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Author Topic: Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."  (Read 7962 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
« Reply #75 on: February 17, 2014, 05:30:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    I don't know enough about Pope Francis to know if he actually has a hatred of Traditional Catholics or the Traditional Latin Mass.  However, he was a relatively young man when Vatican II happened.  If he thinks change is perfectly natural, it is for material things and secular ideas, but if he thinks the Deposit of Faith is something to blend with the times, then he may as well be an avowed opponent of Tradition because he is one.  

    Does anyone here have any other guesses as to why Pope Francis would take a pot shot at some a small and harmless group?





    He's not the Pope?

    Offline Mama ChaCha

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    Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
    « Reply #76 on: February 17, 2014, 05:45:36 PM »
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  • Because they aren't small and harmless to his intentions.

    He will continually discount and ridicule all traditionalists and traditional devotions because they are a real and present danger to his designs. If they weren't, why keep harping on it and its "silliness"? He intends to undermine the traditionalist movement in every way that he can without coming out and calling it heretical.  He knows that his ideas are against God and people are realizing that it's either his way or the truth. People seeking after God prefer truth. People seeking after themselves prefer his way.

    If tradition wasn't a real threat to him, he wouldn't even bother himself with it.
    Matthew 6:34
    " Be not therefore solicitous for to morrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof."


    Offline icterus

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    Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
    « Reply #77 on: February 17, 2014, 07:29:16 PM »
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  • I think Mama Chacha has it.  

    I might disagree with her on some details (who knows without discussing) but she is right on that Traditionalism is dangerous to his program.  

    I happen to think his program is a Rogerian non-confrontational dialogue with atheists...to which Traditionalists are a real complication.

    I also don't think he's dumb.  I think that he has identified Tradition as a threat, and I think he has the tools and knowledge to marginalize Tradition even more.  In other words, I think he knows Trads, and knows them well.  I think this is shown by the fact that he, among all people, spontaneously coined the term which first accurately describes the central probem Traditionalists face:  self-referentialism.


    Offline SJB

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    Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
    « Reply #78 on: February 17, 2014, 09:21:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
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    Why would you "correct" such a thing, when you know exactly what is meant?


    Because, dearest SJB who knows not ever of what you speak, there is a strain of thought in Catholic Traditionalism once popularized by followers of Fr. Gruner which stated that Jesus taught the Mass in Latin, essentially as it was at the time of Trent, to the Apostles between the Resurrection and the Ascension.  

    That is nuttiness.  An informed Catholic knows that the Mass took several hundred years (of well-known and attested ecclesial history) to reach that form.  And, anyone should know about at least the Gregorian reforms.  

    So, it's another crackpot notion which is out there, Cathinfo seems like exactly the kind of place it would pop up, and so I spoke out about it.  

    As is my privilege until Matthew decides otherwise.  


    I didn't think that "strain of thought" had been expressed, so why did you feel the need to address it? Then it took my criticism of you for us to actually know what "strain of thought" you were referring.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline SJB

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    Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
    « Reply #79 on: February 17, 2014, 09:32:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Quote
    He ought to apologize to everyone he has slighted and then go to confession and confess his mockery of others to a priest.


    As I've noted before, I've been threatened with actual bodily harm by a few of the worst nutcases on here, and one grand-high-poohbah idiot told me he'd actually kill me on sight, because he and I took differing paths to reconcile how scripture describes the hare as a ruminant.

    So go sell your crap somewhere else.  I'm responsible for my own sins, but good gravy, I'm not the problem here.  You nutters are.


    Icterus, you do have an attitude problem. You are implying pretty much everybody is a "nutter" who disagrees with you in the areas where you feel you are superior.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline TheKnightVigilant

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    Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
    « Reply #80 on: February 18, 2014, 01:32:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Nah.  I've been on SJB for his inability to read for months now.  Perhaps you suffer the same condition?


    Hey, don't blame your meltdown on me Icky. :laugh1:

    Offline Memento

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    Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
    « Reply #81 on: February 18, 2014, 08:47:52 AM »
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  • Icterus said:
    Quote
    I also don't think he's dumb.  I think that he has identified Tradition as a threat, and I think he has the tools and knowledge to marginalize Tradition even more.  In other words, I think he knows Trads, and knows them well.  I think this is shown by the fact that he, among all people, spontaneously coined the term which first accurately describes the central probem Traditionalists face:  self-referentialism


    No dear, you may think he's got our number but that is only your misguided opinion. 

    Traditional Catholics' aim is to live in Christ. Our reference is Christo-centric.  Our worship, familial and social lives, understanding of history and philosophy all center on our love of God and His creation. We strive to live our short lives in Him so that we end up with Him in heaven. 

    Charity is the key, and it is based on Our Lord's commandment to love God with our whole hearts, souls and minds and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Many of us fall short of the mark but that is the target. 

    I would not call that a problem. 

    Offline icterus

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    Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
    « Reply #82 on: February 18, 2014, 10:56:07 AM »
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  • SJB wrote:

    Quote
    Icterus, you do have an attitude problem. You are implying pretty much everybody is a "nutter" who disagrees with you in the areas where you feel you are superior.


    Tell you what, as soon as you seen me threaten another person's life, call me on it and I'll admit I'm the same as you nutters.  'til then, no thanks.  BTW, yes,I'm lumping everyone who watched that go down and posted nothing in response about the sanity of it in the same batch.  Bunch of nutters.

    Memento wrote:

    Quote
    No dear, you may think he's got our number but that is only your misguided opinion.  


    We're talking about the internal thoughts and attitudes of one man.  Of course it's my opinion.  Anything you write about it is your opinion.  Duh.  

    Quote
    Traditional Catholics' aim is to live in Christ. Our reference is Christo-centric.  Our worship, familial and social lives, understanding of history and philosophy all center on our love of God and His creation. We strive to live our short lives in Him so that we end up with Him in heaven.  


    Oy, vey.  Are you sure you aren't a robot?

    Okay, let me explain it to you in small words.  The above may well be true.  We are talking about Francis.  What do I think his attitude toward Traditionalism is?  That the above is not true.  

    What do I think his intention toward Traditionalism is?  To demonstrate to the world that the above is not true.

    Do I think he is capable of this?  Yes.

    Why?  Because he's smart.

    Why do I think he is smart about it?  Because he hits Traditionalism where it hurts.

    What do I mean?  He marginalizes Tradition at every opportunity, alternately identifying it as a meaningless affectation (the JPII diagnosis) or as a dangeous ideology.

    Which of these two bothers me more?  The 'dangerous ideology' one.

    Why?  Because the world has always accused Traditionalism of arrogance, and diagnosed the Trad refusal to submit to VII and modern innovations as born of pride.  Francis is really pushing this diagnosis, even coining a technical-sounding term 'self-referentialism' to describe it.

    And why is this dangerous?  Because, when Trads fail, when they sin, when they fall prey to the snares the devil leaves for them, this is exactly how the fail, by making themselves an authority over the Church.  

    Man, Francis knows where to hit.  I'm serious.  


    Quote

    Charity is the key, and it is based on Our Lord's commandment to love God with our whole hearts, souls and minds and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Many of us fall short of the mark but that is the target.  

    I would not call that a problem.


    Fine.  Maybe you are right.  Maybe Francis will do no damage.  I disagree.  I think he will do tremendous damage, because I think he will try to turn everyone against Traditionalism as an act of loyalty to the Church.  This is new for the Papacy, IMO.


    Offline SJB

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    Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
    « Reply #83 on: February 18, 2014, 12:55:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Tell you what, as soon as you seen me threaten another person's life, call me on it and I'll admit I'm the same as you nutters.  'til then, no thanks.  BTW, yes,I'm lumping everyone who watched that go down and posted nothing in response about the sanity of it in the same batch.  Bunch of nutters.
    Quote


    The above is precisely why I said what I said. All of those who don't agree with you or don't pay particular attention to you are just "nutters."
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline icterus

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    Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
    « Reply #84 on: February 18, 2014, 12:59:23 PM »
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  • Quote
    The above is precisely why I said what I said. All of those who don't agree with you or don't pay particular attention to you are just "nutters."


    All those who subscribe to nutty conspiracy theories are nutters.  All those who do nutty things are nutters.  All those who, for instance, think it is a reasonable thing to, say, threaten someone with murder for taking a slightly different approach to reconciling why Deuteronomy calls a hare a ruminant when it has no rumen, are definitely nutters.


    Offline Man of the West

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    Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
    « Reply #85 on: February 18, 2014, 01:36:02 PM »
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  • Just for the record, Bergoglio didn't coin the term self-referentialism. The term self-reference, which refers to recursive motifs in mathematics, philosophy and art, and has latterly been introduced into linguistics and psychology, has been used for many decades now. The concept, of course, is timeless; the explicit recognition of the concept goes back at least to Russell's Paradox and Kurt Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem, which are notable examples of it.

    But it is surpassingly curious that Bergoglio would apply this term to Traditional Catholicism. Catholic theology does not make use of recursive methods; Thomistic philosophy regards the appearance of recursion in an argument as fallacious, or at the very least evidence of an inaccurate parsing of the terms. I am unable to see how this is "a problem Traditionalists face," unless (as seems likely) Bergoglio has in mind only the social aspects of Traditional Catholic communities—which if true reveals a great deal about the man himself, for it shows all of the following:

    A) His exclusively human-centered understanding of religion. For him, everything ultimately reduces to a social question. Traditionalism earns his ire because it is (in his view) closed off to the wider world and uninterested in the exciting "existential peripheries" of social engagement. This is both an insult and a canard, as I explain below.

    B) His rejection of any spirit of renunciation or contemplation. One of the most ominous hallmarks of the Conciliar Church is its sumptuousness, its highly refined egotism which it hides behind a pretense of respect for life and concern for the poor. It positively exhorts and even commands all to feast at the banquet of life. This attitude, especially prominent in Paul VI, reinterprets Catholic doctrine with a Socialist-Humanist hermeneutic so that, while the same words and expressions are used, something different is meant. Thus Conciliarism's incessant carping about social justice stems not from any desire to do a good office for Christ by benefitting His poor servants, but a desire to "integrate them into the human community," that being the community of pseudo-religious aesthetes like themselves. It is actually an intolerance of the fact of poverty, an effeminate insistence that nothing must remain which disturbs the uninterrupted enjoyment of sensuous delights and vainglorious ostentation. The poor are an annoyance, you see, thus "poverty" must be "eliminated." How far these New Churchmen—who seem to think only of redistributing, never of renouncing, wealth—are from the spirit of the Gospel, can be seen from the example of the many saints who followed Christ's counsel to take no thought of riches or poverty, for both fetter us to the cares of this world. The Christian ought to live with a contented otherworldliness, not regarding the passing problems and anxieties of this life as something worthy of his complete attention. The desire to disengage from this world is a great sign of predestination and incipient sanctity, as one turns his thoughts and his entire being ever more fully toward God. Francis impugns this most holy and religious attitude in the person of the Traditionalists by calling them self-referential, hence the insult.

    C) His total ignorance of the actual situation. While Traditional Catholics ought to live apart from this world, they very seldom do so. One of the chief complaints one hears from Traditional Catholics these days is the extent to which worldliness has seeped into the roots of their supposedly Traditional parish. It has at least been my own regrettable experience (and I think that I am not alone in this) that the people who attend Latin Masses are by and large just as worldly, just as interested in careerism, just as obsessed with professional sports, just as unknowing about the firm facts of the faith, just as likely to have supercilious daughters with facebook pages, just as convinced of the salutary effects of democracy—in a word just as steeped in the heresy of Americanism—as your average Evangelical Protestant; which is to say, not as much as your typical neo-pagan fellaheen worldling, but more so than is permissible. Bergoglio seems unaware of this ground-level reality within Traditionalist circles, hence the canard. All of this redounds finally to the confirmation of:

    D) His grandstanding and bullying. Bergoglio's relentless attacks on Tradition seem utterly out of proportion when we realize that he is talking to a tiny fraction of a percent of all the world's Catholics, and moreover identifying them as the enemies of the Church's mission. Meanwhile, he has more than demonstrated his willingness to jump on board with the popular cause celebres of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and ecuмenism. These are two sides of the same coin. Traditionalism is a threat to Bergoglio's "mission" in the same sense that Christ is always scandal to the world, that much is true. It is also unquestionably true that he seeks to damage the credibility of the Trads, but I think this is more of an instinctive response with him than part of a Machiavellian ploy. In either case, he is definitely lacking in supernatural vision and is an untrustworthy guide in spiritual matters. If I'm wrong and he is a Machiavel, than he is exceedingly wicked to boot. However (and I shall close with this point), I would not think that Bergoglio's use of the bully pulpit, as it were opposing the power of the papacy to Traditionalism, really hits Trads where it hurts. The mere fact of being a Traditionalist has meant at the very least ignoring if not opposing the power of the papacy for the last fifty years. Bergoglio's gambit depends on a loyalty which is no longer really there. Traditionalists already stand condemned in the eyes of the world, so trying to further pillory them before the world will not hurt them much either. I conclude that the most likely explanation of Bergoglio's behavior is that he is himself jealous for the praise and approval of the world. He neither knows nor cares much for anything else.

    Sic transit gloria mundi was the phrase uttered to every true pope of the Catholic Church upon his coronation, as a patch of burning straw turned to ashes in his hands. How the Conciliar popes have forgotten that fact, along with everything else.
    Confronting modernity from the depths of the human spirit, in communion with Christ the King.


    Offline SJB

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    Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
    « Reply #86 on: February 18, 2014, 01:55:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Quote
    The above is precisely why I said what I said. All of those who don't agree with you or don't pay particular attention to you are just "nutters."


    All those who subscribe to nutty conspiracy theories are nutters.  All those who do nutty things are nutters.  All those who, for instance, think it is a reasonable thing to, say, threaten someone with murder for taking a slightly different approach to reconciling why Deuteronomy calls a hare a ruminant when it has no rumen, are definitely nutters.


    I do wonder why you are here in the first place. Does it make you feel superior?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline icterus

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    Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
    « Reply #87 on: February 18, 2014, 02:28:30 PM »
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  • Man of the West wrote:

    Quote
    D) His grandstanding and bullying. Bergoglio's relentless attacks on Tradition seem utterly out of proportion when we realize that he is talking to a tiny fraction of a percent of all the world's Catholics, and moreover identifying them as the enemies of the Church's mission. Meanwhile, he has more than demonstrated his willingness to jump on board with the popular cause celebres of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and ecuмenism. These are two sides of the same coin. Traditionalism is a threat to Bergoglio's "mission" in the same sense that Christ is always scandal to the world, that much is true. It is also unquestionably true that he seeks to damage the credibility of the Trads, but I think this is more of an instinctive response with him than part of a Machiavellian ploy. In either case, he is definitely lacking in supernatural vision and is an untrustworthy guide in spiritual matters. If I'm wrong and he is a Machiavel, than he is exceedingly wicked to boot. However (and I shall close with this point), I would not think that Bergoglio's use of the bully pulpit, as it were opposing the power of the papacy to Traditionalism, really hits Trads where it hurts. The mere fact of being a Traditionalist has meant at the very least ignoring if not opposing the power of the papacy for the last fifty years. Bergoglio's gambit depends on a loyalty which is no longer really there. Traditionalists already stand condemned in the eyes of the world, so trying to further pillory them before the world will not hurt them much either. I conclude that the most likely explanation of Bergoglio's behavior is that he is himself jealous for the praise and approval of the world. He neither knows nor cares much for anything else.


    First off, thanks for the information on self-referentialism.  I suspect he is not using it in the proper/classical way.  I'd like to discuss his exact use of it, perhaps it's worth a thread.

    Second, the above paragraph is of great interest to me.  I'd like to discuss:

    Quote
    D) His grandstanding and bullying. Bergoglio's relentless attacks on Tradition seem utterly out of proportion when we realize that he is talking to a tiny fraction of a percent of all the world's Catholics, and moreover identifying them as the enemies of the Church's mission. Meanwhile, he has more than demonstrated his willingness to jump on board with the popular cause celebres of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and ecuмenism.


    Yes, it is incomprehensible except (in my opinion) from one viewpoint.  The Pope is a Jesuit who says of himself that he 'learned a new way of leading' during his early years as a superior.  I suspect that this new way of leading was simply the most popular 'new way of leading' in New World religious communities in the 1970's, Rogerian Conflict Resolution.  

    The Rogerian method seeks to form a non-hierarchical engagement space, in which all parties arrive as equals to state their positions.  The facilitator makes statement of recognition of the validity of these positions within the personal context of the speakers.  

    I would propose "If a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ is honestly seeking God, who am I to judge" as a perfect Rogerian statement of personal context.  

    Leading is done, in the this system, by the facilitator, after hearing the positions of all parties and confirming the situational legitimacy of these position, suggesting his desired course of action as a viable alternative which all parties should accept for their own self-interest.  

    In this system, the only person who is not graced with the facilitator's benevolent confirmation of personal validity is the one who will not submit to the process.  You can consult the classic 'One flew over the cuckoo's nest' and the character of Randall McMurphy for a study.  In practical terms, the only 'wrong' in the Rogerian system is to say the system has no validity.  In therapy, for instance, to say that a person's context is invalid because it does not reflect reality.  In the Church, the corresponding action would be to quote Church docuмents and insist that the Teaching is not infinitely malleable.  This is an attack on the process itself.  

    That's why.

    Quote
    It is also unquestionably true that he seeks to damage the credibility of the Trads, but I think this is more of an instinctive response with him than part of a Machiavellian ploy. In either case, he is definitely lacking in supernatural vision and is an untrustworthy guide in spiritual matters. If I'm wrong and he is a Machiavel, than he is exceedingly wicked to boot. However (and I shall close with this point), I would not think that Bergoglio's use of the bully pulpit, as it were opposing the power of the papacy to Traditionalism, really hits Trads where it hurts.


    Depends.  It's going to damage the FSSP perhaps beyond repair.  It will dry up the indult Masses and those communities.  The SSPX is in a different place, and what effect he can have on it is a matter of debate and for the future.


    Quote
    The mere fact of being a Traditionalist has meant at the very least ignoring if not opposing the power of the papacy for the last fifty years. Bergoglio's gambit depends on a loyalty which is no longer really there. Traditionalists already stand condemned in the eyes of the world, so trying to further pillory them before the world will not hurt them much either. I conclude that the most likely explanation of Bergoglio's behavior is that he is himself jealous for the praise and approval of the world. He neither knows nor cares much for anything else.


    As I stated above, I think he is running a much more sophisticated game.  I think he is literally trying to run, not just the Church, but the entire world like a South American Jesuit house.  

    Offline icterus

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    Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
    « Reply #88 on: February 18, 2014, 02:29:39 PM »
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  • Quote
    I do wonder why you are here in the first place. Does it make you feel superior?


    See above exchange between me and 'Man of the West'.  I'm learning from it.  That's why.  

    Offline TheKnightVigilant

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    Francis: "The Latin Mass is rather a kind of fashion."
    « Reply #89 on: February 18, 2014, 02:51:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
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    I do wonder why you are here in the first place. Does it make you feel superior?


    See above exchange between me and 'Man of the West'.  I'm learning from it.  That's why.  


    If that is why you are here, why is it that such a large proportion of your posts consist of nothing more than frustrated, childish ranting about "nutters"?  :laugh1: