in their way.  Yes they should receive the Sacrament of Confession first--as one should before receiving any Sacrament other than Baptism--but I do not think that one party should be made to move out for some arbitrary period of time, or the like.  It only increases the possibility that the couple will simply walk away from marriage and continue to live in sin, and possibly have children outside the bonds of marriage.  While they are grave sins, neither fornication nor cohabitation are impediments to marriage.


    But they are impediments to receiving the Holy Eucharist.

    Tell me how such a couple can have Confession and Penance with no intent of changing their grave sin, and receive the Eucharist?

    Even if they were to sleep in separate beds, their behavior is scandalous.  They need to get married FIRST, FIX the situation, and THEN talk about approaching the altar.


    I agree that they should not receive the Eucharist.  My point was that there should be no unnecessary obstacles to getting married .

    Online 2Vermont

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    Francis and Fornication
    « Reply #7 on: September 18, 2013, 03:57:10 PM »
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  • This is actually old news. He said this on the interview back from WYD.  I guess we're still waiting to see what changes Francis will make.

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline ThomisticPhilosopher

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    Francis and Fornication
    « Reply #8 on: September 18, 2013, 10:09:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Timothy
    While fornication and cohabitation can never be condoned, if a couple doing both of these things approaches the Church wishing to be married (and thus rectify their situation), I do not believe any "stumbling blocks" should be put in their way.  Yes they should receive the Sacrament of Confession first--as one should before receiving any Sacrament other than Baptism--but I do not think that one party should be made to move out for some arbitrary period of time, or the like.  It only increases the possibility that the couple will simply walk away from marriage and continue to live in sin, and possibly have children outside the bonds of marriage.  While they are grave sins, neither fornication nor cohabitation are impediments to marriage.


    That is not for you to determine, this is the prerogative choice of the particular priest dealing with particular circuмstances... For example is it possible for them to separate? Do they have any living parents/brothers etc... Where they can go move into? What is the economic situation, how many children etc... Do they even have separate rooms to move into? Can a sister be able to move in to help them live without fornicating etc... Can there be external aids to help them persevere through the amount of time they will live apart from each other (or separate beds). Both the man and the woman will need lots of courage and help to be able to go to the sacrament with a pure intention.

    I have seen a couple that already had 5 children and when the priest told them to separate they did so, blessed be their holy example. They did not complain, or say that is "too harsh." This is what we mean by contrition and repentance that you are willing to show with your deeds and words just how sorry you are. Most people are way too worried what others think of them. This is not a contest of how early did you start serving the Lord... Whether you arrived at the first hour or the 11th hour with 59 minutes, all should thank the Lord and Bless him at all times. This is the most important part, there should never be envy of someone else's spiritual good, or spiritual snobbery (looking down at those with a bad past). Rather those who have by grace never offended the Lord, or have remained steadfast in His service should help uplift those around him/her from the filth that is all around us. Most especially the three enemies of man the world, the flesh and the devil. A Catholic should always desire the company of good Catholic's that live the faith in deed, word and example. How Blessed is to be among the company of the servants of God, who by their tears and compunction of heart lead us to Heaven through charity.

    I agree cohabitation in it of itself is not an impediment, but if the priest knows for certain that they are fornicating he has to by DUTY tell them they cannot get married, even with some other priest. If they go with some other more lenient priest, then I would doubt their intention. It is of ecclesiastical law to get married by a priest (some mistakenly get married with laymen, however the intent was sufficient on their part), and this is a precept of the Church. Thus the couples wishing to get married if they are of good will will do as they are told by their spiritual director with submissiveness. It is better to have children outside of marriage that clearly know they are bastards, then parents who never had any intent of fulfilling his Law with regards to marriage.
    https://keybase.io/saintaquinas , has all my other verified accounts including PGP key plus BTC address for bitcoin tip jar. A.M.D.G.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Francis and Fornication
    « Reply #9 on: September 19, 2013, 02:06:44 PM »
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  • Just wait, there's going to be more from Humble Frank.