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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: SeanJohnson on May 02, 2012, 10:20:19 PM
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Rome-SSPX
German District Superior: "for that we are grateful"
Editorial of the May 2012 issue of the monthly of the German District of the Society of Saint Pius X, Mitteilungsblatt, penned by the District Superior, and former SSPX Superior General, Father Franz Schmidberger:
Stuttgart, April 20, 2012
Dear friends and benefactors, dear faithful,
“We hold fast, with all our heart and with all our soul, to Catholic Rome, Guardian of the Catholic faith and of the traditions necessary to preserve this faith, to Eternal Rome, Mistress of wisdom and truth.”
“We refuse, on the other hand, and have always refused to follow the Rome of neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant tendencies which were clearly evident in the Second Vatican Council and, after the Council, in all the reforms which issued from it.”
In this statement of Abp. Lefebvre of his epochal declaration of 21 November 1974 are contained two inseparable fundamental principles: on one hand, the rejection of the spirit of the Council, of some of the declarations of the council and of some of the reforms that arose from the Council – and we have devoted ourselves with all our force to this task since the foundation of the Fraternity in 1970. On the other, unbreakable relations with Rome, insofar as it portrays eternal Rome. We cannot expect, however, that after the conciliar and post-conciliar collapse everything will be perfect again in the Church Militant within one day. The Church has in her bosom both saints and sinners. Amongst her human imperfections can even be counted errors, if they do not directly oppose the revealed truth. A Church Militant filled with saints only is the heresy of Jansenism, which has been condemned expressly by the Magisterium. Of course every Christian has the duty to fight sin and error, each according to his possibility and his position in the Church; however, we must always start with ourselves and align our lives with the principles of the Catholic faith.
During and after the Council, the following slogan was issued time and time again: Ecclesia semper reformanda est – the Church is always being reformed. This statement is ambiguous and was shamefully abused by those who want to reform. It is only Catholic when we mean: the Church is always to be reformed in its members, the life of faith and morals must always be renewed, and even the discipline of the Church is sometimes to be adapted to new circuмstances. But the structure of the church is God-given and cannot be altered nor “renewed” by man.
Let us then not forget in the heat of our battle the first principle of Abp. Lefebvre: the Church was founded by Christ on Peter. To him he entrusted the keys of heaven, to him he gave the mandate to feed the sheep (Mt. 16, 18ff; Jn 21, 15ff). And the field of the Church may be filled with tares, so full that one can hardly see the wheat – the Church has the promise of eternal life; the Lord is with her all the days until the end of times (Mt. 28, 20). It is His Church, not ours. We do not have the right to dispose of her. We cannot see the Church in a too human, too political, or too diplomatic way. However much St. Athanasius, in the fourth century A.D., saved the faith in the divinity of Christ, however much he safeguarded the survival of the Church – he was but a tool of Divine Providence, with which the promise of the Church’s perpetual existence was to be accomplished. Had he flinched from this mission, God would have called upon another tool. And it is like this with Archbishop Lefebvre and the Society of Saint Pius X that he founded: the founder and his work have significantly contributed to upholding for the Church the true Holy Mass, the doubt-free sacraments, and the deposit of the faith during stormy times. And yet, the great confessor-bishop, the priests that he ordained, the bishops that he consecrated, they are but unprofitable servants (Lk 17, 10), who are in the service of Divine Providence and promise. How much grace, greatness and joy lay in this being allowed to serve! And yet, the tools do not possess the promise of eternal life, but the Church does, as the Mystical Body of the Lord. And this is why we hold fast, with all our heart, to eternal Rome, and why we want to be neither heretical, nor schismatic, but simply Catholic.
If Rome now calls us back from the exile to which it expelled us in 1975 with the abrogation of the [canonical] approval [of the Society], and even more in 1988 with the decree of excommunication, then that is an act of justice and without doubt also an act of authentic pastoral care of Pope Benedict XVI. And for that we are grateful.
With priestly benediction in the risen Lord and His most Holy Mother.
Yours,
Father Franz Schmidberger
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Let him who hath hearing understand: This deal is done with Rome.
Fellay/Schmidberger/Menzingen will sign.
The other three bishops will not go along.
Hopefully only the Germans and a some French leave.
I will go wherever Williamson/de Gallereta/de Mallerais go.
What will be the name of the new order?
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They need to consecrate a couple more bishops FAST.
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If Rome now calls us back from the exile to which it expelled us in 1975 with the abrogation of the [canonical] approval [of the Society], and even more in 1988 with the decree of excommunication, then that is an act of justice and without doubt also an act of authentic pastoral care of Pope Benedict XVI. And for that we are grateful.
Complete 180 in terms of talking points on the part of some within the SSPX. Years ago it was Modernist Rome who needed to repent and turn from its errors. Now its we, the naughty SSPX who are looking to be called back from being expelled. Quo Vadis SSPX?
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Complete 180 in terms of talking points on the part of some within the SSPX. Years ago it was Modernist Rome who needed to repent and turn from its errors. Now its we, the naughty SSPX who are looking to be called back from being expelled. Quo Vadis SSPX?
Well, he is saying it's an act of justice. But yes, it's totally incompatible with what has been said before about the modernists.
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No surprises there from Fr Schmidberger. There will of course be priests like this and chapel attendee's who support him. Just look at how some in Germany still vote for the CDU. The Party of Merkel and Krah.
I thought this important so I posted Dumb Ox's comment here.Let us not forget that the elderly Fr. Maessen left Fr Pfluger ashen faced and was applauded by vast majority of clerics present.Fr Schmidberger like Bishop Fellay are following their own ambitions.They are happy to compromise.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?s=04dbf89d2c58f38f67694fadcdca2114&showtopic=9287&view=getnewpost
Dear Gabriel,
I am aware that you have a soft-spot for Fr. Schmidberger and so will not care much to hear it, but Dawn Marie and gregj are correct.
Fr. Schmidberger has been intent upon making a deal for a long time. His influence in the matter is such that when the two bishops travelled last week to meet specifically with Bishop Fellay and his General Council they arrived only to find that Fr. Schmidberger was additionally there waiting for them. He is not part of Bishop Fellay's General Council.
The priests of the German District are in fact very much opposed to any deal being made. It is not the other way around.
Those pushing heavily for a deal in Germany are Fr's. Schmidberger and Frey with the close collaboration of Fr. Pfluger and The Crow.
Two meetings were held for the priests in Germany, just as in France, in order to attempt to sell a deal to them. Both meetings were addressed by Fr. Pfluger who spoke for several hours. On both occasions he met almost universal opposition amongst the priests. Every argument that Fr. Pfluger proposed for assimilation was utterly demolished in minutes by the heroic Fr. Maessen who just kept quoting Archbishop Lefebvre back to him.
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No surprises there from Fr Schmidberger. There will of course be priests like this and chapel attendee's who support him. Just look at how some in Germany still vote for the CDU. The Party of Merkel and Krah.
I thought this important so I posted Dumb Ox's comment here.Let us not forget that the elderly Fr. Maessen left Fr Pfluger ashen faced and was applauded by vast majority of clerics present.Fr Schmidberger like Bishop Fellay are following their own ambitions.They are happy to compromise.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?s=04dbf89d2c58f38f67694fadcdca2114&showtopic=9287&view=getnewpost
Dear Gabriel,
I am aware that you have a soft-spot for Fr. Schmidberger and so will not care much to hear it, but Dawn Marie and gregj are correct.
Fr. Schmidberger has been intent upon making a deal for a long time. His influence in the matter is such that when the two bishops travelled last week to meet specifically with Bishop Fellay and his General Council they arrived only to find that Fr. Schmidberger was additionally there waiting for them. He is not part of Bishop Fellay's General Council.
The priests of the German District are in fact very much opposed to any deal being made. It is not the other way around.
Those pushing heavily for a deal in Germany are Fr's. Schmidberger and Frey with the close collaboration of Fr. Pfluger and The Crow.
Two meetings were held for the priests in Germany, just as in France, in order to attempt to sell a deal to them. Both meetings were addressed by Fr. Pfluger who spoke for several hours. On both occasions he met almost universal opposition amongst the priests. Every argument that Fr. Pfluger proposed for assimilation was utterly demolished in minutes by the heroic Fr. Maessen who just kept quoting Archbishop Lefebvre back to him.
Unfortunately, nobody has been able to cite a credible source for these stories of French and German resistence.
They seem to have aappeared gratuitously, and then sent around the internet.
I hope they are true, but there is nothing credible to bacck them.
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Sorry you would doubt my credible sources. One being a cleric who was actually present at the meeting. I suppose when you have a woman over on Ignis Ardens voting 'not sure' regarding the poll 'Should the SSPX accept a Personal Prelature?' you have some who will happily compromise.
The three other Bishops, the other clerics and attendee's at chapels need to resist Bishop Fellay and others to the face.
Whilst a letter from the three Bishops to Fellay does exist, they need to challenge him in public.
One priest informed Bishop Fellay to his face that he will leave the SSPX if there is a sell out. I wouldn't agree with this approach as this is what Bishop Fellay wants. He doesn't want "hard liners". Leaving the SSPX is an emotive and easy way out for a cleric.
Faithful are not going to hand over their chapels to Rome. They financed SSPX priests and apostolates so won't just give up their chapels and hand them over to Modernists.
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As Dumb Ox writes.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9263&st=25
The SSPX resistance has already formed its nucleus and is now beginning to approach and talk with colleagues about the grave danger of a canonical deal.
Among the nucleus of resistance, that is those who have so far declared to each other their determined opposition and resistance to any deal can be included:
1) at least half of the people who will consist the General Chapter.
2) at least seven District Superiors with full support of their district priests.
3) three districts whose priests solidly oppose a deal in contrast to their District Superior.
4) at least two Seminary Rectors and their professors.
5) every member of the SSPX Theological Commission involved in the doctrinal discussion with the Newchurch theologians.
6) three bishops.
It is a heavy-weight resistance already and that is only its nucleus. Many SSPX members including District Superiors and Seminary Rectors have not yet been personally approached. That will surely be done now that the ball is rolling and gathering momentum.
On top of that, although they do not belong to SSPX, can be counted the chief religious orders allied to SSPX. They also carry great weight and will have their influence upon things.
Dear Binx,
"Aye. In my circles, the prevailing trust seems to be placed in +F".
Are you referring to members of SSPX or those among its faithful?
Rome will have a fight on their hands if they think the Irish will hand them over their chapels and Mass centre's. Just one example.Bishop Fellay needs to remember we housed and financed his priests and looked after them well. Thousands of punts and now Euro have been given over the years. These are our chapels
So be it if faithful have to 'occupy' a chapel
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Regarding Fr Grosso, who left the SSPX, Dumb Ox writes the following. I agree and always a pity a priest leaves the SSPX. There needs to be a united resistance to any deal with NewChurch. I agree with this analysis.
As I said for a priest to leave is an easy way out and plays into hands of the enemy and those who want their deal with NewChurch.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9263&st=0
Fr. Gabriel Grosso is the former Conciliar priest who underwent conversion on the road to Buenos Aires and joined SSPX in order to fight against Conciliarism.
He is the priest referred to in the famous leaked letter of Bishop Fellay of who Bishop Williamson advised not to join SSPX in its current wavering state.
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10...-to-bishop.html
"1. To an Argentinian priest from the Novus Ordo who asks for your advice, you recommend that he should not join the SSPX".
It is a pity that he has now left, after deciding to join anyway. SSPX needs to maintain a united body of resistance against the process of assimilation to Newchurch. It can not afford for its priests and religious to splinter. It only weakens the resistance within SSPX and helps the enemy at this crucial moment in time.
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I'm not sure if readers follow events in Ireland but a friend of mine sent me this regarding Cardinal Brady. There has been calls again today for Cardinal Brady to resign.Relevant for this thread and any deal with Rome. It's the likes of Sean Brady who become Cardinals.
The Novus Ordo Primate of all Ireland, Cardinal Sean Brady has been caught out, yet again. This is the huckster who gave a cast-iron assurance that he would resign if found out covering up child abuse, but refused to do so, because he said that the pantheistic, teilhardian non holy spirit told him to stay on that he may "lead reform and renewal in Ireland," no less! He blames an "unhealthy culture of deference at the time." It is only unhealthy (and extremely dangerous!) to defer to apostate wolves in sheep's clothing. The true Catholic Church is the "voice of God" as St Paul says, and it is most salutary and safe to defer to it.
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May the odour of the still smouldering ashes of Campos dissipate the illusions about submitting to the hydra of error.
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The Society reformers will direct their fire power away from Rome and the dioceses towards their own 'schismatics'. The new Rome-friendly construct we have seen lately will develop quickly to become part of Ratzinger's strange legacy that is inveigling some jaded trad minds. For hostile priests and laymen to remain with an entity so infused with unavoidable doses of future experimentation may be asking too much. If they are going to act to stop all this, they must act now. Tomorrow will be too late.
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... Ratzinger's strange legacy...
Few seem to realise how dangerous that man truly is. He appears to want Écône to have a share in his teilhardian 'cosmic liturgy' and his atrocious evolution of doctrine, which he thinks should lead towards that delusional concept, cloaked in deceiving appearences of continuity with the past. The doctrinal 'evolution' set forth by the new course is but degeneracy, and the Helvetic brotherhood is being invited into the pantheon; let it not take the bait, for how will it be able to withstand the teeth of the ongoing revolt if it will place itself between it's jaws?
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Rorate Caeli, who favour an agreement posted this.
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/05/rome-sspx-us-district-superior-matter.html
Rome-SSPX
U.S. District Superior: "The matter is in the hands of the Holy Father and we are waiting for His decision."
The Superior of the American District of the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) asks for a special novena regarding the current moment, in a "Letter to friends and benefactors" that has just been released:
May 2012
Dear Friends and Benefactors,
A lot of rumors are being spread regarding the relations between the Roman authorities and the Society of St. Pius X. On this regard, I wish to simply remind the communiqué from the General House of the Society of April 18, 2012:
In a letter dated April 17, 2012, the Superior General of the Society of St. Pius X responded to the request for clarification that had been made to him on March 16 by Cardinal William Levada concerning the Doctrinal Preamble delivered on September 14, 2011. As the press release dated today from the Ecclesia Dei Commission indicates, the text of this response “will be examined by the dicastery (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) then submitted to the Holy Father for his judgment".
The matter is in the hands of the Holy Father and we are waiting for His decision.
Let us remember that it is to our Superior General, and only to him, that has been entrusted by the law of the Church and the will of Archbishop Lefebvre the delicate task of our relations with Rome. As such, he is the only competent authority to take prudent decisions for our Society. Because of his function and his 18 years of leadership in keeping the Faith and seeking the common good of the Church, we renew to him all our confidence, trust and respectful obedience in this difficult time. Our filial piety to him, as to the Sovereign Pontiff, pushes us to do more than usual in these unusual circuмstances: we desire to bring to them the support of all your prayers.
To pray is indeed the most important, and as a matter of fact, the only thing we can do now. I would like to ask you to double your efforts in the Rosary Crusade, which will end on Pentecost Sunday (May 27, 2012), keeping in mind the striking results of the previous ones. I wish also to solicit your generosity in offering a novena to the Holy Ghost.
The intention of this novena will be that the Holy Ghost may give the graces of light and strength to the Holy Father, Benedict XVI, and to the Superior General of the Society, Bishop Fellay.
The novena consists of praying the Veni Creator Spiritus and adding the Memorare (Remember, O Most Gracious Virgin Mary) starting on May 8 and ending on May 16, the vigil of the feast of the Ascension of Our Lord.
I authorize the priests to add these prayers just before or after their daily Mass.
Let us pray that the Good Lord may keep us all united in the Faith and in a corps spirit around our Superior, working for the Restoration of all things in Christ as ever.
In the Immaculate Heart of Mary,
Fr. Arnaud Rostand
Question to Fr Rostand. Where are these rumours being spread?
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Faithful are not going to hand over their chapels to Rome. They financed SSPX priests and apostolates so won't just give up their chapels and hand them over to Modernists.
The faithful may not have any choice...there has been a two or three year window of opportunity for the sspx hierarchy to do some legal maneuvering with their friend, the Jєωιѕн lawyer...
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Let us remember that it is to our Superior General, and only to him, that has been entrusted by the law of the Church and the will of Archbishop Lefebvre the delicate task of our relations with Rome. As such, he is the only competent authority to take prudent decisions for our Society. Because of his function and his 18 years of leadership in keeping the Faith and seeking the common good of the Church, we renew to him all our confidence, trust and respectful obedience in this difficult time
Can Bishop Fellay be regarded as "competent"? One can hardly describe the Menzingen lawyer as "competent so I have serious doubts about those who hired him.
Blind obedience here from Fr Rostand, who seems happy to sign up to NewChurch.
The fact he is trying to dismiss what he sees as rumours is a good thing. He is trying to keep a lid on things by suggesting they are rumours.
A classic example of Fr Rostand trying to take people to be fools.
Bishop Fellay is certainly a dictator but this is a load of horse manure from Fr Rostand.Who believes his BS.
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I wonder how many readers see that this thread is straight from hell.
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I wonder how many readers see that this thread is straight from hell.
Well probably most of them are sedes....even if they attend SSPX chapels. Sedevacantism is straight from hell.
Fellay may or may not be doing the right thing. If there is a deal, we will have to see what it looks like before passing judgment.
Of course, if Fellay refuses, it's not like these sedes will ever apologize or retract what they've said. They are their own little popes after all.
If there is a deal, and it's bad, then I will look to Bishop W. for guidance....hopefully he'll do something.
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Rorate Caeli, who favour an agreement posted this.
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/05/rome-sspx-us-district-superior-matter.html
Rome-SSPX
U.S. District Superior: "The matter is in the hands of the Holy Father and we are waiting for His decision."
The Superior of the American District of the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) asks for a special novena regarding the current moment, in a "Letter to friends and benefactors" that has just been released:
May 2012
Dear Friends and Benefactors,
A lot of rumors are being spread regarding the relations between the Roman authorities and the Society of St. Pius X. On this regard, I wish to simply remind the communiqué from the General House of the Society of April 18, 2012:
In a letter dated April 17, 2012, the Superior General of the Society of St. Pius X responded to the request for clarification that had been made to him on March 16 by Cardinal William Levada concerning the Doctrinal Preamble delivered on September 14, 2011. As the press release dated today from the Ecclesia Dei Commission indicates, the text of this response “will be examined by the dicastery (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) then submitted to the Holy Father for his judgment".
The matter is in the hands of the Holy Father and we are waiting for His decision.
Let us remember that it is to our Superior General, and only to him, that has been entrusted by the law of the Church and the will of Archbishop Lefebvre the delicate task of our relations with Rome. As such, he is the only competent authority to take prudent decisions for our Society. Because of his function and his 18 years of leadership in keeping the Faith and seeking the common good of the Church, we renew to him all our confidence, trust and respectful obedience in this difficult time. Our filial piety to him, as to the Sovereign Pontiff, pushes us to do more than usual in these unusual circuмstances: we desire to bring to them the support of all your prayers.
To pray is indeed the most important, and as a matter of fact, the only thing we can do now. I would like to ask you to double your efforts in the Rosary Crusade, which will end on Pentecost Sunday (May 27, 2012), keeping in mind the striking results of the previous ones. I wish also to solicit your generosity in offering a novena to the Holy Ghost.
The intention of this novena will be that the Holy Ghost may give the graces of light and strength to the Holy Father, Benedict XVI, and to the Superior General of the Society, Bishop Fellay.
The novena consists of praying the Veni Creator Spiritus and adding the Memorare (Remember, O Most Gracious Virgin Mary) starting on May 8 and ending on May 16, the vigil of the feast of the Ascension of Our Lord.
I authorize the priests to add these prayers just before or after their daily Mass.
Let us pray that the Good Lord may keep us all united in the Faith and in a corps spirit around our Superior, working for the Restoration of all things in Christ as ever.
In the Immaculate Heart of Mary,
Fr. Arnaud Rostand
Question to Fr Rostand. Where are these rumours being spread?
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I wonder how many readers see that this thread is straight from hell.
Well probably most of them are sedes....even if they attend SSPX chapels. Sedevacantism is straight from hell.
Fellay may or may not be doing the right thing. If there is a deal, we will have to see what it looks like before passing judgment.
Of course, if Fellay refuses, it's not like these sedes will ever apologize or retract what they've said. They are their own little popes after all.
If there is a deal, and it's bad, then I will look to Bishop W. for guidance....hopefully he'll do something.
It has nothing to do with Sedevacantism.
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Worth posting this here.
Bishop Williamson - Eleison Comments - 'Bonus Issue' (April 30, 2012)
DRAMATIC STICHOMYTHIA
Stichomythia comes from the Greek dramatists, where it is a sharp dispute conducted in a dialogue of alternate lines. Now there is not much real drama left in a world where the truth is almost extinguished, but the lies have not yet quite taken over in the Catholic Church, as they will virtually do at world’s end, so where there is still some truth, there is still some occasion for stichomythia. We listen in on an SSPX soft-liner (SL) trying to give a hard time to an SSPX hard-liner (HL):–
SL Outside the Church is not where we should be!
HL Who left the Church? Vatican II! Not we!
SL Once in the Church, we could do so much more!
HL If we detested error, as before.
SL Why should we stop detesting error, pray?
HL Because we would be joining in their fray.
SL We need to live within the Church’s law.
HL Not if it is not serving God any more.
SL The Catholic Church is visible. We’re not there.
HL The Church is holy. Do we see that? Where?
SL But things have changed since the Archbishop’s day.
HL The modernists still hold exclusive sway.
SL What Rome now offers, he would have approved.
HL Never, once Benedict to Assisi moved!
SL The SSPX stands strong, need fear no fall.
HL Let all who stand fear falling, says St. Paul.
SL But our Superiors have grace of state.
HL Did leading churchmen never prevaricate?
SL Our leaders to the SSPX belong!
HL And does that mean they never can do wrong?
SL But, Pre-condition One, Rome freed the Mass.
HL And left in place the “bastard rite”, so crass.
SL Rome also lifted the ban on bishops four.
HL But did that make them more free than before?
SL Yet Benedict is calling for our aid.
HL To make Truth prosper, or to help it fade?
SL Of harming Truth, how can the Pope be accused?
HL His modernist mind is hopelessly confused.
SL Yet truly, Benedict wants us all back in.
HL As a modernist, yes, but modernism is a sin.
SL Then do you still believe that he is Pope?
HL Yes, but we must for his conversion hope.
SL What can you mean by, “As a modernist, yes”?
HL Our true Faith he can only harm, not bless.
SL Our welfare is his genuine concern.
HL Not our true welfare, if our true Faith he spurn.
SL A lack of supernatural spirit you show!
HL If woe I say there is, where there is woe?
SL Not everything in the Church is gloomy, dark!
HL Where do you see of true revival a spark?
SL A movement towards Tradition is under way!
HL While fully in control the modernists stay?
SL Then is the official Church still God’s own Church?
HL Yes, it’s the churchmen left us in the lurch.
SL But surely Pope and Rome have both meant well.
HL So? – “Good intentions pave the way to Hell.”
SL But evils worse that Vatican Two can be.
HL The Archbíshop – remember? – called it World War Three.
SL You’re harsh. Your attitude to schism will lead.
HL Better than undermine the entire creed!
SL Not all the Church authorities are bad.
HL The good ones have no power. It’s very sad.
SL Priests should not say, authority is untrue.
HL But bishops were the cause of Vatican II!
SL Still, Catholic instincts seek their Catholic home.
HL Today, for Catholics, that’s no longer Rome.
SL Then where is the Church? Just in Tradition? Where?
HL “One, holy, catholic, apostolic” – there.
SL You want to solve this problem overnight!
HL No, just that a start be made to set it right.
SL We trust in God. We trust in his Sacred Heart.
HL Bravo! But humans too must play their part.
SL That part is not for us just to complain.
HL Tradcats work hard, Tradition to maintain.
SL If we went in with Rome, we could turn back.
HL No. More and more we’d follow in Rome’s track.
SL Why stop the Romans making restitution?
HL Because they’re set upon our destitution.
SL Back in the mainstream Church we’d set to work!
HL Rather we’d lose our way in all their murk.
SL But we are strong, with bishops one and three.
HL Alas, the three with the one do not agree.
SL We’re firm in the Faith. Modernists are no threat!
HL We’d easily slide. You want to take a bet?
SL Strong in the Faith, we can afford to agree!
HL But that Faith says, from heretics to flee.
SL But “Gott mit uns”! We are the SSPX!
HL Not if we choose to ignore all prudent checks.
SL Were we approved, Romans would learn from us!
HL O Heavens, no! They’d throw us under the bus.
SL Were we approved, the earth of Rome could quake.
HL But not before to pieces we would shake.
SL Our leader has graces of state. We must obey.
HL Was Paul the Sixth given graces to betray?
SL Rome is now weak, meaning, we could stay strong.
HL For right, Rome’s feeble. Mighty it is for wrong.
SL So what’s the answer, if you’re always right?
How can the Church be rescued from its plight?
HL The Church belongs to God. In his good time
We’ll see his answer, stunning and sublime.
Till then we grieve, and thirst for right, and trust.
That which we cannot cure, endure we must.
From error and the erring stay away,
Even while for their immortal souls we pray.
And tell God’s truth, however few will hear –
As close as the nearest door, his help is near.
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Bishop Williamson's Dramatic Stichomythia has been posted here (http://www.cathinfo.com/index.php/Bishop-Williamson-Eleison-Comments-Bonus-Issue-April-30-2012) on its own thread for 2 days, but has had no comments. I was wondering if it had become invisible!
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Well probably most of them are sedes....even if they attend SSPX chapels. Sedevacantism is straight from hell.
While I agree that some people here have a tendency to draw conclusions too quickly and rashly regarding what is going to happen, I think that I should respond to the above juvenile attack directed against those who believe that the Church is still One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, and who are often scornfully adorned with the epithet of 'sedevacantists'.
I respond that to assert that the Holy Roman Church, Mistress of truth and example for all the Churches spread across the world, can become a perpetual seductress of the faithful of Christ, is a blasphemy which comes straight from hell. This is the constant teaching of the Catholic Church.
I fear that you have a wrong conception of who your enemies are. If your attack was intended against rash judgement taking place in the thread, then please make the effort to state that specifically in the future, instead of making incitements regarding matters that have nothing to do with your accusation.
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Sedevacantism is straight from hell.
Please explain this comment. I'd like to know how you reached this conclusion.
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Sedevacantism is straight from hell.
Please explain this comment. I'd like to know how you reached this conclusion.
Yeah......me too!
Brain glitch! Your probably a 20 year old. They would make statements like that.
The MESSAGE is:
ALL those who are validly baptized are Catholics
ALL traditionals are Catholics
SSPX is Catholic
ALL Sedevacantist groups are Catholic
Do you get it? The devil only has a few us us to work on. He has most of the world in his clutches. Hes attacking ALL traditional Catholics. He knows his time is short.
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Let us remember that it is to our Superior General, and only to him, that has been entrusted by the law of the Church and the will of Archbishop Lefebvre the delicate task of our relations with Rome. As such, he is the only competent authority to take prudent decisions for our Society
Bishop Fellay is the only competent authority?
By the law of the Church? What is he saying here? B Fellay was elected by the SSPX fathers. I guess I forgot that the SSPX believes that they are the guardians of the faith.
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Bishop Fellay is the only competent authority?
By the law of the Church? What is he saying here? B Fellay was elected by the SSPX fathers. I guess I forgot that the SSPX believes that they are the guardians of the faith.
It does leave a person scratching his head.
The SSPX is a "Sacred Union" - the idea that the authority of the elected leader of such a group is to be followed, but the authority of the Pope is not, it's a bit odd to view the laws of the Church that way.
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The latest is that Benelux DS is preparing his flock for a possible agreement
"ABL would have signed" (http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/05/rome-sspx-benelux-district-superior-abp.html)
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I think people need to stay calm. I read this on Ignis Ardens.
Open (American) Letter to Father Rostand:
Dear Father,
First, a little house-keeping: We North American SSPX faithful reluctantly request that you gather-up all your French priest and return to France.
No. Its not that we don't like you, its just that we fail to understand you!
Culturally speaking, I'm sure you can relate. Like the French faithful, we Americans prefer American priests... for American chapels.
Now, to your latest pastoral letter. Father, it only confirms our suspicions, that your superior assigns French priest throughout the SSPX to function as his
political/cultural cronies, based on loyalties to him, rather than the Faith.
But unfortunately, you interpret loyalty to him.. AS loyalty to the Faith ?
Since your gallant countrymen, with their Jansenists tendencies, have done so much to advance the SSPX "soft-line" with the Conciliar church, they should be rewarded. Surely they will take consolation in returning to their native land?
That great nation of 400 cheeses and one Faith... or.. is it Two faiths?
There's another up-side to this request. You might say, "Walla!"
Why? Well because, once again, we innovative Americans, have developed a logistical plan for the perfect conciliar-prelature solution:
That is, the SSPX soft-liners, gloriously arrayed in France, attended to by their German Rahnerite fratres, led, in "union" by that charismatic Swiss Bishop.
Can you just imagine Father... how happy the Holy Father will be?
As a small group of SSPX Catholics, in radiation plagued Japan, begin their pilgrimage this week, let us pray that Our Lady of Akita, intercedes for you and your fratres.
Incredulous, SSPX hard-liner
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"Marie-Elisabeth" sought a clarification from Fr. Marc Vernoy. The reply was published on another forum. Perhaps Fr Vernoy will confirm that he indeed is the author.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9217&st=125
Dear ,
I did not speak that way.
Deal is not a word of my vocabulary. However, we may be careful about any schismatic spirit. Our present situation is a daily challenge that requires a great prudence. I place my confidence in our superiors, who have the grace of prudence as a consequence of their holy duty.
I did not speak about Bishop Williamson in particular, I respect him and I love him, as he ordained me.
This report is distorted and not honest and I do not appreciate such virtual tribunal.
1° People should avoid all these gossips on internet. It is completely useless, it won’t change ANYTHING, it is just leading to spiritual laziness and many bad habits against truth and brotherly charity.
2° When words are reported in such ways, using pseudo is not honest catholic behavior.
3° The faithful know that they can always have an appointment with me, in case they need any clarification.
4° In this time of trial for the S.S.P.X, one should better do everything to secure our unity founded on our fight for Faith and Priesthood, than working for the divisive spirit, Satan. Prayer and silence will never deceive.
If anybody wants to know exactly what I think, they just have to come and listen to me or read the statements of Fr. Rostand.
I sincerely hope that this clarification will help you.
The only good thing we may do in this time of uncertainty is to pray the Good Lord.
God bless you,
Fr. Marc Vernoy"
It has not been confirmed if this is indeed from Fr Vernoy but it raises questions. Perhaps this Marie Elizabeth can clarify a few points.
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Fantastic advice here from Dumb Ox. Another thing I'm very impressed with is how hardline the womenfolk are. Very impressive.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9263&st=25
I truly believe that SSPX can be saved from the debacle and that it will be saved if everyone who cares enough fulfills their physical duty in the combat and well as their spiritual duty.
The most important physical action that must be achieved at the present time is that important news is spread far and wide, by way of talking, by printed pamphlet, by email or by internet posting.
If information such as has been reported is to become a public service as intended, then that information must be consciously, zealously and accurately spread among priests and faithful. The vast majority of people of whose lives, and those of their families, that these events will have a fundamental bearing upon are completely oblivious to what is unfolding. They must know in order to be able to resist.
What type of things must they know?
They must be made aware of such things as:
1) The joint letter of opposition to any deal sent by the three bishops to the one, and Bishop Williamson's Eleison Comments.
2) The visits paid to Bishop Fellay by +Tissier and +de Galarreta, and that of the Superiors of the allied Religious Orders, to express their opposition in person.
3) The rebellion of the great bulk of French and German priests when Menzingen attempted to sell acceptance of a canonical deal to them.
4) The opposition publicly expressed by District Superiors such as Fr. de Cacqueray and Fr. Morgan.
5) Statements from those favouring a deal that show an obvious watering down or straightforward denial of fundamental SSPX positions, such as those identified by members of this forum on various threads, can be printed out and highlighted for priests and parishioners to read.
6) The same can be done with statements of Archbishop Lefebvre, particularly from the latter years, that decry the possibility of dealing with Conciliarists or accepting Conciliarism in any way, shape or form.
7) The revelation from the Florida conference that doctrinal agreement is not at all necessary and that what SSPX will actually do if they accept a no-strings-attached canonical deal is to accept that two religions (and more) can exist in One Church, by negating one of the four marks of the True Church.
Much can be actively done to keep both priests and laity informed and up-to-date with news of how things are developing. Much must be done if SSPX is to be saved from this debacle.
But people must consciously communicate the news in order for it to spread widely.
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The most important physical action that must be achieved at the present time is that important news is spread far and wide, by way of talking, by printed pamphlet, by email or by internet posting.
Each person can print off half a dozen or so copies and stand outside the chapel/Mass centre gate. At this stage it is vital each person speaks with their priest. It's not necessary to be confrontational but it is necessary work.
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Dumb Ox reminds me of someone else; he has contacts in high places. :reporter: The ladies' knitting circle on Ignis Atdens are sharpening their neddles for action ..... and we are expecting some French treachery, being Anglo-Saxons!
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The ladies' knitting circle on Ignis Atdens are sharpening their neddles for action
Some of them are militant. It's impressive. Often it would be easy to assume the womenfolk want compromise. I wasn't just making reference to the Ignis gals but the womenfolk in general. There will always be a few "happy out" with a deal but by and large the women are holding firm. Fair play.
I'm looking beyond the internet fora. The ground work is far more important.
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Rorate Caeli, who favour an agreement posted this.
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/05/rome-sspx-us-district-superior-matter.html
Rome-SSPX
U.S. District Superior: "The matter is in the hands of the Holy Father and we are waiting for His decision."
The Superior of the American District of the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) asks for a special novena regarding the current moment, in a "Letter to friends and benefactors" that has just been released:
May 2012
Dear Friends and Benefactors,
A lot of rumors are being spread regarding the relations between the Roman authorities and the Society of St. Pius X. On this regard, I wish to simply remind the communiqué from the General House of the Society of April 18, 2012:
In a letter dated April 17, 2012, the Superior General of the Society of St. Pius X responded to the request for clarification that had been made to him on March 16 by Cardinal William Levada concerning the Doctrinal Preamble delivered on September 14, 2011. As the press release dated today from the Ecclesia Dei Commission indicates, the text of this response “will be examined by the dicastery (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) then submitted to the Holy Father for his judgment".
The matter is in the hands of the Holy Father and we are waiting for His decision.
Let us remember that it is to our Superior General, and only to him, that has been entrusted by the law of the Church and the will of Archbishop Lefebvre the delicate task of our relations with Rome. As such, he is the only competent authority to take prudent decisions for our Society. Because of his function and his 18 years of leadership in keeping the Faith and seeking the common good of the Church, we renew to him all our confidence, trust and respectful obedience in this difficult time. Our filial piety to him, as to the Sovereign Pontiff, pushes us to do more than usual in these unusual circuмstances: we desire to bring to them the support of all your prayers.
To pray is indeed the most important, and as a matter of fact, the only thing we can do now. I would like to ask you to double your efforts in the Rosary Crusade, which will end on Pentecost Sunday (May 27, 2012), keeping in mind the striking results of the previous ones. I wish also to solicit your generosity in offering a novena to the Holy Ghost.
The intention of this novena will be that the Holy Ghost may give the graces of light and strength to the Holy Father, Benedict XVI, and to the Superior General of the Society, Bishop Fellay.
The novena consists of praying the Veni Creator Spiritus and adding the Memorare (Remember, O Most Gracious Virgin Mary) starting on May 8 and ending on May 16, the vigil of the feast of the Ascension of Our Lord.
I authorize the priests to add these prayers just before or after their daily Mass.
Let us pray that the Good Lord may keep us all united in the Faith and in a corps spirit around our Superior, working for the Restoration of all things in Christ as ever.
In the Immaculate Heart of Mary,
Fr. Arnaud Rostand
Question to Fr Rostand. Where are these rumours being spread?
Interesting that Fr. Rostand uses the argument from authority just like the Romans do: "He is the Superior General/He is the Pope: Who are you to question him?"
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I wonder how many readers see that this thread is straight from hell.
Well probably most of them are sedes....even if they attend SSPX chapels. Sedevacantism is straight from hell.
Fellay may or may not be doing the right thing. If there is a deal, we will have to see what it looks like before passing judgment.
Of course, if Fellay refuses, it's not like these sedes will ever apologize or retract what they've said. They are their own little popes after all.
If there is a deal, and it's bad, then I will look to Bishop W. for guidance....hopefully he'll do something.
I started this thread and I am obviously no sede!
Are the 3 other bishops who oppose the sellout also from hell?
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Interesting that Fr. Rostand uses the argument from authority just like the Romans do: "He is the Superior General/He is the Pope: Who are you to question him?"
Excellent point.
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Yes, not ALL those who have been validly baptized are Catholic. You can lose your membership in the Church by falling into heresy.
All Traditionalists are Catholic, because those who aren't can't be called Traditional, they're neo-Trads.
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Fantastic advice here from Dumb Ox. Another thing I'm very impressed with is how hardline the womenfolk are. Very impressive.
Dumb Ox seems to have quite a few buffaloed...people get down on bended knee when he speaks...or writes. Is he the spokesman for IA or something? The Dalai Lama of IA? If he is trying to avert a sellout, and start a revolution against the sell-out soft-liners, then why doesn't he just say so?
To make a long story short....he gets on my nerves.
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Fantastic advice here from Dumb Ox. Another thing I'm very impressed with is how hardline the womenfolk are. Very impressive.
Dumb Ox seems to have quite a few buffaloed...people get down on bended knee when he speaks...or writes. Is he the spokesman for IA or something? The Dalai Lama of IA? If he is trying to avert a sellout, and start a revolution against the sell-out soft-liners, then why doesn't he just say so?
To make a long story short....he gets on my nerves.
Really? I think Henry V sounds like a broken record.
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I just wanted to simplify things for Brainglitch, who thinks the sede movement is from hell!
KISS
Keep it simple stupid! We are not judging whether people are in heresy or not.
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Fantastic advice here from Dumb Ox. Another thing I'm very impressed with is how hardline the womenfolk are. Very impressive.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9263&st=25
I truly believe that SSPX can be saved from the debacle and that it will be saved if everyone who cares enough fulfills their physical duty in the combat and well as their spiritual duty.
The most important physical action that must be achieved at the present time is that important news is spread far and wide, by way of talking, by printed pamphlet, by email or by internet posting.
If information such as has been reported is to become a public service as intended, then that information must be consciously, zealously and accurately spread among priests and faithful. The vast majority of people of whose lives, and those of their families, that these events will have a fundamental bearing upon are completely oblivious to what is unfolding. They must know in order to be able to resist.
What type of things must they know?
They must be made aware of such things as:
1) The joint letter of opposition to any deal sent by the three bishops to the one, and Bishop Williamson's Eleison Comments.
2) The visits paid to Bishop Fellay by +Tissier and +de Galarreta, and that of the Superiors of the allied Religious Orders, to express their opposition in person.
3) The rebellion of the great bulk of French and German priests when Menzingen attempted to sell acceptance of a canonical deal to them.
4) The opposition publicly expressed by District Superiors such as Fr. de Cacqueray and Fr. Morgan.
5) Statements from those favouring a deal that show an obvious watering down or straightforward denial of fundamental SSPX positions, such as those identified by members of this forum on various threads, can be printed out and highlighted for priests and parishioners to read.
6) The same can be done with statements of Archbishop Lefebvre, particularly from the latter years, that decry the possibility of dealing with Conciliarists or accepting Conciliarism in any way, shape or form.
7) The revelation from the Florida conference that doctrinal agreement is not at all necessary and that what SSPX will actually do if they accept a no-strings-attached canonical deal is to accept that two religions (and more) can exist in One Church, by negating one of the four marks of the True Church.
Much can be actively done to keep both priests and laity informed and up-to-date with news of how things are developing. Much must be done if SSPX is to be saved from this debacle.
But people must consciously communicate the news in order for it to spread widely.
While these things are interesting to read, and seem true, there is no factual evidence. I would never give advice according to it.
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Capt McQuigg said:
brainglitch said:
Sedevacantism is straight from hell.
Please explain this comment. I'd like to know how you reached this conclusion.
Yeah......me too!
Brain glitch! Your probably a 20 year old. They would make statements like that.
The MESSAGE is:
ALL those who are validly baptized are Catholics
ALL traditionals are Catholics
SSPX is Catholic
ALL Sedevacantist groups are Catholic
Do you get it? The devil only has a few us us to work on. He has most of the world in his clutches. Hes attacking ALL traditional Catholics. He knows his time is short.
Just for the record.....my previous post was myself reverting back to my bad old habit of trolling, primarily to flip out the insane guests who post in the anonymous subforum, and who are certainly reading these threads......it was much more fun on the Huffington Post. Liberals are a lot dumber and a lot angrier than your average trad. Ergo, a lot more fun to troll. I apologize if I offended anyone.
That being said, I say sedevacantism is straight from hell because of personal experience with sedes. My family happened to know one rather prominent sedevacantist back in the day, before he went sede. Eventually, said individual went sede. The SSPX priest that was at our chapel-one of the most traditional, zealous, and holy priests of any group or order-went to see him. The man opened the door to see who was there, and slammed it in his face, since he would not talk, nor would he let his family talk to a "heretic". There are others...
If you want to get a flavor of what sedevacantism is all about, just take a look at the thread in the anonymous subforum about that sede chapel. It's straight from the devil himself. Catholics, overwhelmed by the crisis, making themselves into their own popes since the true popes won't act like....well, like good Popes!
Maybe there are some good-willed sedes out there, and if so I apologize for offending you.
But by their fruits you shall know them....the fruits of sedevacantism have been almost completely negative, IMO.
ALL those who are validly baptized are Catholics
True (if you hold otherwise you would have to hold to the heretical position that condemend heretics, etc., have to be re-baptized), but how often do people on this forum refer to those who attend the Novus Ordo as "heretics" and "infidels"? Certainly many are heretical but there are many who are simply confused and led astray by evil people. I was Novus Ordo for a long time, so I know.
ALL traditionals are Catholics
Ummm....ok. So?
SSPX is Catholic
True, but their leaders may be preparing a Campos-style sellout......hmmm......
ALL Sedevacantist groups are Catholic
Catholic, but good? Do Catholics engage in the kind of behavior that characterizes most sede groups? The infighting, the petty accusations, the constant formation of splinter groups, the declaration of personal opinions as dogma? Heck, even the Dimond brothers are "Catholic" in the strict sense of the term (the only Catholics left on earth, LOL!). They're awful Catholics, but Catholics nevertheless. "Catholic" does not always equal "good".
Brain glitch! Your probably a 20 year old.
Yup, pretty much.
They would make statements like that.
I know right?
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Brain glitch! Your probably a 20 year old.
Well, my dear what would you know at 20? HMMMMM?
I have been a sede since 1968 when the canon of the mass changed.
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Fantastic advice here from Dumb Ox. Another thing I'm very impressed with is how hardline the womenfolk are. Very impressive.
Dumb Ox seems to have quite a few buffaloed...people get down on bended knee when he speaks...or writes. Is he the spokesman for IA or something? The Dalai Lama of IA? If he is trying to avert a sellout, and start a revolution against the sell-out soft-liners, then why doesn't he just say so?
To make a long story short....he gets on my nerves.
Really? I think Henry V sounds like a broken record.
Henry V? Who cares...but Dumb Ox is in the know...and he knows it...and everyone around him thinks he's the last gospel.
I'm just saying...quit acting like your some super-educated priest, and start your revolution like a man.
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My family happened to know one rather prominent sedevacantist back in the day, before he went sede. Eventually, said individual went sede. The SSPX priest that was at our chapel-one of the most traditional, zealous, and holy priests of any group or order-went to see him. The man opened the door to see who was there, and slammed it in his face, since he would not talk, nor would he let his family talk to a "heretic". There are others...
So because one sede went overboard, all sedes must be like that? That is not logical reasoning. A Novus Ordite could take that same argument and twist into something like this: "Sedes are Traditional Catholics. Sedes are crazy. Therefore, at least a majority of Traditional Catholics are crazy".
If you want to get a flavor of what sedevacantism is all about, just take a look at the thread in the anonymous subforum about that sede chapel. It's straight from the devil himself. Catholics, overwhelmed by the crisis, making themselves into their own popes since the true popes won't act like....well, like good Popes!
If they don't act like true Popes, why consider them Popes at all?
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Henry V? Who cares
I think it's relevant because everyone who posts on or at least reads IA enough knows that Henry V and Dumb Ox are nearly always going back and forth.
but Dumb Ox is in the know...and he knows it...and everyone around him thinks he's the last gospel.
I doubt that. I don't think that. Of course, I also don't think there's anything wrong with opposing a deal between the Society and Rome.
I'm just saying...quit acting like your some super-educated priest, and start your revolution like a man.
Huh?
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You know...three years ago on IA...the Fellayite soft-liners chided and ridiculed the hard-liners there on the forum...well now, those hardliners are gone or have been banned or chased off, and those soft-liners are the "new" hardliners, turning on their own Superior General that they so obediently glorified three years before and suddenly finding a generous and loyal sentiment towards +Williamson...it would be humorous if it weren't so pathetic...
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Henry V? Who cares
I think it's relevant because everyone who posts on or at least reads IA enough knows that Henry V and Dumb Ox are nearly always going back and forth.
but Dumb Ox is in the know...and he knows it...and everyone around him thinks he's the last gospel.
I doubt that. I don't think that. Of course, I also don't think there's anything wrong with opposing a deal between the Society and Rome.
I'm just saying...quit acting like your some super-educated priest, and start your revolution like a man.
Huh?
Sorry for any confusion...my last line was addressed to Dumb Ox, not you SS...
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Oh, ok. It's fine.
God Bless.
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Fantastic advice here from Dumb Ox. Another thing I'm very impressed with is how hardline the womenfolk are. Very impressive.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9263&st=25
I truly believe that SSPX can be saved from the debacle and that it will be saved if everyone who cares enough fulfills their physical duty in the combat and well as their spiritual duty.
The most important physical action that must be achieved at the present time is that important news is spread far and wide, by way of talking, by printed pamphlet, by email or by internet posting.
If information such as has been reported is to become a public service as intended, then that information must be consciously, zealously and accurately spread among priests and faithful. The vast majority of people of whose lives, and those of their families, that these events will have a fundamental bearing upon are completely oblivious to what is unfolding. They must know in order to be able to resist.
What type of things must they know?
They must be made aware of such things as:
1) The joint letter of opposition to any deal sent by the three bishops to the one, and Bishop Williamson's Eleison Comments.
2) The visits paid to Bishop Fellay by +Tissier and +de Galarreta, and that of the Superiors of the allied Religious Orders, to express their opposition in person.
3) The rebellion of the great bulk of French and German priests when Menzingen attempted to sell acceptance of a canonical deal to them.
4) The opposition publicly expressed by District Superiors such as Fr. de Cacqueray and Fr. Morgan.
5) Statements from those favouring a deal that show an obvious watering down or straightforward denial of fundamental SSPX positions, such as those identified by members of this forum on various threads, can be printed out and highlighted for priests and parishioners to read.
6) The same can be done with statements of Archbishop Lefebvre, particularly from the latter years, that decry the possibility of dealing with Conciliarists or accepting Conciliarism in any way, shape or form.
7) The revelation from the Florida conference that doctrinal agreement is not at all necessary and that what SSPX will actually do if they accept a no-strings-attached canonical deal is to accept that two religions (and more) can exist in One Church, by negating one of the four marks of the True Church.
Much can be actively done to keep both priests and laity informed and up-to-date with news of how things are developing. Much must be done if SSPX is to be saved from this debacle.
But people must consciously communicate the news in order for it to spread widely.
While these things are interesting to read, and seem true, there is no factual evidence. I would never give advice according to it.
You reckon. What Dumb Ox wrote is based on factual evidence. Ignore it if you wish.
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You know...three years ago on IA...the Fellayite soft-liners chided and ridiculed the hard-liners there on the forum...well now, those hardliners are gone or have been banned or chased off, and those soft-liners are the "new" hardliners, turning on their own Superior General that they so obediently glorified three years before and suddenly finding a generous and loyal sentiment towards +Williamson...it would be humorous if it weren't so pathetic...
I feel it more necessary to highlight this.
I truly believe that SSPX can be saved from the debacle and that it will be saved if everyone who cares enough fulfills their physical duty in the combat and well as their spiritual duty.
The most important physical action that must be achieved at the present time is that important news is spread far and wide, by way of talking, by printed pamphlet, by email or by internet posting.
If information such as has been reported is to become a public service as intended, then that information must be consciously, zealously and accurately spread among priests and faithful. The vast majority of people of whose lives, and those of their families, that these events will have a fundamental bearing upon are completely oblivious to what is unfolding. They must know in order to be able to resist.
What type of things must they know?
They must be made aware of such things as:
1) The joint letter of opposition to any deal sent by the three bishops to the one, and Bishop Williamson's Eleison Comments.
2) The visits paid to Bishop Fellay by +Tissier and +de Galarreta, and that of the Superiors of the allied Religious Orders, to express their opposition in person.
3) The rebellion of the great bulk of French and German priests when Menzingen attempted to sell acceptance of a canonical deal to them.
4) The opposition publicly expressed by District Superiors such as Fr. de Cacqueray and Fr. Morgan.
5) Statements from those favouring a deal that show an obvious watering down or straightforward denial of fundamental SSPX positions, such as those identified by members of this forum on various threads, can be printed out and highlighted for priests and parishioners to read.
6) The same can be done with statements of Archbishop Lefebvre, particularly from the latter years, that decry the possibility of dealing with Conciliarists or accepting Conciliarism in any way, shape or form.
7) The revelation from the Florida conference that doctrinal agreement is not at all necessary and that what SSPX will actually do if they accept a no-strings-attached canonical deal is to accept that two religions (and more) can exist in One Church, by negating one of the four marks of the True Church.
Much can be actively done to keep both priests and laity informed and up-to-date with news of how things are developing. Much must be done if SSPX is to be saved from this debacle.
But people must consciously communicate the news in order for it to spread widely.
-
Maybe there are some good-willed sedes out there, and if so I apologize for offending you.
Your experiences are just that; your own experiences. Decent and intelligent people like John Lane and John Daly are almost never mentioned. You seem to be quite capable of rational discussion on other subjects, which is why I find it strange that you appeared to lose this ability as soon as you started writing about the empty Seat.
The people out there who are making scandalous scarecrows out of themselves, usurping authority which they do not possess, are not speaking for other Catholics who are sincerely striving to uphold genuine Catholic doctrine in a time of widespread apostasy. I am, in any case, sorry if you have had bad experiences with people who were driven by a misplaced zeal.
As for offending anyone, I can only speak for myself, but I am not worried about being offended. The salvation of souls is what is important, and we are all supposed to help each other get to Heaven. This can only be done by defending the right doctrine, and this includes doctrine regarding the nature of Holy Mother Church.
By the way, a 'sede' is a seat, and I am no seat, but a human being who is a Catholic Christian in communion with the Holy Apostolic See of St. Peter, which, alas, happens to be empty at present.
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You know...three years ago on IA...the Fellayite soft-liners chided and ridiculed the hard-liners there on the forum...well now, those hardliners are gone or have been banned or chased off, and those soft-liners are the "new" hardliners, turning on their own Superior General that they so obediently glorified three years before and suddenly finding a generous and loyal sentiment towards +Williamson...it would be humorous if it weren't so pathetic...
Yes, blogs serve a moving population and reflect the current climate. What is in vogue today will be forgotten tomorrow. When I joined IA years ago, being a SSPX-friendly site, the Society was inviolable and there were enough groupies around to remind you of that. Bp. W was viewed as a lovable English eccentric and tolerated because he was afterall a bishop. A maverick priest disturbing the Society peace would have been viewed very differently. It is still hard praising priests who are no longer with the Society without getting gibes.
Maybe every faction has its day and certain opinions assert themselves when a vacuum is created. And some of those opinions also come from those who change with the weather. That is how elections swing. If only some people were not so fickle!
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Dumb Ox reminds me of someone else; he has contacts in high places. :reporter:
Fantastic advice here from Dumb Ox. Another thing I'm very impressed with is how hardline the womenfolk are. Very impressive.
While these things are interesting to read, and seem true, there is no factual evidence. I would never give advice according to it.
You reckon. What Dumb Ox wrote is based on factual evidence. Ignore it if you wish.
It may be factual, but there is no way of proving it JG. I'm glad the truth seems to be being pursued. That's good. But, if we're being honest, its all hearsay. Is it possibly, even probably, true? Sure. But would I base my spiritual life on it? I think not. Why else would Wessex speak about 'contacts' in high places; this may be good for him, but once this information has been passed down, two, three, even to the forth degree, how much credibility will people give it? I don't think much; and I would fear for my own reputation. Printing papers and distributing them at my chapel based on everything that an honest man would merely consider 'supposed'. If it was me who got the article, I would say- prove it. Substantiate it. I'm not gonna take the word of someone who continually says "I have it on good word", merely because they say it. Would you? Either we can substantiate this information, or we're all like old flibbertigibbets and cannot.
Like I said, it sounds legitimate, but the Truth will come out eventually. What do you think?
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Fantastic advice here from Dumb Ox. Another thing I'm very impressed with is how hardline the womenfolk are. Very impressive.
Dumb Ox seems to have quite a few buffaloed...people get down on bended knee when he speaks...or writes. Is he the spokesman for IA or something? The Dalai Lama of IA? If he is trying to avert a sellout, and start a revolution against the sell-out soft-liners, then why doesn't he just say so?
To make a long story short....he gets on my nerves.
Really? I think Henry V sounds like a broken record.
To be fair, Gregorio Sarto did say to him that fair enough if Henry V is happy with a deal, he should atleast admit the consequences of a deal.
Judas Sells Out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pAzuGvZD54
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Even Clare over on IA admits she is not sure about the SSPX accepting a Personal prelature. I'm not suggesting she supports a sell out but we must be honest some amongst us would be quite happy being controlled by NewChurch. Even Christ at the end called Judas 'friend' when he betrayed him.
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A participant on another forum mentions this from Fr N Pfluger. Fr N Pfluger is an associate of Max Krah.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9296&view=getnewpost
Father N. Pfluger gave last Sunday (29. 4. 2012) a speech in Hattersheim/Germany about a possible agreement with Rome.
In his speech Fr. Pfluger explained that Msgr. Fellay does no longer insist on a clarification of the theological differences between the Conciliar Church and the SSPX before an agreement could be accepted.
The reason for this change is, that the Pope is personally so interested in an agreement, that he does no longer demand the acceptance of Vatican Council II or the NOM from the SSPX. He is also ready to give the SSPX full autonomy from the bishops.
If the society doesn’t accept this offer, then it has to expect a new excommunication on the grounds of schism.
In his letter from April 15th, Msgr. Fellay wrote, that he would accept this new offer and announced an agreement if Rome really doesn’t demand anything more.
Agreement with Rome, even without doctrinal agreement
http://www.spes-unica.de/aktuell/nachrichten/2012/120501_abkommen/
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New material has emerged regarding Dello Sarto
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9298
In light of all the recent evidence of the society heading towards a “marriage” with Concilliar Rome, I thought that it might be a worthwhile exercise to revisit some of the companies specific to Switzerland and Germany, that the hierarchy of the Society “own” or are directors/presidents thereof. Swiss company records give a lot more “free” information than other countries, so it is more transparent to find relevant information, without having to pay for that information as in other countries. Swiss company records are still limited insofar as they require a fee to check on shareholder information, company returns and such. Therefore in order to do detailed research of these companies one needs to outlay significant fees, and so for the moment we have to rely on the free information.
What would be the purpose of revisiting this? Hopefully we can build up more of this puzzle. The society is possibly embarking on massive changes, and perhaps a second glance at these companies by the intelligent IA community may help with the puzzle, and maybe we can understand if motives are good or otherwise. Not implying that there is anything wrong per se, but rather let’s examine the [factual] evidence.
There has been an obvious flurry of corporate activity especially since late 2008 by the SSPX. The most controversial one is Dello Sarto AG, a fully paid commercial company with a working capital of CHF100,000.
See: http://www.moneyhouse.ch/en/u/p/g/dello_sa...3.033.031-9.htm
Controversial in that a lay person has been appointed with single signature authority and is a member of the Administrative board, and sole member of the Management board. Furthermore, that lay person has very close business ties to another person who represents a company that is auditor to Dello Sarto. Yes, he is the same person who appears to have gone out of his way to destroy Bishop Williamson’s reputation. The other person with single signature authority is +BF, and the other two Priests – Frs. Pfluger and Baudot require each of their respective signatures. Conjecture: The lawyer layman, it appears, is more trustworthy than the two Priests to be have been given single signatory authority.
The stated purpose of Dello Sarto is (google translated): “Advice on asset management issues and the care and management of assets of domestic and foreign individuals, corporations, foundations and other bodies, particularly of natural and legal persons who are of Catholic morals, religion and morality in their traditional sense of obligation and see, and the execution of projects of all kinds, especially construction projects for the persons named, as well as advising on the implementation of these projects; whole purpose paraphrase statutes in accordance with”
Then there is the German trust “Jaidhofer Private Foundation” a SSPX entity that the same lawyer as above uses/lists as his sponsor for the EMBA Global (Business School). As with many private foundations or trusts, the internal structure, beneficiaries, trustees can be made opaque to external eyes. For lack of a better word, that information is secret.
Both Dello Sarto and Jaidhofer were set up in 2008 to begin operation in 2009.
Another SSPX company that was curious was STPI Société Tradition Patrimoine Immobilier Sàrl. It has a fully paid up capital of CHF160,000 requiring the signatures of two of the following: +BF, and Frs. Baudot and Schmidberger. The current shareholders are: “The share capital of CHF 160'000 now consists of 160 shares of CHF 1,000, held by Bernard Fellay, Schmidberger Franz, now in Stuttgart (Germany), Alfonso Genua Galarreta and Niklaus Pfluger, Menzingen now, all four each with 40 shares of CHF 1,000 (previously every four each with a share of CHF 40,000). Emeric Baudot was elected chairman of the managers.”
See: http://www.moneyhouse.ch/en/u/p/stpi_socie...1.031.472-9.htm
It was originally set up in 2002 with the following aim: [translated]“buying, selling, brokerage, management, promotion and enhancement of buildings, including that it can make available to the Priestly Society of St. Pius X for its activities, and any real estate, management and administration of securities of all kinds.”
There has been a subtle change in the company’s statutes: [translated] “Statutes updated on 9 November 2010. Obligation to provide ancillary benefits, preferential rights, preemptive or emption: for details, see the articles.”
Obviously one needs to sight the articles for explanation of these changes, but the wording appears to be consistent with providing the shareholders (or other parties) with distributions and/or other benefits. Curious that this clause was added – and again – it was after 2008/2009.
There is also a USA connection, yet this too is limited on the information that can be found out.
See: http://www.corporationwiki.com/Texas/El-Pa...c/32030676.aspx
You can go through other US States besides Texas, and you will also see +BF, Frs. Schmidberger and Baudot as part of the organizations.
What does this all mean? Perhaps nothing. But as I stated in the beginning, in the light of current activities, maybe this is now telling us something new?
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The vast majority of people of whose lives, and those of their families, that these events will have a fundamental bearing upon are completely oblivious to what is unfolding. They must know in order to be able to resist.
Regarding the video uploaded by 'Oblationem', it is conceded "It’s our own fault by not protesting (at the time) what Bp. Fellay has said about Vatican II, and his Ideological persecution inside SSPX. We always thought he was working for our benefit, but the SSPX has metamorphosed into a vehicle of the New Order - just like the VII frog in the pot of water. If he can’t be voted out at the next Chapter, the SSPX is done for. Good priests, yes – but faulty leadership."
Hopefully now SSPX faithful show a bit more teeth than they did during 'Krahgate'. In ways I believe 'Freshwater' is wasting his/her time.
They get what they deserve to be honest. I look forward to this heroic resistance to NewChurch.It's up to SSPX attendee's now to show they have teeth.
This "Oblationem" makes sense as it is peoples own fault for not questioning and were beguiled.
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As with V2, the reforms will happen by default. The reponse so far to Bp. Fellay's initiative has been about doctrinal differences and therefore how the talks would fail on that score. However, as with V2, doctrine can now be set aside and this whole business will rest on matters of integration. This is where things can fall apart or where the leadership forces on the faithful an unholy mess. The membership and laity could nip this in the bud if determined enough, but it will be a tough fight.
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Hopefully now SSPX faithful show a bit more teeth than they did during 'Krahgate'.
John,
I fear we are still in Krahgate, perhaps its culmination. This fellow was brought on board for some particular purpose. Reasoning forward from earlier Krahgate activities, it seems likely that he has helped to structure the assets and order of the Society so as to consolidate legal control under one person, as a protection against a refusal of others to go along with this "joining".
Father Rostand's letter has only a few pertinent sentences which lay the groundwork for the claim that one Bishop has both all authority and the sole mandate of the Archbishop to commit the Society and its assets to this type of agreement. It was a pre-emptive shot across the bow of those who might oppose the Superior General. The ensuing battle to be led by Mr. Krah who I am sure is well prepared and ready, when ordered into the fray.
We shall know soon.
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I'm more in agreement now with Bernadette and believe whilst Dumb Ox is well intentioned, it's a waste of time. What was really done regarding 'Krahgate' and there are still people in SSPX circles who would jump into the fire if Bishop Fellay said do. I have had it with SSPX politics.
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I'm more in agreement now with Bernadette and believe whilst Dumb Ox is well intentioned, it's a waste of time. What was really done regarding 'Krahgate' and there are still people in SSPX circles who would jump into the fire if Bishop Fellay said do. I have had it with SSPX politics.
Those who lined up with their unconditional defense of +Fellay from the very beginning as he tossed +Williamson under the bus and as the Krahgate affair exploded, those who put undying loyalty and trust in +Fellay in the manner of blind obedience...who refused to pull their heads out of the sand are now experiencing a rude awakening as the scales fall from their eyes...too bad for them, it looks like too little, too late....
Here is an interesting post from Hollingsworth on that forum of nitwits who put +Fellay on a pedestal...there existed for awhile there a viciousness towards anyone who didn't toe the sspx party line and in a pack mentality they ran off anyone who tried to address the truth..they just didn't want to hear it: So yeah...the hissy fits come a bit late...
That being the case, some of you should have started your hissy fits much earlier. The "discussions," from the very beginning, were always aimed towards an agreement or accomodation of some kind. It was never the intention of a '95 percenter' like Bp.Fellay to do anything other than try to iron out the five percent of disagreement remaining. You all knew, as Fr. Meramo and others have pointed out, that Bp. F was ready to do a deal with Rome a decade ago. Why all this outcry now by members of the newly created category of "hard-liners?" We've even got a card-carrying SV priest adding to the hue and cry. Absolutely amazing! Fr. Cekada is upset over doing a deal with a pope, who, he has concluded, is not a pope at all, whose chair is empty, who, as far as this priest is concerned, has gone 'poof'! This is 'Don Quijote' jousting with an invisible windmill.
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I'm more in agreement now with Bernadette and believe whilst Dumb Ox is well intentioned, it's a waste of time. What was really done regarding 'Krahgate' and there are still people in SSPX circles who would jump into the fire if Bishop Fellay said do. I have had it with SSPX politics.
Those who lined up with their unconditional defense of +Fellay from the very beginning as he tossed +Williamson under the bus and as the Krahgate affair exploded, those who put undying loyalty and trust in +Fellay in the manner of blind obedience...who refused to pull their heads out of the sand are now experiencing a rude awakening as the scales fall from their eyes...too bad for them, it looks like too little, too late....
Here is an interesting post from Hollingsworth on that forum of nitwits who put +Fellay on a pedestal...there existed for awhile there a viciousness towards anyone who didn't toe the sspx party line and in a pack mentality they ran off anyone who tried to address the truth..they just didn't want to hear it: So yeah...the hissy fits come a bit late...
That being the case, some of you should have started your hissy fits much earlier. The "discussions," from the very beginning, were always aimed towards an agreement or accomodation of some kind. It was never the intention of a '95 percenter' like Bp.Fellay to do anything other than try to iron out the five percent of disagreement remaining. You all knew, as Fr. Meramo and others have pointed out, that Bp. F was ready to do a deal with Rome a decade ago. Why all this outcry now by members of the newly created category of "hard-liners?" We've even got a card-carrying SV priest adding to the hue and cry. Absolutely amazing! Fr. Cekada is upset over doing a deal with a pope, who, he has concluded, is not a pope at all, whose chair is empty, who, as far as this priest is concerned, has gone 'poof'! This is 'Don Quijote' jousting with an invisible windmill.
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Edit
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It was wrong of me to suggest Dumb Ox is wasting his time. I was just teasing.
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An important post from Gregorio Sarto. I did notice in a photograph of when Fr N Pfluger visited Britain a few months ago he clearly is bald. Prayers for Fr Pfluger if indeed he is seriously ill.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9296&st=25
Ps- a few people in Germany tell me Fr. Pfluger looks seriously ill, like he's not got long left to live, perhaps cancer... Can someone post the picture of him from the Spes Unica blog
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http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9296&st=50
News from the proverbial grapevine:
Fr. Pfluger is in France now, touring around converting people to the idea of going Roman to "help" the Pope. Most recently he was at Romagnes (a Fanjeaux Dominican school) where he preached a retreat to the girls, and also preached to the faithful at large.
Amongst the other arguments he used as an analogy the image of a burning building - 'the Pope is asking us for help, if someone in a burning building asked for help in putting out the fire you wouldn't want to wait until the building brunt down so that you could beuild a completely new one, would you? The right thing for us to do is for us to run and help' (I paraphrase).
I am yet again amazed that anyone would insult our intelligence with such facile reasoning, but more amazed that it could be a Society preist! I hope not too many of the French fall for it.
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Salve fellow catholics,
A short while ago Fr Niklaus Pfluger was preaching religious exercises, when suddenly his hair started to fall out in bunches: head hear, eyebrows. He then had to abort the exercises.
Some naive fathers including the one with the same name as this thread's topic speculated that "probably Fr Pfluger had been poisoned"...
I don't know whether Fr Pfluger is ill or not, but fore sure he's a liberal and that's the problem.
Today he looks like this and persons who know him well hardly recognize him anymore :
Picture 1 (http://www.spes-unica.de/aktuell/nachrichten/detail.php?image=aktuell/nachrichten/2012/120501_abkommen/1), Picture 2 (http://www.spes-unica.de/aktuell/nachrichten/detail.php?image=aktuell/nachrichten/2012/120501_abkommen/2), from his sellout preaching in German Hattersheim (http://www.spes-unica.de/aktuell/nachrichten/2012/120501_abkommen/) on 1 May 2012)
Let's recall that it was Fr Pfluger who in February 2010 publicly started the following malicious rumour about Bishop Williamson, during Fr Pfluger's interview with his and Krah's pal Wensierski from the high finance's German magazine The Spiegel (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,druck-675163,00.html) :
Unpredictable Behavior
Pfluger is also concerned about the health of the 69-year-old bishop, who has apparently had Parkinson's disease for several years. Could this explain his moody, unpredictable behavior? Pfluger and his fellow Pius Brothers have often been irritated by the emails they receive on a regular basis from London.
[..]
Well, the Almighty always has the last word!
God bless Bishop Williamson and his clerical brothers in arms (".. with bishops ... three").
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Positive to see this from 'Gabriel'.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9327
Should we stop putting money in the collection at SSPX Masses until it's known whether an agreement has been reached? I don't know what arrangements the individual Districts have about property, but people could always put aside the money they would have given, and either give it later if there's no agreement, or give it to whoever they are supporting if there is.
I didn't put in any today, in case it went off to Della Sarto or somewhere.
Would this help?
Every chapel needs every penny it gets in the plate. Churches have to be maintained. Rates have to be paid and rent if the building is rented (as they are in some places.) Lighting and heating have to be paid for. Candles, wine and hosts need to be paid for. Priests have to be kept as do the chapel houses, where again the buildings have to be maintained, lighted and heated and rates need to be paid. Cars need to be maintained for the long Mass runs. Anyone tempted not to put money in the plate should consider all this and realise how stupid it would be.
I do disagree with 'Caledonia'. Having principle is never "stupid". They should have kept this in mind when involving themselves with Dello Sarto and these other companies. I don't accept excuses. I find it hard to believe that Fr Sherry and other priests were not aware. What has he done since November 2010.
All we seem to be getting are excuses or palaver that nobody believes. Pull the other one is my reply to these clerics who attempt to fob off the faithful.
It always sickens me when people are quick to look for money and yet fob off people. I have principle and if the Society close ranks that is their problem but please don't expect money.
I sent 'Mater Dei' magazine back in the post. It sickens me an organisation would close ranks instead of trying to resolve a serious problem. They should admit they got it wrong.
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Relevant to the post from Caledonia. In ways the Scottish are the Jews of the North.Tight with money. That's the joke any ways.A bit of humour here from Fr Cekada.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9330
(Since he was a Scot, I will note that there was at least ONE matter he wanted settled in advance: Who was paying for the meal. Looking at the menu after Fr. Dolan had ordered the snails, he inquired, "Now you DID invite ME, didn;t you?")
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Positive to see this from 'Gabriel'.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9327
Should we stop putting money in the collection at SSPX Masses until it's known whether an agreement has been reached? I don't know what arrangements the individual Districts have about property, but people could always put aside the money they would have given, and either give it later if there's no agreement, or give it to whoever they are supporting if there is.
I didn't put in any today, in case it went off to Della Sarto or somewhere.
Would this help?
Every chapel needs every penny it gets in the plate. Churches have to be maintained. Rates have to be paid and rent if the building is rented (as they are in some places.) Lighting and heating have to be paid for. Candles, wine and hosts need to be paid for. Priests have to be kept as do the chapel houses, where again the buildings have to be maintained, lighted and heated and rates need to be paid. Cars need to be maintained for the long Mass runs. Anyone tempted not to put money in the plate should consider all this and realise how stupid it would be.
I do disagree with 'Caledonia'. Having principle is never "stupid". They should have kept this in mind when involving themselves with Dello Sarto and these other companies. I don't accept excuses. I find it hard to believe that Fr Sherry and other priests were not aware. What has he done since November 2010.
All we seem to be getting are excuses or palaver that nobody believes. Pull the other one is my reply to these clerics who attempt to fob off the faithful.
It always sickens me when people are quick to look for money and yet fob off people. I have principle and if the Society close ranks that is their problem but please don't expect money.
I sent 'Mater Dei' magazine back in the post. It sickens me an organisation would close ranks instead of trying to resolve a serious problem. They should admit they got it wrong.
I wasn't asked to but I retract my criticism of Fr Sherry. He is probably in the dark like everybody else. I just find it hard to believe the whole situation.
Perhaps money can be given but not beyond chapel level. I still believe priests should be supported but not those who sell out.
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Let him who hath hearing understand: This deal is done with Rome.
Fellay/Schmidberger/Menzingen will sign.
The other three bishops will not go along.
Hopefully only the Germans and a some French leave.
I will go wherever Williamson/de Gallereta/de Mallerais go.
What will be the name of the new order?
Well said.
Being a German native speaker myself, I'd like to add to your sentence: "Hopefully only the Germans and a some French leave."
As John already pointed out:
No surprises there from Fr Schmidberger. There will of course be priests like this and chapel attendee's who support him. [..]
Let us not forget that the elderly Fr. Maessen left Fr Pfluger ashen faced and was applauded by vast majority of clerics present. Fr Schmidberger like Bishop Fellay are following their own ambitions. They are happy to compromise.
[..]
Fr. Schmidberger has been intent upon making a deal for a long time. His influence in the matter is such that when the two bishops travelled last week to meet specifically with Bishop Fellay and his General Council they arrived only to find that Fr. Schmidberger was additionally there waiting for them. He is not part of Bishop Fellay's General Council.
The priests of the German District are in fact very much opposed to any deal being made. It is not the other way around.
Those pushing heavily for a deal in Germany are Fr's. Schmidberger and Frey with the close collaboration of Fr. Pfluger and The Crow.
Two meetings were held for the priests in Germany, just as in France, in order to attempt to sell a deal to them. Both meetings were addressed by Fr. Pfluger who spoke for several hours. On both occasions he met almost universal opposition amongst the priests. Every argument that Fr. Pfluger proposed for assimilation was utterly demolished in minutes by the heroic Fr. Maessen who just kept quoting Archbishop Lefebvre back to him.
It's indeed like John said. The district meeting of the German priests shortly before Albano showed a majority of German priests opposing Fr Pfluger's sellout speech by applauding to the heroic former district superior Fr Maeßen who wiped away Fr Pfluger's nonsense in a few minutes with the help of Archbishop Lefebvre. That's the short description of several priests I asked who attended that meeting.
But we've to consider two points at least :
1) Fr Schmidberger rules the FRG-German and Austrian-German district with an iron fist instead of a catholic one. His Prussian sabre-rattling is so that most middle aged and younger priests fear the man. (This says a lot about today's younger catholic generation which is too soft.)
2) The catholic SSPX is not democratic but hierarchical like the Church. So in the end those at the top will specify the course. As the saying knows: A fish rots from the head down. So we're at the Archbishop's favorite topic named catholic obedience versus blind obedience.
The devil's coup named Vaticanum II succeeded because of the catholics' wrong i.e. blind obedience. Sadly the same wrong principle happens now inside the SSPX despite the Archbishop's pathbreaking work. Probably we traditional catholics get our just deserts now.
To put it in a nutshell: When the going gets tough I'm afraid that most German, French and other European priests will feel obliged to follow their district superiors and the superior general despite the latter's liberal delusion. :-(
Maybe you south and north American and some Spanish traditional districts will manage to separate from the liberal SSPX leadership, but for most European districts I'm very pessimistic.
Heaven help us.
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Ethelred,
I have a bad forboding that the other Bishops and most Priests might go along with it reluctantly, where can they go? Would they all want to become itinererant Priests and Bishops overnight?
It is most likely that Bishop Fellay through Krah has all assets, properties, and trademarks under his sole control.
This will be putting those who refuse in the worst possible position, both canonically and financially. I do hope that he might consider the consequences of this action and the possible scandal, division, and disillusionment of so many who have sacrificed so much for so long to remain steadfast in the Faith.
Perhaps we all become indulters by the stroke of the pen.
Also, it may be we now see why the Archbishop ordained four men and not one.
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Ethelred,
I have a bad forboding that the other Bishops and most Priests might go along with it reluctantly, where can they go? Would they all want to become itinererant Priests and Bishops overnight?
It is most likely that Bishop Fellay through Krah has all assets, properties, and trademarks under his sole control.
This will be putting those who refuse in the worst possible position, both canonically and financially. I do hope that he might consider the consequences of this action and the possible scandal, division, and disillusionment of so many who have sacrificed so much for so long to remain steadfast in the Faith.
Perhaps we all become indulters by the stroke of the pen.
Also, it may be we now see why the Archbishop ordained four men and not one.
Don't worry. Think of MUM.
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MUM?
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I found this thread thought provoking.
I certainly find the way 'Marie Elisabeth' was counselled by the Society priest as being very manipulative. Perhaps not his intent but a very worrying mindset.
I met very few here in Ireland who were beguiled by these rosary crusades. These comments are great.
I have lost alot of respect for Fr Sherry as one day he was walking around after Mass with a nervous grin on his face. The faithful knew something was not right.
What did people think?
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Open-Invitation-Post-about-SSPX-Bp-Fellay-SSPX-priests-2
Open Invitation - Post about SSPX, Bp Fellay, SSPX priests
As recently as about 10 days ago Bishop Williamson believed that a statement made by BpF in mid-March opened the eyes of many as to what exactly was going on between BpF (and his cohorts) and Rome. I personally cannot place that mid-March statement of BpF.
Again, I personally doubt that even this eleventh hour realization by many that BpF wants to sell-out to Rome will not prevent the deed from going ahead. BpF has now made use of his key men - Schmidberger, Wailliez, Vernoy, Pfluger, Rosatnd ( and even Couture) - to justify the deal.
That there has been an eleventh hour realization is a fact. Some priests have told the faithful that they have been kept in the dark, while others are circulating the comments of BpF's "link" men.
Re: General Discussion » Open Invitation - Post about SSPX, Bp Fellay, SSPX priests
I read the joint letter of Mgr. Alfonso de Galarreta, Mgr. Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Mgr. Richard Williamson :
Lettre au Conseil Général de la Fraternité St Pie X, le 7 avril 2012
Yes it is real. It is a stiff letter. It predicts a profound division of the fraternity when Bp Fellay continues his fatal course. The 3 bishops are in battle mode now. They have to because Bp Fellay will pull off the Betrayal.
Stand by to repel boarders !
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As Oblationem said in the comment on YouTube and a clear statement that it is the people's own fault.
It’s our own fault by not protesting (at the time) what Bp. Fellay has said about Vatican II, and his Ideological persecution inside SSPX. We always thought he was working for our benefit, but the SSPX has metamorphosed into a vehicle of the New Order - just like the VII frog in the pot of water. If he can’t be voted out at the next Chapter, the SSPX is done for. Good priests, yes – but faulty leadership.
I'm not as sympathetic now to people as there were clear warning signs. The deal is going ahead. What we need to do is look to the fall out of it.
Faithful did not protest enough. I regarded these rosary crusades as smokescreens and distractions from day one. Some can see the wood from the trees.
opened the eyes of many
Far too late in many ways
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I don't know about other countries but here in Ireland, you have people who attend the SSPX but still watch EWTN or buy books from EWTN and think Cardinal Burke is brilliant because he is pro-life. I try to stay polite with these people.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9353
Where are these legions of people who are supposedly aching to go to the SSPX but do't due to qualms of conscience?
I don't think they really exist, except for the odd one or two, here or there. Does anyone know more than the odd isolated individual? Most people who consciously don't go to the SSPX do so for reasons which would still prevent them from going after an agrement. Unless, that is, the SSPX changes it's position, lets fall its opposition, and goes quiet on certain issues. But that would rather prove the point.
It was the Indult that brought me to the SSPX but I have never understood these people who have qualms with the SSPX. They just make excuses
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There are people who attend the SSPX from time to time.Novus Ordo types. Good people. In the past year or so there has been a few 'newbies' attending the SSPX.
In Ireland the attitude towards the Society has changed. It's only excuses as to why people stay away from the SSPX.
In some Irish Diocese's, the Traditional Mass is held four times each year. Some have an annual Traditional Mass. Some have a weekly or monthly.
There is no real interest in the Traditional Mass in Ireland.
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Certainly many of the sermons in Ireland have been preparing the way for a deal. Whilst you will have a few faithful "happy out" with a deal, the vast majority do oppose it.
Lettre au Conseil Général de la Fraternité St Pie X, le 7 avril 2012
Yes it is real. It is a stiff letter. It predicts a profound division of the fraternity when Bp Fellay continues his fatal course. The 3 bishops are in battle mode now. They have to because Bp Fellay will pull off the Betrayal.
Betrayal is a key word here.
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What happened to this one million following the Society had throughout the world? For some time this was well publicised and one had the idea things were going to take off. Then Bp. Fellay later talked about 600,000 at the most some years ago and a recent count I saw brought this down to 200,000, half of them in France. As I now have little to do with the Society, has there been a sharp drop in numbers over the years and could this be the reason why there is an urgent need to hold onto a core Rome-friendly population with this agreement?
Bp. Williamson once spoke of liberal tendencies inside German and French SSPX parishes and maybe he knew the way things were going. If the anti-conciliar movement loses one its main contributors, at least this business will shake out those who were serious about traditionalism and those who were not!
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profound division
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=9353
Yes. I don't think I know anyone personally who would start going to an SSPX Mass center just because of an agreement. And any of these theoretical people are not going because they do not understand the issues (i.e. the Faith). If people think there is division now, how much more division will there be when Novus Ordo-minded people start going, just because they're 'canonically regular.'
This is a valid point. There is nothing stopping Catholics attending a SSPX Mass centre now. I could see division arising if Hebrew Catholics or 'I Stand with Israel' types would start attending the Society chapels. They get good doses of our "ʝʊdɛօ-Christian" heritage in Novus Ordo land.
I know well intentioned Catholics who attend the Society from time to time. Often if a family have relatives over etc etc.
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Bp. Williamson once spoke of liberal tendencies inside German and French SSPX parishes and maybe he knew the way things were going.
You may recall the sermon available online of how he spoke of how the boys in France attend the Society school. How they wear the jeans and t shirt on the train to school and then change. Same for girls wearing dresses or chapel but trousers when at home.
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Bp. Williamson once spoke of liberal tendencies inside German and French SSPX parishes and maybe he knew the way things were going.
You may recall the sermon available online of how he spoke of how the boys in France attend the Society school. How they wear the jeans and t shirt on the train to school and then change. Same for girls wearing dresses or chapel but trousers when at home.
I should have written dresses at chapel. I just saw a photograph of a woman. My understanding is she teaches children who attend the SSPX. It doesn't show example to wear trousers. Women should not wear trousers.
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Bp. Williamson once spoke of liberal tendencies inside German and French SSPX parishes and maybe he knew the way things were going.
You may recall the sermon available online of how he spoke of how the boys in France attend the Society school. How they wear the jeans and t shirt on the train to school and then change. Same for girls wearing dresses or chapel but trousers when at home.
I should have written dresses at chapel. I just saw a photograph of a woman. My understanding is she teaches children who attend the SSPX. It doesn't show example to wear trousers. Women should not wear trousers.
I shall be seeking forgiveness for my detraction here and the trousers/dress debate is not the important issue of the day.
It's more important to oppose the sell out.
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What happened to this one million following the Society had throughout the world? For some time this was well publicised and one had the idea things were going to take off. Then Bp. Fellay later talked about 600,000 at the most some years ago and a recent count I saw brought this down to 200,000, half of them in France. As I now have little to do with the Society, has there been a sharp drop in numbers over the years and could this be the reason why there is an urgent need to hold onto a core Rome-friendly population with this agreement?
Salve Wessex. You're right. I always enjoy your interesting thinking.
For example Fr Schmidberger has got a map inside his head with flags indicating the places of "his" chapels. Those knowing his Prussian sabre-rattling probably know it corespondents to a Napoleon complex. And indeed the father has got a delusion of grandeur, meaning amongst other points that the map must grow desperately.
(That's one reason why he slave-drives his priests for decades. Which has always brought dramatic situations, for example a loss of good priests: one day they're burnout and collapse, or they go away, or both.)
But the map must grow! However since several years the "growth of traditional Catholicism" is declining, i.e. rien ne vas plus what's concerning the "let's build more chapels!" complex. In reality it's a worldwide phenomena of our time which is becoming more and more anti-christian until God's intervention.
However the father believes that a merger with Newrome would increased his flock immensely and so the number of chapels...
Does this sound too exaggerated for some readers? Unfortunately it's the reality. Just ask some good people who love Archbishop Lefebvre and know Fr Schmidberger well since decades.
When will we see the battle of Waterloo? Where's the English admiral?
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"let's build more chapels!"
Ireland had the opposite. When finance and chapels were made available to Fr Angles, he stated it was not time to expand. He didn't even want Society priests offering Holy Mass in the home of the elderly Mrs Deirdre Manifold. Deirdre had strong words and was a good match for the fiery Spaniard.
I realise the Society must be cautious as the Magnificat Meal Movement "infiltrated" them in Ireland. The MMM are a cult.
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"let's build more chapels!"
Ireland had the opposite. When finance and chapels were made available to Fr Angles, he stated it was not time to expand. He didn't even want Society priests offering Holy Mass in the home of the elderly Mrs Deirdre Manifold. Deirdre had strong words and was a good match for the fiery Spaniard.
I realise the Society must be cautious as the Magnificat Meal Movement "infiltrated" them in Ireland. The MMM are a cult.
I must clarify. Basically, there was Holy Mass in late 1990s/early 2000 in a private house.Not the home of Mrs Manifold. The MMM started recruiting but the SSPX stopped sending priests over to the house.
After this there was a regular Mass in the home of Mrs Manifold. It was usually Fr Bufe. He stopped coming as another priest was able to assist.
Mrs Manifold is now in a nursing home so there is no longer Mass offered in her home. She is 97 and attends the Traditional Mass. She goes to the Institute Christ the King organised Mass. She is not hostile to SSPX but her health is poor and her daughter brings her to nearest Traditional Mass.
To be honest whilst priests never lasted long in Ireland, the SSPX has been successful. Ok, they lost chapels and faithful but generally the apostolate is a healthy one. There have been Irish priests, several marriages, large families, home schooling, co-ops. Some chapels are more distributist than others. Ireland is a jewel in the crown in many ways.
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"let's build more chapels!"
Ireland had the opposite. When finance and chapels were made available to Fr Angles, he stated it was not time to expand. He didn't even want Society priests offering Holy Mass in the home of the elderly Mrs Deirdre Manifold. Deirdre had strong words and was a good match for the fiery Spaniard.
I realise the Society must be cautious as the Magnificat Meal Movement "infiltrated" them in Ireland. The MMM are a cult.
Infiltration, a timely and useful word, regarding our current crisis.
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"let's build more chapels!"
Ireland had the opposite. When finance and chapels were made available to Fr Angles, he stated it was not time to expand. He didn't even want Society priests offering Holy Mass in the home of the elderly Mrs Deirdre Manifold. Deirdre had strong words and was a good match for the fiery Spaniard.
I realise the Society must be cautious as the Magnificat Meal Movement "infiltrated" them in Ireland. The MMM are a cult.
Infiltration, a timely and useful word, regarding our current crisis.
Indeed. No doubt Mr Pryor is taking notes. He loves writing about the more "colourful characters" in Society circles.The "radicals" as he calls them.
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"let's build more chapels!"
Ireland had the opposite. When finance and chapels were made available to Fr Angles, he stated it was not time to expand. He didn't even want Society priests offering Holy Mass in the home of the elderly Mrs Deirdre Manifold. Deirdre had strong words and was a good match for the fiery Spaniard.
I realise the Society must be cautious as the Magnificat Meal Movement "infiltrated" them in Ireland. The MMM are a cult.
Infiltration, a timely and useful word, regarding our current crisis.
Indeed. No doubt Mr Pryor is taking notes. He loves writing about the more "colourful characters" in Society circles.The "radicals" as he calls them.
He is indeed monitoring this subject and no doubt reporting to his
handlers. He is however a bit player in the penetration of the Society. A useful collaborator.