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Author Topic: Either the pope is the standard of the faith or he is nothing  (Read 541 times)

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Offline Mr G

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Either the pope is the standard of the faith or he is nothing
« on: February 15, 2020, 07:55:42 AM »
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  • http://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2020/02/we-wont-be-satisfied-with-pope-spray-as.html

    We won't be satisfied with "pope-spray," as we wait for a "future pope or council." Either the pope is the standard of the faith or he is nothing.
    - February 14, 2020





     https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/4768-inspiration-or-calculation-why-did-bergoglio-duck-married-priests-and-lady-deacons
     
    "Here, however, we encounter the question whether the Holy Ghost has allowed the Church to be afflicted for a time by a de facto antipope whose election cannot be contested and whose papacy must be presumed valid until such time as a successor Pope or Council declares otherwise.  On that vexed issue, in my view, we can have nothing definitive to say, meaning nothing by which the Church as a whole could gain operative certitude and proceed accordingly. What is certain, however, is that this Pope must be opposed in his efforts to undermine the Faith."


    Dr. Chojnowski: The above quotation comes from Chris Ferrara's latest article on the Remnant website, "Inspiration or Calculation." Because I cannot stand to read the sophistic sameness of his articles, which are always directed to leading the faithful no where, I will only refer to the above paragraph, sent to me by a friend.


    The idea that Chris Ferrara thinks that he has "nothing definitive to say," is just laughable. Since when has he had nothing to say? He is always ready to tell us where the "hierarchy of the Catholic Church" is wrong and how and why we are to oppose them. I cannot help but believe that this is Chris' latest position of deceit. Not only are we daily barraged with that which gives us "operative certitude" about the apostasy we find everywhere, but we have shown in the last couple of blog posts that the Church actually encourages us to use our reason, not by making up our own dogmas or rules, not by pretending to assume a universal jurisdiction which God has clearly not given us, but by APPLYING THE TEACHINGS AND THE RULES THAT THE CHURCH HAS DEFINITIVELY AND PERENNIALLY GIVEN US, in order to decide where we stand, what ought we believe, who ought we be in communion with, and what and whom we ought to obey. You, Chris, decide every issue of the Remnant these questions for "The Remnant." It is YOU who decide what the status of Francis is and malign or dismiss all those who disagree with you about this issue. You act like this conclusion that you have given us, was somehow a defined doctrine or part of canon law --- it is not. It never was and it will never be. Identify one canon or encyclical in which we are told, we are facing a situation in which, "a de facto antipope whose election cannot be contested and whose papacy must be presumed valid until such time as a successor Pope or Council declares otherwise."

    So if we should follow the NORMAL attitude of a Roman Catholic, that we are to obey the pope in all matters of faith, morals, liturgy, devotion, Church law, etc., instead of the new view which would have us waiting for the next issue of the Remnant or Catholic Family News in order to know what we are to believe and do as Catholics in the moment, we would cease to read the Remnant or Catholic Family News. If a pope teaches that it is immoral not to recycle, then it is immoral not to recycle! How would we know that this future Catholic pope's judgment on his predecessor, would be any more infallible than were his predecessors decisions on matters of faith and morals, in Vatican II, etc. There is no infallibility when judging the legitimacy of a predecessors claim to the papacy, and yet, there is infallibility in the pope's exercise of his ordinary and extraordinary magisterium. So in order to check infallible acts  --- like canonizations  -- we must wait for non-infallible acts? Why in the world would we Catholics even have a living Magisterium or a highly exact and clearly articulated doctrine, entrusted not only to the hierarchy but to all of the faithful at baptism, if we could not apply that doctrine to the situations that we find ourselves in now? Isn't salvation, for a Catholic, dependent upon submission to the Roman Pontiff?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Either the pope is the standard of the faith or he is nothing
    « Reply #1 on: February 15, 2020, 08:06:46 AM »
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  • http://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2020/02/we-wont-be-satisfied-with-pope-spray-as.html

    There is no infallibility when judging the legitimacy of a predecessors claim to the papacy, and yet, there is infallibility in the pope's exercise of his ordinary and extraordinary magisterium. So in order to check infallible acts  --- like canonizations  -- we must wait for non-infallible acts?

    This is an excellent point here.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Either the pope is the standard of the faith or he is nothing
    « Reply #2 on: February 15, 2020, 08:46:41 AM »
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  • This is an excellent point here.
    Can you explain it?  I have read it a few times, and it still isn't making sense to me.

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Either the pope is the standard of the faith or he is nothing
    « Reply #3 on: February 17, 2020, 12:28:12 PM »
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  • Can you explain it?  I have read it a few times, and it still isn't making sense to me.
    He is referring to the many Traditionalist that say we must wait for a future Pope to determine if the recent Popes were true Popes, or if the new rites or Mass, ordinations and episcopal consecrations were valid, or if the new saints are truly to be considered saints, or if Vatican II was a legitimate council of the Church, etc. He then goes on to point out that the problem with waiting for the future Pope, is that the future Pope will be making non-infallible judgments on his predecessor's more authoritative actions. 


    "How would we know that this future Catholic pope's judgment on his predecessor, would be any more infallible than were his predecessors decisions on matters of faith and morals, in Vatican II, etc. There is no infallibility when judging the legitimacy of a predecessors claim to the papacy, and yet, there is infallibility in the pope's exercise of his ordinary and extraordinary magisterium. So in order to check infallible acts  --- like canonizations  -- we must wait for non-infallible acts?" 

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Either the pope is the standard of the faith or he is nothing
    « Reply #4 on: February 17, 2020, 12:59:32 PM »
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  • Right, any papal claim which can be reasonably disputed (I.e. it is not a dogmatic fact) can never be infallibly determined because it wouldn’t be divine revelation.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Either the pope is the standard of the faith or he is nothing
    « Reply #5 on: February 17, 2020, 01:14:39 PM »
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  • Quote
    "a de facto antipope whose election cannot be contested and whose papacy must be presumed valid until such time as a successor Pope or Council declares otherwise."

    Chris Ferrara makes the same mistake that XavierSem does - they exaggerate the "universal acceptance" dogma to mean that a validly elected pope REMAINS valid until he dies (or retires).  The issue of a valid election is completely separate from the issue of if a pope is a heretic.  So, a pope can be validly elected and be dogmatically "universally accepted" day 1, but could become a heretic and could be declared so by the Cardinals on day 2.  The former does not prevent the latter.
    .
    If Ferrara truly believes that +Francis is an anti-pope (or, to be more precise, if he thinks he is a formal, obstinate heretic) then he should be doing all in his power (and he has much influence) to get the Cardinals to declare +Francis as such, as then he could be removed from office.  For Ferrara to act like there's nothing that can be done, is to completely ignore/contradict the "dubia" letter and all of Cardinal Burke's theological arguments (most of which come from St Bellarmine).  Considering that Ferrara is a new-rome fan-boy, his attitude makes no sense....unless he is controlled opposition to hurt Burke's dubia letter campaign.  The Vatican's mob guys may have "convinced" him to push on the faithful the sheeple-attitude of waiting in vain.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Either the pope is the standard of the faith or he is nothing
    « Reply #6 on: February 17, 2020, 01:24:02 PM »
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  • He is referring to the many Traditionalist that say we must wait for a future Pope to determine if the recent Popes were true Popes, or if the new rites or Mass, ordinations and episcopal consecrations were valid, or if the new saints are truly to be considered saints, or if Vatican II was a legitimate council of the Church, etc. He then goes on to point out that the problem with waiting for the future Pope, is that the future Pope will be making non-infallible judgments on his predecessor's more authoritative actions.
    It is not expedient that we *need* a future pope to determine if the recent popes were true popes. It'll happen when it happens.

    We already are certain that the new rite (Novus Ordo) is to be avoided and at some point will be condemned for what it is.
    We already know to avoid those ordained in the NO - even if NO ordinations are always valid, the clergy and hierarchy, like *all* things that have anything to do with the NO, are modernists who teach and promote error, which is why we wholly avoid it and them. 

     



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: Either the pope is the standard of the faith or he is nothing
    « Reply #7 on: February 17, 2020, 04:16:00 PM »
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  • This whole tread is nothing but dogmatizing opinion. Worthless.

    Who made Dr. Chojnowski pope?


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Either the pope is the standard of the faith or he is nothing
    « Reply #8 on: February 17, 2020, 08:19:26 PM »
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  • Jesus Christ now and forever. 
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Either the pope is the standard of the faith or he is nothing
    « Reply #9 on: February 18, 2020, 09:30:03 AM »
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  • This whole tread is nothing but dogmatizing opinion. Worthless.

    Who made Dr. Chojnowski pope?
    Your baseless and nonsensical accusations are worthless.

    Offline donkath

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    Re: Either the pope is the standard of the faith or he is nothing
    « Reply #10 on: February 18, 2020, 08:42:17 PM »
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  • "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."