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Author Topic: Cardinal Zen offers Mass, and war cry for the Church  (Read 1014 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Cardinal Zen offers Mass, and war cry for the Church
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2020, 07:04:18 AM »
Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on February 19, 2020, 11:31:11 PM
It is my hope that there is an ultra conservative underground church in China which A didn’t go along with communism and their “Catholic” church and B didn’t go along with V2.

This was true for some time.  Cardinal Kung and others who had been arrested and were in jail or house arrest, these never even heard about Vatican II ... for a long time.

http://www.cardinalkungfoundation.org/ck/CKlife.php

He was arrested in 1955 and jailed for 30 years.  It was only long after when he was released that he was exposed to the glories of the Novus Ordo.  He probably felt like Rip Van Winkle.  You go to jail in 1955 with the world Traditional Catholic and come out in 1985 to clown masses.  It must have been a tremendous shock to his system.  I often wonder what would happen of St. Pius X had been transported forward in time into the middle of a clown mass and was told, "this is a Catholic mass."  He probably would have died of horror.  Even in his worst nightmares, he probably could not have imagined this.  Heck, Martin Luther could not have imagined this even in HIS worst nightmares.
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Offline Stanley N

Re: Cardinal Zen offers Mass, and war cry for the Church
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2020, 08:55:06 AM »
Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on February 19, 2020, 11:31:11 PM
This is very interesting: are their bishops valid bishops? We’re they consecrated in the old rite by old rite bishops?
It is my hope that there is an ultra conservative underground church in China which A didn’t go along with communism and their “Catholic” church and B didn’t go along with V2.
The CPCA formed in the 1950s, so the bishops were certainly valid then. In fact, I think the penalty for consecrating a bishop without papal mandate was upgraded from suspension to excommunication due to the CPCA.
Bishops who opposed the CPCA were imprisoned for decades.
That said, the relation between the underground church and the CPCA is complicated. Some of the CPCA clergy are completely loyal to the CPCA, but others are not, and some clergy work in both. In one case, a CPCA priest was also a bishop in the underground church. In another more recent case, a bishop was consecrated with the approval of both the CPCA and Rome, and in his sermon during his own consecration, he announced he was resigning from the CPCA; this was a public insult to the govt and he was placed in "house arrest". Many CPCA bishops have reconciled with Rome with CPCA OK, but quietly.
Chinese Catholics have a tough choice. Go to the underground Church, which is loyal to Rome but now largely abandoned by Rome, where if caught they risk "re-education" or worse, or go to the Communist-led CPCA churches to be tracked and fed sermons that are at best bland and often propaganda.
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Offline CatholicInAmerica

Re: Cardinal Zen offers Mass, and war cry for the Church
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2020, 10:30:56 AM »
Quote from: Stanley N on February 20, 2020, 08:55:06 AM
The CPCA formed in the 1950s, so the bishops were certainly valid then. In fact, I think the penalty for consecrating a bishop without papal mandate was upgraded from suspension to excommunication due to the CPCA.
Bishops who opposed the CPCA were imprisoned for decades.
That said, the relation between the underground church and the CPCA is complicated. Some of the CPCA clergy are completely loyal to the CPCA, but others are not, and some clergy work in both. In one case, a CPCA priest was also a bishop in the underground church. In another more recent case, a bishop was consecrated with the approval of both the CPCA and Rome, and in his sermon during his own consecration, he announced he was resigning from the CPCA; this was a public insult to the govt and he was placed in "house arrest". Many CPCA bishops have reconciled with Rome with CPCA OK, but quietly.
Chinese Catholics have a tough choice. Go to the underground Church, which is loyal to Rome but now largely abandoned by Rome, where if caught they risk "re-education" or worse, or go to the Communist-led CPCA churches to be tracked and fed sermons that are at best bland and often propaganda.
Were said bishops consecrated in the old rite? Like the modern bishops in China 
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Offline Stanley N

Re: Cardinal Zen offers Mass, and war cry for the Church
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2020, 09:13:56 PM »
Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on February 20, 2020, 10:30:56 AM
Were said bishops consecrated in the old rite? Like the modern bishops in China
Honestly, I don't know. CPCA bishops would have been at least until the 1980s, when the CPCA made Mandarin translations for the Mass. I tried finding a video of a recent consecration (they are done publicly) but couldn't find a useful one to verify what they do. I would assume it's now essentially the N.O. in CPCA-approved Mandarin, but again, I don't know. Rome recognizes them as valid bishops.

The underground church would have adopted the N.O., but may have kept Latin in non-Mandarin speaking areas.

Many of the regional dialects do not really have written forms. What they do for liturgy is take Mandarin and pronounce it like the regional dialect, producing an artificial non-Mandarin dialect with Mandarin grammar. Latin was in some ways unifying.
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