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I really don't know much about Fr. Gruner, except that he's a traditional priest of some sort and that he's very devoted to Our Lady of Fatima. Can you all tell me more about him? Should I listen to what he says? Is he a good traditional priest?
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Fr. Gruner is a very holy, mild-mannered, patient Catholic priest who has worked tirelessly to spread the Fatima warnings. He is rather notable for not ending up letting his visibility go to his head,IMO.
He was way ahead of his time exposing important issues of the day in his old radio show. I think his old radio interviews are still available to listen to for free at his apostolate's website, fatima.org
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Well, who could doubt a Fatima priest?
There is one problem I have noticed with his apostolate. Tell me if you agree?
Around the Summer of 2009, Father Gruner attended the SSPX Winona ordinations.
A friend of mine was there and overheard his conversation concerning the "Two Sister Lucys" conspiracy.
As you know, the whole thing is so pathetically "ʝʊdɛօ-masonic".
But, Our Lady of Fatima did warn us of the diabolical confusion we would be subjected to... didn't she?
Father admitted of being aware of this story. Whether he agreed with it, I do not know? However, the physical evidence is overwhelming that a switch of the original Fatima Nun had been made.
In any case, Father Gruner said in this conversation, that he did not want to bring-up the "Two Sister Lucys" in his publications.
Why? Because it would upset his Novus ordo contributors.
So our Lord tells us, "... the Truth will set you free".
But in Father Gruner's case, the truth will impact your donations.
Personally, his apostolate is hugely important, but his logic is not right.
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Second criticism:
I think his organization is infiltrated with people who want to damage his apostolate.
Why do I say this?
I've been on his mailing list for over ten years and used to be a monthly donor.
During this time, I noticed "irregularities" in how I did and did not receive his publications and solicitations for donations.
It was as if there are saboteurs within his group that was attempting to disrupt his operation.
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I visited him in Canada and two assistants attended Novus Ordo regularly and even on Sundays. One told me over dinner that Fr. G gave conferences around the usa and was asked once, "What do we do about First Saturdays." The assistant told me that he tells the audiences to attend the Novus Ordo for their First Saturdays. I questioned him about that to receive the curt response and a motion of his hand , "Just leave that to the SSPX . . . that is not our battle."
I had received a letter which asked for donations as he had had to lay people off. So drove to the Fatima Center. During a lunch break at the large table outside, I remarked that it was a shame that he had to lay people off bc of problems with money. They all laughed and said "That's not the reason . . . we just ran out of work for them."
I wanted to follow up with Fr. Kramer but left Canada and returned home.
I was sickened over the whole matter.
Tantum Aude!
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Fr. Gruner does a good job of promoting Fatima, he is to be commended for that.
As far as his view on the two Sister Lucias, I don't think he believes there were two. I've seen him quote the "Sister Lucia" of the 1960s (and after that too, I think, though I may be mistaken).
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Third criticism:
Father Gruner expressed intentions of attending both the SSPX-SO priest's Retreat and Family Conference in Boston, KY last December.
In both cases, he said he was coming, but was a "no-show".
Of course, he had good excuses, something about trouble with making his transportation departures on time.
Now let's see:
Would photos of Fr. Gruner at these SSPX Resistance events upset Bp. Fellay?
Of course.
Would photos of Fr. Gruner with the SSPX Resistance upset his Novus ordo contributors? Probably.
So, where does Fr. Gruner land?
Does he just float above this battle for the traditional Catholic Faith like an angel, sprinkling his Fatima publications on all of us?
Or, does he stand up for the Truth and fight by our sides?
We'll know who's side Father Gruner is on if he shows-up at the Winona ordinations this summer.
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Will showing up make any money?
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Will showing up make any money?
I would have given him at least five bucks...
when my wife wasn't looking! :thinking:
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Second criticism:
I think his organization is infiltrated with people who want to damage his apostolate.
Why do I say this?
I've been on his mailing list for over ten years and used to be a monthly donor.
During this time, I noticed "irregularities" in how I did and did not receive his publications and solicitations for donations.
It was as if there are saboteurs within his group that was attempting to disrupt his operation.
I think seeing the hand of saboteurs in this is a bit grandiose. It simply requires inept or overworked volunteers, or perhaps an overworked Father Gruner himself.
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Second criticism:
I think his organization is infiltrated with people who want to damage his apostolate.
Why do I say this?
I've been on his mailing list for over ten years and used to be a monthly donor.
During this time, I noticed "irregularities" in how I did and did not receive his publications and solicitations for donations.
It was as if there are saboteurs within his group that was attempting to disrupt his operation.
I think seeing the hand of saboteurs in this is a bit grandiose. It simply requires inept or overworked volunteers, or perhaps an overworked Father Gruner himself.
Well, come on now. These "irregularities" went on for over ten years.
For example, if I was one of your monthly financial supporters, do you think
you'd send me the Fatima Crusader one in a while ?
Never got one.
Infiltration is a given. Even Fr. Gruner admitted the warning of a satanic apparition on the day he started the apostolate. (Ref: Fatima priest)
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I recall us, as a family, watching his show on TV in the 80s where Fr. Gruner always repeating the message of praying that "the Holy Father would consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary". He seemed to repeat this mantra at least a dozen times every episode - not that that's a bad thing.
Then something happened, I am not sure exactly what that was, but it seems a controversy arose because it became known that JP2 consecrated Russia - from that point on, Fr. Gruner's mantra went from "the Holy Father needs consecrate Russia" to "the pope did the consecration improperly" to "the Holy Father needs consecrate Russia together with all the bishops" to "the Holy Father needs consecrate Russia together with all the bishops of the world together all at the exact same time" - in effect, seemingly at least, making the act of consecration all but impossible to be performed properly.
I've not followed him for the last +20 years because of that - it could be that he found out the consecration was not properly done and also what was really necessary in order for it to be properly done, I don't know - but IMO, the whole thing seemed like - and still does to me - some kind of ploy to keep his Fatima organization alive. I also cannot help but wonder why one of the books he sells: "The Third Secret" was like as thick as a phone book - I mean, seems like the actual secret should only be a few paragraphs long.......a pamphlet should be able to tell the third secret and have a page or two for explanations - again, IMO.
Now I understand there is another book relatively new they put out called "The Fourth Secret of Fatima" - whether Fr. Gruner is associated with it or not I don't know, but for me as one who stopped paying a lot of attention to him a long time ago because every time you turned around there was some new development from Fatima, I cannot help but think that there is plenty of money involved and therefore plenty of money to be lost should his Fatima network dry up and IMO, these regular new developments are one way to keep the money machine alive - if in fact that is what he is actually doing.
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John Paul II didn't even mention Russia; he only consecrated the world, only mentioning Russia as still needing to be consecrated according to Our Lady's requests.
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From the sound of what you all are saying, Fr. Gruner seems very commited to Fatima, but he's undecided on his stance on the crisis in the Church. What an odd fellow.
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No, Alex. Fr. Gruner is not an odd fellow. He is a gentle fellow. He is a very good Catholic priest, and I am sorry you listened to people trying to sully his good name.
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No, Alex. Fr. Gruner is not an odd fellow. He is a gentle fellow. He is a very good Catholic priest, and I am sorry you listened to people trying to sully his good name.
As I said, I've not followed him for over 20 years but I would like to know where it is he places his allegiance. Does he still say the NO as he did back in the 80s? In those days, he only celebrated the TLM on occasion so I ask only out of curiosity.
Has he ever explained what the the people of Russia will be converted too?
I mean that right now, the Church is under modernist control - has he ever explained how the Russian people will be converted to the true faith and not the NO faith?
I ask because since the modernist NO is the error of Russia, it makes zero sense to have a modernist pope and all modernist bishops consecrate the people of Russia for their conversion to the NO.
I am not trying to be facetious but to my limited knowledge about him, he still awaits for the pope, who sees no reason for the conversion of anyone let alone the people of Russia, along with all the bishops of the world, who are arguably the boldest of all anti-Catholic conspirators, to consecrate Russia to the IHM for their conversion - seems insane to me because to what are the people of Russia going to convert to these days? - The NO?
The Church and faith are unrecognizable these days compared to when the consecration was supposed to have been done so I am assuming that he has an answer to this dilemma.
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Seems to me you don't trust the messenger of God, Sr. Lucy, and the results of the consecration to Our Lady by the bishops of Portugal in the 1930s and 1940s, saving their country from World War II and the Masonic menace.
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Seems to me you don't trust the messenger of God, Sr. Lucy, and the results of the consecration to Our Lady by the bishops of Portugal in the 1930s and 1940s, saving their country from World War II and the Masonic menace.
Seems to me you don't follow Fr. Gruner either or if you do, you just showed he has yet to explain some of the concerns I asked about above.
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Seems to me you don't trust the messenger of God, Sr. Lucy, and the results of the consecration to Our Lady by the bishops of Portugal in the 1930s and 1940s, saving their country from World War II and the Masonic menace.
Seems to me you don't follow Fr. Gruner either or if you do, you just showed he has yet to explain some of the concerns I asked about above.
I follow him mostly, though I do disagree on some minor points. And those concerns, big as they are, are secondary to the main issue of the Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Or do we know better than Our Lady?
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Seems to me you don't trust the messenger of God, Sr. Lucy, and the results of the consecration to Our Lady by the bishops of Portugal in the 1930s and 1940s, saving their country from World War II and the Masonic menace.
Seems to me you don't follow Fr. Gruner either or if you do, you just showed he has yet to explain some of the concerns I asked about above.
I follow him mostly, though I do disagree on some minor points. And those concerns, big as they are, are secondary to the main issue of the Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Or do we know better than Our Lady?
No we do not know better than Our Lady but since he is the expert, he should have already addressed the obvious as often as he repeats the need for the consecration - which is why I asked if he has ever addressed those concerns. To my limited knowledge about him, he has never addressed them.
They are legitimate questions and it strikes me as being odd that trads who otherwise question, accuse or condemn the NO Church, simply accept without questioning his teachings about Fatima as though they are beyond question.
Personally, I do not know enough about him to offer my opinion as regards the OP. +20 years ago I, like the OP, knew him to be a "trad priest of some sort" who preached Fatima - that's about it.
Who is his bishop? Where or what diocese, if any, does he call home? Does he still say the NO service? These and the questions I asked in my other post are legitimate questions which the 20 odd posts in this thread have not answered - which speaking for myself, makes me think that no one knows or no one cares - all they care about is that the NO pope and all the NO bishops consecrate the people of Russia to the IMH so that the people of Russia will be converted so that there will be peace..................................I ask again, converted to what? - the NO?
Will the consecration make the people of Russia more Catholic than the NO consecrators? If not then the whole idea is absurd, and if so, then the Fatima expert should have called attention as to how this might occur by the act itself - or at the very least make mention of it or acknowledge it for what it is.
It's not my intention to slander Fr., but he is not above question and IMO, whoever has followed him should be able to answer or give a quote or link to how Fr. answers at least some of these concerns.
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When I drove to Canada, I found both Fr Gruner and Fr. Kramer (good guy) saying the Latin Mass. I served Fr. Kramer's Latin Mass. At the second "Domine, non sum dignus . . . ", Sr. Francis urged me to say the "Domine, no sum dignus . . ." as I had done in the 40's and 50's.
The matter that caused me grave concern was his assistant told me that Fr. Gruner told the audience during his travels to go to the NO for their First Saturdays. I then approached Fr. Gruner about this matter. He gave me a harsh look, waved his hand as if leave me alone on this question and then said, "Leave that battle to the SSPX."
I went there to offer help as I had just received a letter from him stating that he had had to lay workers of because of money problems.
At the large picnic table during a worker break, I remarked that it was a shame that Fr. Gruner had had to lay a bunch of people off bc of money problems to which they (about 15 "paid" workers) laughed and said, "Oh, it wasn't
bc of money . . . we just didnt have any work for them."
Lies to the mailing list . . . and I am sure the NO devotees responded with more cash. People donate vehicles to his "apostolate" etc.
I was so sickened over the entire situation that I prayed and then left Canada to drive home.
Sumpin fishy there.
Tantum Aude.
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I was so sickened over the entire situation that I prayed and then left Canada to drive home.
Sumpin fishy there.
I feel your pain and it is not a good testimony for Fr. Gruner.
As for something being fishy, that pretty much sums up how it's been almost since he appeared on the scene.
I mean it is one thing to promote devotion to Our Lady of Fatima - that is a wonderful thing, but as for the rest of his conclusions - who knows?
I tried looking for a pre-1975 era book on Fatima to see if a comparison to Fr. Gruner could be made and came up empty, but I did find these videos (http://www.fatimamovement.com/024_FatimaMedia.htm) interesting (scroll down to the 6th, 7th and 8th clips). I did not know that the closing scene of the move "The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima" from 1952 was actual footage from 1951 and that +Fulton Sheen was present at that filming.
At any rate, +Sheen never once mentioned the Consecration of Russia yet what +Sheen states as necessary makes all the sense in the world compared to what Fr. Gruner says - IMO.
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Who is his bishop? Where or what diocese, if any, does he call home?
I think some years ago he said that the Bishop of Hyderabad in India had incardinated him into his diocese. I don't know his current status. That must have been an incardination of convenience I reckon.
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Who is his bishop? Where or what diocese, if any, does he call home?
I think some years ago he said that the Bishop of Hyderabad in India had incardinated him into his diocese. I don't know his current status. That must have been an incardination of convenience I reckon.
This was my understanding as well. He's also done this for local traditional priests in southern California; he made one of them, Fr. Patrick Perez (now Mgr.) a Monseigneur. What I've never understood was whether there was an actual need for this. A practical one, I can see. However, if you were practicing on the principle of supplied jurisdictional why seek / offer incardination? Don't get me going on the Monseigneurship.
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Who is his bishop? Where or what diocese, if any, does he call home?
I think some years ago he said that the Bishop of Hyderabad in India had incardinated him into his diocese. I don't know his current status. That must have been an incardination of convenience I reckon.
This was my understanding as well. He's also done this for local traditional priests in southern California; he made one of them, Fr. Patrick Perez (now Mgr.) a Monseigneur. What I've never understood was whether there was an actual need for this. A practical one, I can see. However, if you were practicing on the principle of supplied jurisdictional why seek / offer incardination? Don't get me going on the Monseigneurship.
I too heard of Fr Perez being made a Monsignor by an Indian bishop. I dont see the point of it. Priests who used to be made Monsignor usually never made it beyond that to Bishop. I think it's just a title conferred on some senior priests in a diocese in recognition of meritorious service; but I thought all such titles had to be cleared by Rome (?). I dont see where Fr Perez fits in an Indian diocese. I also cannot understand how an Indian bishop incardinated Fr Gruner who is not in good standing with the Conciliar authorities. Some Indian dioceses get bucks from overseas so why would that bishop jeopardize this?
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Fr. Gruner knows very well the crisis in the church and his Fatima Crusaders reflect that very well. The Crusaders can be read online:
Fatima Crusader (http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr92/toc92.asp)
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I recall us, as a family, watching his show on TV in the 80s where Fr. Gruner always repeating the message of praying that "the Holy Father would consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary". He seemed to repeat this mantra at least a dozen times every episode - not that that's a bad thing.
Then something happened, I am not sure exactly what that was, but it seems a controversy arose because it became known that JP2 consecrated Russia - from that point on, Fr. Gruner's mantra went from "the Holy Father needs consecrate Russia" to "the pope did the consecration improperly" to "the Holy Father needs consecrate Russia together with all the bishops" to "the Holy Father needs consecrate Russia together with all the bishops of the world together all at the exact same time" - in effect, seemingly at least, making the act of consecration all but impossible to be performed properly.
I've not followed him for the last +20 years because of that - it could be that he found out the consecration was not properly done and also what was really necessary in order for it to be properly done, I don't know - but IMO, the whole thing seemed like - and still does to me - some kind of ploy to keep his Fatima organization alive. I also cannot help but wonder why one of the books he sells: "The Third Secret" was like as thick as a phone book - I mean, seems like the actual secret should only be a few paragraphs long.......a pamphlet should be able to tell the third secret and have a page or two for explanations - again, IMO.
Now I understand there is another book relatively new they put out called "The Fourth Secret of Fatima" - whether Fr. Gruner is associated with it or not I don't know, but for me as one who stopped paying a lot of attention to him a long time ago because every time you turned around there was some new development from Fatima, I cannot help but think that there is plenty of money involved and therefore plenty of money to be lost should his Fatima network dry up and IMO, these regular new developments are one way to keep the money machine alive - if in fact that is what he is actually doing.
If you want to know everything about Fatima (you will know more than 99% of those who say they know about it), read the three volume set by Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite. See link:
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-author=Frere%20Michel%20de%20la%20Sainte%20Trinite&page=1&rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3AFrere%20Michel%20de%20la%20Sainte%20Trinite]
The three volumes are:
The Whole Truth About Fatima: Science and the Facts
The Whole Truth about Fatima, Volume II: The Secret and the Church
The Whole Truth About Fatima, Vol. 3, The Third Secret (1942-1960)
You will not regret reading all three. They are among my most prized books.
You will not be able to put them down. Not one second is wasted in "feelings", "flowers", and "syrupy spirituality". Everything is objective and to the point. Historical facts, science, Catholic doctrine.
Bottomline is that Russia has not been consecrated as instructed by Our Blessed Mother to Lucia. Russia must be consecrated by the pope in union with all of the bishops. The day it is properly consecrated everyone will know it because there will be a mass in every diocese with your local bishop doing the consecration too. Or less likely, it will be done when all of the Bishops are gathered at Rome.
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When this thread first started it didn't look so bad.......
I really don't know much about Fr. Gruner, except that he's a traditional priest of some sort and that he's very devoted to Our Lady of Fatima. Can you all tell me more about him? Should I listen to what he says? Is he a good traditional priest?
And then I saw how Elizabeth was dealing with it so I figured it would be okay......
Fr. Gruner is a very holy, mild-mannered, patient Catholic priest who has worked tirelessly to spread the Fatima warnings. He is rather notable for not ending up letting his visibility go to his head,IMO.
He was way ahead of his time exposing important issues of the day in his old radio show. I think his old radio interviews are still available to listen to for free at his apostolate's website, fatima.org
And then I noticed on the Index page that Incredulous had answered, so I
presumed everything was hunky dory..
..but I failed to read Icred's post.......
Well, who could doubt a Fatima priest?
There is one problem I have noticed with his apostolate. Tell me if you agree?
Around the Summer of 2009, Father Gruner attended the SSPX Winona ordinations.
A friend of mine was there and overheard his conversation concerning the "Two Sister Lucys" conspiracy.
As you know, the whole thing is so pathetically "ʝʊdɛօ-masonic".
But, Our Lady of Fatima did warn us of the diabolical confusion we would be subjected to... didn't she?
Father admitted of being aware of this story. Whether he agreed with it, I do not know? However, the physical evidence is overwhelming that a switch of the original Fatima Nun had been made.
In any case, Father Gruner said in this conversation, that he did not want to bring-up the "Two Sister Lucys" in his publications.
Why? Because it would upset his Novus ordo contributors.
So our Lord tells us, "... the Truth will set you free".
But in Father Gruner's case, the truth will impact your donations.
Personally, his apostolate is hugely important, but his logic is not right.
Now I see that was my first mistake. Perhaps you are unaware that Fr. Gruner
has personally let pilgrimages to Fatima more times than most people have
been to Starbucks. He had tried on NUMEROUS occasions to have a personal
interview with Sister Lucia of the Immaculate Conception, otherwise known
as Sr. Lucy of Fatima, but was denied access. One time, when it was most
promising, he had an appointment, and showed up early just to be sure, and
the nun at the front door told him that the appointment had been canceled
because Sr. Lucia was infirm that day. So Fr. Gruner patiently waited in the
area, in hopes that something might improve, only to learn that another visitor
came about an hour later, after the time of his own appointment, and was
able to enter to have a meeting with Sister Lucia; therefore, he reasoned
that she must have suddenly regained her health, so he returned to the
front door and was told that no, she was still sick.
On another time when Fr. Gruner was unable to see Sr. Lucy, some rag-tag
busy body (my own assessment) was able to get in to see her without any
restrictions, an had an interview with her during which he claimed to "hold
her hands," and he was merely a layman whom she had never met before.
Does this make sense to you? This mere layman used that "interview"
to basically contradict everything that Sr. Lucia had been saying about Fatima
all the years before then, and he made up a small booklet to announce the
new sister lucy and her story.
Now, if this were any mere mortal, like you or me, I highly doubt it would
have been tough for us to conclude that there was now an imposter sister
lucy in place of the original Sr. Lucia. But not Fr. Gruner.
It seems to me that he found the strength to rise above the obvious and
offer it up as a penance to Our Lady, and being the most prominent Fatima
Priest in the world, literally, I highly doubt that Our Lady would have allowed
Fr. Gruner to fall into that temptation that comes so easily to us on the
outside who know practically nothing about Fatima compared to Fr. Gruner.
Second criticism:
I think his organization is infiltrated with people who want to damage his apostolate.
Why do I say this?
I've been on his mailing list for over ten years and used to be a monthly donor.
During this time, I noticed "irregularities" in how I did and did not receive his publications and solicitations for donations.
It was as if there are saboteurs within his group that was attempting to disrupt his operation.
If you have that concern, Incredulous, perhaps you ought to make it a point
to meet him personally and tell him about it. Do not send him a letter, because
it would not add up: you fear he has subversives, so why would there not be
some opening his mail or e-mail? He's a busy priest.
I visited him in Canada and two assistants attended Novus Ordo regularly and even on Sundays. One told me over dinner that Fr. G gave conferences around the usa and was asked once, "What do we do about First Saturdays." The assistant told me that he tells the audiences to attend the Novus Ordo for their First Saturdays. I questioned him about that to receive the curt response and a motion of his hand , "Just leave that to the SSPX . . . that is not our battle."
I had received a letter which asked for donations as he had had to lay people off. So drove to the Fatima Center. During a lunch break at the large table outside, I remarked that it was a shame that he had to lay people off bc of problems with money. They all laughed and said "That's not the reason . . . we just ran out of work for them."
I wanted to follow up with Fr. Kramer but left Canada and returned home.
I was sickened over the whole matter.
Tantum Aude!
Another backbiting critic. Why don't you take this up with Fr. Gruner in person?
Are you not man enough? Obviously you prefer to spread rumors on the
Internet rather than go to the source. Shame on you!
Fr. Gruner does a good job of promoting Fatima, he is to be commended for that.
As far as his view on the two Sister Lucias, I don't think he believes there were two. I've seen him quote the "Sister Lucia" of the 1960s (and after that too, I think, though I may be mistaken).
Fr. Gruner is obviously aware of the "two sister lucys rumor" but it seems to
me that he has not judged this a prudent tack to take - because there is no
going back. Once he comes out saying there were two, then he cannot so
easily come back later and say there was only one and that someone tricked
him or whatever, like +Fellay has tried to do. One loses credibility that way,
and it seems overall that perhaps someone in the Vatican was trying to set
things up so as to trip him up and make him take that step, in order to
destroy Fr. Gruner's apostolate. This is just me talking, not Fr. Gruner.
So go ahead and accuse me of spreading a rumor. Hint: I can't wait!
Third criticism:
Father Gruner expressed intentions of attending both the SSPX-SO priest's Retreat and Family Conference in Boston, KY last December.
In both cases, he said he was coming, but was a "no-show".
Of course, he had good excuses, something about trouble with making his transportation departures on time.
Now let's see:
Would photos of Fr. Gruner at these SSPX Resistance events upset Bp. Fellay?
Of course.
Would photos of Fr. Gruner with the SSPX Resistance upset his Novus ordo contributors? Probably.
So, where does Fr. Gruner land?
Does he just float above this battle for the traditional Catholic Faith like an angel, sprinkling his Fatima publications on all of us?
Or, does he stand up for the Truth and fight by our sides?
We'll know who's side Father Gruner is on if he shows-up at the Winona ordinations this summer.
I think you're getting a little harsh, Incred. I had hoped for better from you.
This is a priest of the Faith we share, and you're talking like this?
I have been present when Fr. Gruner has said Mass using an original Missal
from 1571. Have you ever heard of a priest doing that? He had to have a
sheet with a couple of prayers on it that have been added since then but
everything in the old Missal was otherwise identical to our pre-1954 missals.
Now, why don't you criticize Fr. Gruner for not standing up to the SSPX over
their use of the 1962 Missal of John XXIII? Or, are you uncomfortable with
that? But you're not uncomfortable with accusing him of not taking up your
own pet agendas that he might not be comfortable with? But isn't not being
comfortable with a certain thing reason enough not to come out against it?
BTW showing up at SSPX ordinations in the past was reason to be on the local
bishop's hit list. Are you aware that Fr. Gruner has been personally attacked
by the bishop in his local diocese over his not obtaining permission from him
to run a worldwide Fatima apostolate?
Second criticism:
I think his organization is infiltrated with people who want to damage his apostolate.
Why do I say this?
I've been on his mailing list for over ten years and used to be a monthly donor.
During this time, I noticed "irregularities" in how I did and did not receive his publications and solicitations for donations.
It was as if there are saboteurs within his group that was attempting to disrupt his operation.
I think seeing the hand of saboteurs in this is a bit grandiose. It simply requires inept or overworked volunteers, or perhaps an overworked Father Gruner himself.
Do you treat other businesses this way? When there's a problem in a
restaurant, you're wasting your time if you don't ask to see the manager. So
have you asked to speak with Fr. Gruner?
Or, do you prefer to sully his name with grandiose fantasy? Maybe you are
one of the saboteurs! (Not Sigismund!)
Second criticism:
I think his organization is infiltrated with people who want to damage his apostolate.
Why do I say this?
I've been on his mailing list for over ten years and used to be a monthly donor.
During this time, I noticed "irregularities" in how I did and did not receive his publications and solicitations for donations.
It was as if there are saboteurs within his group that was attempting to disrupt his operation.
I think seeing the hand of saboteurs in this is a bit grandiose. It simply requires inept or overworked volunteers, or perhaps an overworked Father Gruner himself.
Well, come on now. These "irregularities" went on for over ten years.
For example, if I was one of your monthly financial supporters, do you think
you'd send me the Fatima Crusader one in a while ?
Never got one.
Infiltration is a given. Even Fr. Gruner admitted the warning of a satanic apparition on the day he started the apostolate. (Ref: Fatima priest)
Have you ever spoken to Fr. Gruner about this? You keep seeming to enjoy
talking with disrespect of his apostolate behind his back. Is that Catholic?
I recall us, as a family, watching his show on TV in the 80s where Fr. Gruner always repeating the message of praying that "the Holy Father would consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary". He seemed to repeat this mantra at least a dozen times every episode - not that that's a bad thing.
Then something happened, I am not sure exactly what that was, but it seems a controversy arose because it became known that JP2 consecrated Russia
It seems you mean to say that it became popular all of a sudden to say
that JPII had consecrated Russia, but that was incorrect. He had not mentioned
Russia, and at the time it became obvious to Fr. that his PSA had been
lacking, that he had been trying to "Keep It Simple Stupid," and in the
process had left open a weakness, one which the devil took full advantage of,
and now, he was going to have to up the ante - and add some footnotes
to the topic, which, of course, the minions of hecklers jumped all over.
- from that point on, Fr. Gruner's mantra went from "the Holy Father needs consecrate Russia" to "the pope did the consecration improperly" to "the Holy Father needs [to] consecrate Russia together with all the bishops" to "the Holy Father needs [to] consecrate Russia together with all the bishops of the world together all at the exact same time" - in effect, seemingly at least, making the act of consecration all but impossible to be performed properly.
This isn't fair. While it's true he did take the message up in steps, so as to
give the impression that the Message of Fatima was "changing," he did go to
some pains to explain along the way what was going on. The Message is and
always was the same, but just as people in 1917 to 1929 hardly knew much
of the details of what went on in 1917, because, mostly, it was just too much
for them to handle, so too, Fr. Gruner was discrete in not putting out too much
too soon, so as to make people (like you) think that it would be "impossible"
to ever pull of the Collegial Consecration. Well, it could have been done just
fine at Vat.II, with all the bishops gathered there at one time, you know. ETC.
I've not followed him for the last +20 years because of that - it could be that he found out the consecration was not properly done and also what was really necessary in order for it to be properly done, I don't know - but IMO, the whole thing seemed like - and still does to me - some kind of ploy to keep his Fatima organization alive. I also cannot help but wonder why one of the books he sells: "The Third Secret" was like as thick as a phone book - I mean, seems like the actual secret should only be a few paragraphs long.......a pamphlet should be able to tell the third secret and have a page or two for explanations - again, IMO.
Now I understand there is another book relatively new they put out called "The Fourth Secret of Fatima" - whether Fr. Gruner is associated with it or not I don't know, but for me as one who stopped paying a lot of attention to him a long time ago because every time you turned around there was some new development from Fatima, I cannot help but think that there is plenty of money involved and therefore plenty of money to be lost should his Fatima network dry up and IMO, these regular new developments are one way to keep the money machine alive - if in fact that is what he is actually doing.
Pardon me for asking, but had you "followed" any of the other "Fatima" groups
during those 20 years? Like the Fatima Family Messenger of Fr. Fox, whose
inane twisting of the facts and conspicuous calumny against his fellow priest
practically knew no bounds? It would make sense that someone who, like you,
is prone to cast aspersions on a priest, would be attracted to Fr. Fox's
checkered works. Please note: all the time Fr Fox was doing his dirty work,
and giving interviews with his doubletalk and alligator grin, Fr. Gruner never
said a word about Fr Fox's ad hominem attacks. That alone should tell you
a lot - if you're interested in the truth, that is.
John Paul II didn't even mention Russia; he only consecrated the world, only mentioning Russia as still needing to be consecrated according to Our Lady's requests.
Correct.
From the sound of what you all are saying, Fr. Gruner seems very commited to Fatima, but he's undecided on his stance on the crisis in the Church. What an odd fellow.
A priest in Fr. Gruner's position is not able to fight all the spot fires at once.
His commitment is the the whole and complete Message of Fatima, which is
a HUGE topic in itself. You really can't expect to tell him what to do. He is
the priest and you are not. Did you go telling Fr. Frank Poncelet that he
should be preaching about the evils of Vat.II or the crisis in the Church or
the problems with the NovusOrdomass or the corruption of the sacraments,
or the abuse of children, or the Worker Priest movement, INSTEAD of
preaching about the evils of Television and telling people to put a brick
through their screen? Why not? Aren't you the one who is on the warpath
for ANY PRIEST who does not fight the CRISIS IN THE CHURCH fight just
the way you want to see it?
Or, are you just devoted somehow to smearing the good name of Fr. Gruner?????
If I were not more familiar with your posts, Alex117, I would suspect the latter.
But I think you are really better than that, so you get cut some slack... for now...
No, Alex. Fr. Gruner is not an odd fellow. He is a gentle fellow. He is a very good Catholic priest, and I am sorry you listened to people trying to sully his good name.
As I said, I've not followed him for over 20 years but I would like to know where it is he places his allegiance. Does he still say the NO as he did back in the 80s? In those days, he only celebrated the TLM on occasion so I ask only out of curiosity.
Has he ever explained what the the people of Russia will be converted too?
I mean that right now, the Church is under modernist control - has he ever explained how the Russian people will be converted to the true faith and not the NO faith?
I ask because since the modernist NO is the error of Russia, it makes zero sense to have a modernist pope and all modernist bishops consecrate the people of Russia for their conversion to the NO.
I am not trying to be facetious but to my limited knowledge about him, he still awaits for the pope, who sees no reason for the conversion of anyone let alone the people of Russia, along with all the bishops of the world, who are arguably the boldest of all anti-Catholic conspirators, to consecrate Russia to the IHM for their conversion - seems insane to me because to what are the people of Russia going to convert to these days? - The NO?
The Church and faith are unrecognizable these days compared to when the consecration was supposed to have been done so I am assuming that he has an answer to this dilemma.
-
Neil,
I read his book, "Fatima Priest", but will stand by my previous criticisms of Father Gruner's organization.
More recently, I also disagree with Father Gruner's and Chris Ferrara's assessment that we should be "consoled" by the election of Pope Francis.
I'm just saying, something isn't right. Bp. Williamson has commented many times that nowadays, it would be strange if true a Catholic organizations wasn't infiltrated.
-
https://www.facebook.com/frngruner?hc_location=reminder_birthday
-
Second criticism:
I think his organization is infiltrated with people who want to damage his apostolate.
Why do I say this?
I've been on his mailing list for over ten years and used to be a monthly donor. During this time, I noticed "irregularities" in how I did and did not receive his publications and solicitations for donations.
It was as if there are saboteurs within his group that was attempting to disrupt his operation.
I think seeing the hand of saboteurs in this is a bit grandiose. It simply requires inept or overworked volunteers, or perhaps an overworked Father Gruner himself.
Fr. Gruner does not claim to run a business model of perfection.
Second criticism:
I think his organization is infiltrated with people who want to damage his apostolate.
Why do I say this?
I've been on his mailing list for over ten years and used to be a monthly donor. During this time, I noticed "irregularities" in how I did and did not receive his publications and solicitations for donations.
It was as if there are saboteurs within his group that was attempting to disrupt his operation.
I think seeing the hand of saboteurs in this is a bit grandiose. It simply requires inept or overworked volunteers, or perhaps an overworked Father Gruner himself.
Well, come on now. These "irregularities" went on for over ten years.
For example, if I was one of your monthly financial supporters, do you think you'd send me the Fatima Crusader one in a while ?
Never got one.
Infiltration is a given. Even Fr. Gruner admitted the warning of a satanic apparition on the day he started the apostolate. (Ref: Fatima priest)
So how can you be on his "mailing list" for 10 years and never receive a
Crusader? You must be the only person on planet earth who sent donations
without ever getting a Crusader. Perhaps you should get a reward of some
kind, like a trophy or tickets to a hockey game? I mean, really. Fr. sends
Crusaders to THOUSANDS of people who never send ANY money in.
This makes no sense, literally. Did you use an incorrect mailing address?
Maybe he sends the Crusader to your 'other' address? Did you check it?
No, Alex. Fr. Gruner is not an odd fellow. He is a gentle fellow. He is a very good Catholic priest, and I am sorry you listened to people trying to sully his good name.
As I said, I've not followed him for over 20 years but I would like to know where it is he places his allegiance. Does he still say the NO as he did back in the 80s? In those days, he only celebrated the TLM on occasion so I ask only out of curiosity.
Has he ever explained what the the people of Russia will be converted too? I mean that right now, the Church is under modernist control - has he ever explained how the Russian people will be converted to the true faith and not the NO faith?
I ask because since the modernist NO is the error of Russia, it makes zero sense to have a modernist pope and all modernist bishops consecrate the people of Russia for their conversion to the NO.
Do you realize how ignorant you sound here Stubborn? If I didn't know you
better by your other posts, I'd think you must be a Modernist. Who has said
that Fr. Gruner expects Russia to be interested in the Novordien Nonsense?
Our Lady said that she would convert Russia and we think she knows what
she's talking about. But wait -- Our Lady did not say "Of course, if Stubborn
doesn't think I can convert Russia then forget about the Collegial Consecration."
Maybe Sister Lucia of the Immaculate Conception left out that detail. Gotcha.
All systems are "GO." Ten-four.
I am not trying to be facetious but to my limited knowledge about him, he still awaits for the pope, who sees no reason for the conversion of anyone let alone the people of Russia, along with all the bishops of the world, who are arguably the boldest of all anti-Catholic conspirators, to consecrate Russia to the IHM for their conversion - seems insane to me because to what are the people of Russia going to convert to these days? - The NO?
Words befitting Fr. Robert J. Fox, or maybe Teihard de Chardin or Karl Rahner
(all three RIP).
But Stubborn? I didn't think you had "it" in you. So Our Lady forgot to say
that the Collegial Consecration can ONLY WORK, if the Pope KNOWS that
Russia needs to be converted, What "conversion" means, and that the Vatican
has to represent the IDEAL of the Roman Church so that Russia will want to
become just like them. Darn. When I pray my next Rosary, I'll be sure to
attach that intention, that she get a move on, and update the Message. But
wait. Sister Lucia is dead. Hmmm... Oh, I know -- just appear to Stubborn
and he can take Sister Lucia's place!! TA-DAAAAA!!
The Church and faith are unrecognizable these days compared to when the consecration was supposed to have been done
And.......... that would have been ......... uhhhh.... when?
so I am assuming that he has an answer to this dilemma.
You are expecting Fr. Gruner to singlehandedly solve the world's problems?
Well, surprise, surprise, that's exactly what he is trying to do! He puts the
whole shebang into the hands of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and promotes
the Collegial Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary because
as she said, "Only I can help you." Fr. thinks Our Lady isn't a liar.
How about you???!!!
So he's doing all he can, and if he were to take up the fight over the Newmass
vs. the old Mass, the CANONIZED Traditional Latin Mass (which is the only one
he offers BTW), he would be fighting two or more battles, just to make YOU
happy, right? Or, would you then have something else he isn't doing to your
specifications?
Do you see what I'm getting at?
Now, I know that there are a lot of questions I could ask you, like what
happens when Fr. Gruner is going to hold a Rosary Rally in a diocese far away,
and he calls the local bishop there to see if he doesn't mind Fr. Gruner contacting
a lot of the diocesan faithful to let them know there will be a CTLM at such-and-
such a place (usually at a large hotel or a conference center, such as a recent
one in Ontario Calif., the site of the old California 500 road race which was
abandoned 30 years ago)? You don't know what happens, do you?
I didn't think so.
Seems to me you don't trust the messenger of God, Sr. Lucy, and the results of the consecration to Our Lady by the bishops of Portugal in the 1930s and 1940s, saving their country from World War II and the Masonic menace.
Seems to me you don't follow Fr. Gruner either or if you do, you just showed he has yet to explain some of the concerns I asked about above.
I follow him mostly, though I do disagree on some minor points. And those concerns, big as they are, are secondary to the main issue of the Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Or do we know better than Our Lady?
No we do not know better than Our Lady but since he is the expert, he should have already addressed the obvious as often as he repeats the need for the consecration - which is why I asked if he has ever addressed those concerns. To my limited knowledge about him, he has never addressed them.
If you wouldn't mind paying attention, you would see that he addresses
those questions all the time. He gets very tired answering the same things
again and again and again, but he keeps showing up at rallies like the one
I just mentioned, and he keeps asking hundreds of open questions from all
the faithful who show up, and they come by the hundreds. Why don't you
go to one and learn something. I've been to several. They are quite
informative.
They are legitimate questions and it strikes me as being odd that trads who otherwise question, accuse or condemn the NO Church, simply accept without questioning his teachings about Fatima as though they are beyond question.
NONSENSE.
Personally, I do not know enough about him to offer my opinion as regards the OP. +20 years ago I, like the OP, knew him to be a "trad priest of some sort" who preached Fatima - that's about it.
Who is his bishop? Where or what diocese, if any, does he call home? Does he still say the NO service? These and the questions I asked in my other post are legitimate questions which the 20 odd posts in this thread have not answered - which speaking for myself, makes me think that no one knows or no one cares - all they care about is that the NO pope and all the NO bishops consecrate the people of Russia to the IMH so that the people of Russia will be converted so that there will be peace .................................. I ask again, converted to what? - the NO?
Will the consecration make the people of Russia more Catholic than the NO consecrators? If not then the whole idea is absurd, and if so, then the Fatima expert should have called attention as to how this might occur by the act itself - or at the very least make mention of it or acknowledge it for what it is.
It's not my intention to slander Fr., but he is not above question and IMO, whoever has followed him should be able to answer or give a quote or link to how Fr. answers at least some of these concerns.
You know, Stubborn, you chose your name well. You're making yourself
look really foolish. You haven't followed Fr. Gruner for 20 years, you don't
know what he's up to, and yet you have all these opinions about him -- why?
You must be getting your information from one of his many backbiting
calumniators, who, whether they realize it or not, are working for the devil,
and so you too, even if you don't know it, are on the side of the Adversary.
Happy with that?
When I drove to Canada, I found both Fr Gruner and Fr. Kramer (good guy) saying the Latin Mass. I served Fr. Kramer's Latin Mass. At the second "Domine, non sum dignus . . . ", Sr. Francis urged me to say the "Domine, no sum dignus . . ." as I had done in the 40's and 50's.
Who, may I ask, is "Sr. Francis?"
The matter that caused me grave concern was his assistant told me that Fr. Gruner told the audience during his travels to go to the NO for their First Saturdays. I then approached Fr. Gruner about this matter. He gave me a harsh look, waved his hand as if leave me alone on this question and then said, "Leave that battle to the SSPX."
I went there to offer help as I had just received a letter from him stating that he had had to lay workers of because of money problems.
At the large picnic table during a worker break, I remarked that it was a shame that Fr. Gruner had had to lay a bunch of people off bc of money problems to which they (about 15 "paid" workers) laughed and said, "Oh, it wasn't bc of money . . . we just didn't have any work for them."
Lies to the mailing list . . . and I am sure the NO devotees responded with more cash. People donate vehicles to his "apostolate" etc.
I was so sickened over the entire situation that I prayed and then left Canada to drive home.
Sumpin fishy there.
Tantum Aude.
And now you are accusing Fr. Gruner of "lies" because he said he had money
problems and now you don't think he had money problems? Who are you
to judge whether he has "money problems" or not? Do you think that having
money problems would be something he should tell his staff so they could
then look for jobs elsewhere? Do you know anything about running an all-
volunteer staff with a very few paid staffers to keep things stable?
Now you want him to run his apostolate your way? How about if he comes
and tells you how to run your business, then you can be each other's boss.
Sound fair? ............. NO?? ............... Why not??!!
I was so sickened over the entire situation that I prayed and then left Canada to drive home.
Sumpin fishy there.
I feel your pain and it is not a good testimony for Fr. Gruner.
As for something being fishy, that pretty much sums up how it's been almost since he appeared on the scene.
I mean it is one thing to promote devotion to Our Lady of Fatima - that is a wonderful thing, but as for the rest of his conclusions - who knows?
I tried looking for a pre-1975 era book on Fatima to see if a comparison to Fr. Gruner could be made and came up empty, but I did find these videos (http://www.fatimamovement.com/024_FatimaMedia.htm) interesting (scroll down to the 6th, 7th and 8th clips). I did not know that the closing scene of the move "The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima" from 1952 was actual footage from 1951 and that +Fulton Sheen was present at that filming.
At any rate, +Sheen never once mentioned the Consecration of Russia yet what +Sheen states as necessary makes all the sense in the world compared to what Fr. Gruner says - IMO.
And now Sheen is your hero? Are you aware that Sheen supported the
Novus Ordomass FULL BORE for the duration of his career and got booted
out at the end, and died a broken man? Are you aware that Sheen told
some laymen that he regretted not being more defensive of the Mass of
Ages, but that now it's too late? So if Fr. Gruner had done that, you'd be
more impressed, right?
BTW -- what is it that Sheen said about Fatima that so impressed you? Hmm?
Did he say something you can verify, or is it something you're afraid to
repeat because then you'd be responsible? It's so much more convenient
to leave it as an innuendo and besmirch thereby the name of a priest?
Shame on you, Stubborn!!
Who is his bishop? Where or what diocese, if any, does he call home?
I think some years ago he said that the Bishop of Hyderabad in India had incardinated him into his diocese. I don't know his current status. That must have been an incardination of convenience I reckon.
This was my understanding as well. He's also done this for local traditional priests in southern California; he made one of them, Fr. Patrick Perez (now Mgr.) a Monseigneur. What I've never understood was whether there was an actual need for this. A practical one, I can see. However, if you were practicing on the principle of supplied jurisdictional why seek / offer incardination? Don't get me going on the Monseigneurship.
I too heard of Fr Perez being made a Monsignor by an Indian bishop. I dont see the point of it. Priests who used to be made Monsignor usually never made it beyond that to Bishop. I think it's just a title conferred on some senior priests in a diocese in recognition of meritorious service; but I thought all such titles had to be cleared by Rome (?). I dont see where Fr Perez fits in an Indian diocese. I also cannot understand how an Indian bishop incardinated Fr Gruner who is not in good standing with the Conciliar authorities. Some Indian dioceses get bucks from overseas so why would that bishop jeopardize this?
Do you guys enjoy making yourselves look like idiots or are you just
trying to punish your own reputation to achieve some kind of self-abuse?
Now, both Msgr. Perez and Fr. Gruner are held up to your kangaroo court of
ridicule and on the absence of any hard evidence are both found guilty as
charged!!
You don't know what you're talking about, and this is sinful behavior. There
are about 100 missing facts here that you must be oblivious to, because if
you're not this is calumny -- lying to defame another.
Fr. Gruner knows very well the crisis in the church and his Fatima Crusaders reflect that very well. The Crusaders can be read online:
Fatima Crusader (http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr92/toc92.asp)
Thank you, Dolorosa.
I recall us, as a family, watching his show on TV in the 80s where Fr. Gruner always repeating the message of praying that "the Holy Father would consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary". He seemed to repeat this mantra at least a dozen times every episode - not that that's a bad thing.
Then something happened, I am not sure exactly what that was, but it seems a controversy arose because it became known that JP2 consecrated Russia - from that point on, Fr. Gruner's mantra went from "the Holy Father needs consecrate Russia" to "the pope did the consecration improperly" to "the Holy Father needs [to] consecrate Russia together with all the bishops" to "the Holy Father needs [to] consecrate Russia together with all the bishops of the world together all at the exact same time" - in effect, seemingly at least, making the act of consecration all but impossible to be performed properly.
I've not followed him for the last +20 years because of that - it could be that he found out the consecration was not properly done and also what was really necessary in order for it to be properly done, I don't know - but IMO, the whole thing seemed like - and still does to me - some kind of ploy to keep his Fatima organization alive. I also cannot help but wonder why one of the books he sells:
"The Third Secret" was like as thick as a phone book - I mean, seems like the actual secret should only be a few paragraphs long.......a pamphlet should be able to tell the third secret and have a page or two for explanations - again, IMO.
Perhaps you're not aware that a multiple volume compendium of the entire
Fatima archives written in the 1960's by a very good priest has been mothballed
and never published? Maybe that's too long for you, too. It's about 3,000 pages,
last I heard, but since it's never seen the light of day, nobody really knows
how long it is, but it's full sized books and multiple volumes, like a small
encyclopedia, for example. The "authorities" don't want it to get out because
it would embarrass them. Is that okay with you, Stubborn?
Fr. Gruner does not know what the Third Secret is, but he has done more
overall, together with a team of scholars, to discover what must be in the
Third Secret than any other lone man (or woman!) in the history of the world.
Are you not okay with that, Subborn? What have YOU done? Whatever it is,
of this we can be SURE: Fr. Gruner is not criticizing you for doing it wrong.
Now I understand there is another book relatively new they put out called "The Fourth Secret of Fatima" - whether Fr. Gruner is associated with it or not I don't know,
He is not. That was Antonio Socci, who is a renowned Italian journalist, who
pretty much put his carrer on the line to docuмent a current travesty in
progress, the unjust and Communist suppression of the Third Secret. He called
it the Fourth Secret to get your attention. I guess it worked. But since you
haven't read the book, you know nothing about it and think that Fr. Gruner is
somehow involved in its production. Well, you're wrong, again.
but for me as one who stopped paying a lot of attention to him a long time ago because every time you turned around there was some new development from Fatima, I cannot help but think that there is plenty of money involved and therefore plenty of money to be lost should his Fatima network dry up and IMO,
these regular new developments are one way to keep the money machine alive - if in fact that is what he is actually doing.
If you want to know everything about Fatima (you will know more than 99% of those who say they know about it), read the three volume set by Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite. See link:
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-author=Frere%20Michel%20de%20la%20Sa
inte%20Trinite&page=1&rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3AFrere%20Michel%20de%20la%2
0Sainte%20Trinite]
The three volumes are:
The Whole Truth About Fatima: Science and the Facts
The Whole Truth about Fatima, Volume II: The Secret and the Church
The Whole Truth About Fatima, Vol. 3, The Third Secret (1942-1960)
You will not regret reading all three. They are among my most prized books. You will not be able to put them down. Not one second is wasted in "feelings", "flowers", and "syrupy spirituality". Everything is objective and to the point. Historical facts, science, Catholic doctrine.
Bottomline is that Russia has not been consecrated as instructed by Our Blessed Mother to Lucia. Russia must be consecrated by the pope in union with all of the bishops. The day it is properly consecrated everyone will know it because there will be a mass in every diocese with your local bishop doing the consecration too. Or less likely, it will be done when all of the Bishops are gathered at Rome.
Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite (RIP) is an excellent author, whose
comprehensive work was a great inspiration to Fr. Gruner, who sought him
out and developed his own understanding of the Fatima Message by the
assistance of this good monk, who went into seclusion late in life and then
passed away, sadly. His passing was a great loss to the world.
Fr. Gruner has had the privilege of meeting and working with some very
special figures in recent history, perhaps the most prominent of whom
was Padre Pio, who conferred upon him his life's work with words just
meant for him, that he would lead a very important apostolate for the
dissemination of the true Message of Fatima.
But maybe Subborn knows better than Padre Pio. Sorry, I forgot.
-
Neil,
I read his book, "Fatima Priest", but will stand by my previous criticisms of Father Gruner's organization.
More recently, I also disagree with Father Gruner's and Chris Ferrara's assessment that we should be "consoled" by the election of Pope Francis.
Would you be happier to see them say, "WELL HERE WE GO AGAIN - ANOTHER
HERETIC! OUT WITH ONE IN WITH ANOTHER! WHEN'S THIS GOING TO END?
STOP THE WORLD! I WANT TO GET OFF?"
Reality check: Their First Objective is to get the Collegial Consecration
done properly. Is that the approach you would take to getting it done, insult
the new pope?
OR, if you had received personal replies from Cardinal Bergoglio in years
prior to his election as Pope (as Fr. Gruner has so received), in the form
of letters that respond to your apostolate (as Fr. Gruner has so received),
would you be a little bit - just a little bit happy (I know it's tough to be happy
at a time like this!) to have been ENCOURAGED by Cardinal Bergoglio (as
Fr. Gruner has so been) in your apostolate, an apostolate MIND YOU that
SPECIFICALLY and OPENLY has CONSISTENTLY promoted the Collegial
Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary?
Or, would you be more likely to say to your staff, including Chris Ferrara,
"You know guys, it could be a good thing that we have a new Pope who is
in favor of the Collegial Consecration, but you know guys, Incredulous over
at CI isn't too hot on this idea, so you know what guys, "let's just scrap it."
Let's abandon the whole plan and stop thinking about how we could say that
anyone could be consoled by this papal election.
Just FUGGEDDABOUDIT!*
Sound like a plan????
I'm just saying, something isn't right. Bp. Williamson has commented many times that nowadays, it would be strange if true a Catholic organizations wasn't infiltrated.[/color]
Something isn't right is right -- it's called DIABOLICAL DISORIENTATION, and
it so happens to be a worldwide epidemic right now. But for you to claim that
Fr. Gruner is somehow suspect on the grounds that you never got a Crusader is
frankly weird. I tell you what -- PM me your address and I will personally
make sure you get one of each of the past 10 Crusaders in less than two
weeks. Guaranteed.
(http://d2jkk5z9de9jwi.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/fellay_smaller.jpg)
"FUGGEDDABOUDIT!"
-
Post (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=22858&min=20#P1)
I was so sickened over the entire situation that I prayed and then left Canada to drive home.
Sumpin fishy there.
I feel your pain and it is not a good testimony for Fr. Gruner.
So have you been listening to too many reruns of Bill Clinton? "I kin feel
your pain!!" "It all depends on the meaning of the word, 'is'."
As for something being fishy, that pretty much sums up how it's been almost since he appeared on the scene.
I mean it is one thing to promote devotion to Our Lady of Fatima - that is a wonderful thing, but as for the rest of his conclusions - who knows?
I tried looking for a pre-1975 era book on Fatima to see if a comparison to Fr. Gruner could be made and came up empty, but I did find these videos (http://www.fatimamovement.com/024_FatimaMedia.htm) interesting (scroll down to the 6th, 7th and 8th clips). I did not know that the closing scene of the move "The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima" from 1952 was actual footage from 1951 and that +Fulton Sheen was present at that filming.
At any rate, +Sheen never once mentioned the Consecration of Russia yet what +Sheen states as necessary makes all the sense in the world compared to what Fr. Gruner says - IMO.
Stubborn, I cannot believe you provide a link to such a nonsense website.
Whoever put that together is a loony tune at best and an apostate plant
at worst.
Here is what they have on the Rosary:
THE ORIGINAL ROSARY
INCORRECT:
HERETICAL FORM INTRODUCED IN THE
MIDDLE AGES, THE DECADE SYSTEM IS
NOT THE ORIGINAL FORM
(A common, modern rosary shown with
5 decades, centerpiece, 4 large beads,
one between each of the 5 decades,
5 beads between the centerpiece and
the crucifix, 2 large, 3 small like decade beads)
CORRECT:
ORIGINAL FORM GIVEN TO ST. DOMINIC MUST
BE 150 UNINTERRUPTED BEADS THIS IS OUR
LADY'S PSALTER TO PRAY AGAINST THE
SATANIC CHANTING OF THE PSALMISTS OF
DAVID (150) WHO AWAIT THE Jєωιѕн MESSIAH.
(A modified string of beads, like Buddhist beads,
with no larger Pater Noster beads at all, but 150
Ave beads, all in a row, etc.)
The Lord Beads must be removed.
This is the reason for the Fatima Prayer which must be said after
every Lord's Prayer,
"Oh my Jesus, please pardon my sins and save me from the fires of Hell..."
A. Make the sign of the Cross:
"In the name of Our Lady, God Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost who was, is
and ever shall be."
B. "Oh, my Jesus Christ, please pardon my sins and save me from the fires
of hell. Please deliver all souls from purgatory, especially those most in need."
C. "Hail, full of grace. God is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and
blessed is the fruit of thy womb. Our Lady, Mother of God, pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death."
D. "Glory be to Our Lady, God Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost who was, is
and ever shall be."
E. "Hail Holy Queen of Heaven, our sweetness, our life, our hope. To you do
we cry, poor banished children of Eve, to you do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Please turn your eyes towards us,
and after this, our exile, please show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb,
God Jesus Christ. Oh clement, loving, sweet Mother of God, pray for us that
we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
www.fatimamovement.com
Anyone who prays the Rosary (I hope!) knows what's wrong with this.
They're saying the PaterNoster beads should be removed and only have
the Aves, 150 in a row. Right. Just try to keep track of the mysteries like that.
Note: no mention of mysteries meditations on fatimamovement.com.
The Fatima prayer (which is wrong here - this sounds like it was composed
by Pablo the Mexican, 'amateur exorcist') is said "after every Lord's prayer."
Uhh... no, it is not. It is said after every Glory be to the Father prayer.
This thing is so wrong it isn't even funny.................
The sign of the cross: "In the name of Our Lady, God Jesus Christ, and
the Holy Ghost who was, is and ever shall be?" I don't think so!
So this is the kind of thing that impresses Stubborn, is it?
I don't need to hear any more.
-
Do you realize how ignorant you sound here Stubborn? If I didn't know you
better by your other posts, I'd think you must be a Modernist. Who has said
that Fr. Gruner expects Russia to be interested in the Novordien Nonsense?
I know I have much to learn but don't know who said Fr. expects Russia to be interested in the NO - I know I didn't.
Our Lady said that she would convert Russia and we think she knows what
she's talking about. But wait -- Our Lady did not say "Of course, if Stubborn
doesn't think I can convert Russia then forget about the Collegial Consecration."
Maybe Sister Lucia of the Immaculate Conception left out that detail. Gotcha.
All systems are "GO." Ten-four.
I assume most here know that Our Lady is our only hope and that Our Lady gave Sr. Lucia the formula for her intercession which must be followed.
And I agree with you that I do not know an awful lot about him or what he preaches about Fatima and the "Third Secret" - as I already admitted..............
My issue is that after an apostolate of some 30 years and publishing book after book - some thicker than a phone book - and reading the libs on FE who praise the good Father yet still defend the NO in the same breath, tells me that something is fishy somewhere. Tells me that somehow the actual errors of Russia remain largely unknown by many of those who do know about him and follow his teachings on the matter. Not that FE is in any way a make or break decision maker - FE is just sort of a convenient gauge.
Can you post a snip or two of him clearly condemning the NO and / or it's mass or clearly identifying the NO as "thee" major error - or one of the major errors of Russia for me?
As far as +Sheen goes, the things he said were clear and true - he said repeatedly that "pray and do penance is what's needed" and it would still ring true if he was a 33rd degree Freemason.
-
Do you realize how ignorant you sound here Stubborn? If I didn't know you
better by your other posts, I'd think you must be a Modernist. Who has said
that Fr. Gruner expects Russia to be interested in the Novordien Nonsense?
I know I have much to learn but don't know who said Fr. expects Russia to be interested in the NO - I know I didn't.
As I said, I've not followed him for over 20 years but I would like to know where it is he places his allegiance. Does he still say the NO as he did back in the 80s? In those days, he only celebrated the TLM on occasion so I ask only out of curiosity.
Has he ever explained what the the people of Russia will be converted [to]? I mean that right now, the Church is under modernist control - has he ever explained how the Russian people will be converted to the true faith and not the NO faith?
I ask because since the modernist NO is the error of Russia, it makes zero sense to have a modernist pope and all modernist bishops consecrate the people of Russia for their conversion to the NO.
Perhaps you're not familiar with the apostolate in Russia that is trying to
evangelize the Russian people by way of the NovusOrdo liturgy, and has
been trying to do so for about 30 years and has made practically no
real progress? "Aid to the Church in Need," founded by Fr. Werenfried van
Straaten (†1913 - 2003), has run a "chapel boat on the Volga river (http://www.acnuk.org/pages/your-help-in-russia.html)" in
hopes of getting Russians interested in the latest Novordien claptrap.
Good luck. They actually run a loudspeaker that projects the Russian
language vernacular liturgy of the day from this floating Jack-in-the-Box.
But they keep going because they have funding, apparently. It's
based in England, and it asks for your donation of £160 a year "per student."
That's just one example. The point is, there is a false message going out,
and to overcome that, this promised conversion of Russia is going to have
to be beyond any human power - a most miraculous thing, and no Volga
river boat project is going to be what makes it happen.
Fr. Gruner does not expect Russia to be interested in anything NovusOrdo.
Upon their conversion Russians will only be interested in the perennial
Magisterium (teaching offfice - not people but a THING) of Holy Mother
Church, which, at this point is rather obscure and something our current
Pope is not very well-versed with, either, which means ALL THE GREATER
the miracle that is needed!
If your thing is novels, and you enjoy a good fiction story, you might like
to read Russian Sunrise, a recent novel by Bruce W. Walters M.D., that
provides a believable story of how this conversion of Russia might occur, in
case you think it's somehow "impossible" even though "all things are
possible with God" (Mk. x. 27).
BTW, if you're a drinker, you might be interested in the 'drink' Russian
Sunrise, which is actually described in the novel. I don't recall the
mix exactly, but it involves basically a screwdriver and something else
too. I tried it and concluded that it was a LOSER for a drink. So much
for that. IMHO Dr. Walters should have consulted a bartender first!
Our Lady said that she would convert Russia and we think she knows what
she's talking about. But wait -- Our Lady did not say "Of course, if Stubborn
doesn't think I can convert Russia then forget about the Collegial Consecration."
Maybe Sister Lucia of the Immaculate Conception left out that detail. Gotcha.
All systems are "GO." Ten-four.
I assume most here know that Our Lady is our only hope and that Our Lady gave Sr. Lucia the formula for her intercession which must be followed.
And I agree with you that I do not know an awful lot about him or what he preaches about Fatima and the "Third Secret" - as I already admitted..............
My issue is that after an apostolate of some 30 years and publishing book after book - some thicker than a phone book - and reading the libs on FE who praise the good Father yet still defend the NO in the same breath, tells me that something is fishy somewhere. Tells me that somehow the actual errors of Russia remain largely unknown by many of those who do know about him and follow his teachings on the matter. Not that FE is in any way a make or break decision maker - FE is just sort of a convenient gauge.
Our Lady did not tell Sister Lucia that someone is going to have to first
convert all the libs on FE before the Consecration can be done properly.
You have an 'advantage' over me because I don't read the libs over at FE
nor would I pass judgment on Fr. Gruner by what they say even if I did go to
FE and read their drivel. Do you also pass judgment on Fr. Pfeiffer or
Bishop Williamson based on what the libs at FE have to say about them?
NO? So your penchant to judge Fr. Gruner based on what the libs at FE say
is ONLY limited to Fr. Gruner? Sounds a bit off base, Stubborn. A little
jaundiced, shall we say?
Maybe "unfair," "twisted," "weird," "suspicious."
It is not Fr. Gruner's project to first convert the libs at FE, or first convert
the libs ANYWHERE, for that matter. He won't mind conversion of libs as
a fringe benefit, but that isn't his primary goal. He is building with
available materials. He's asking everyone who would listen to pray, do
penance and ASK THEIR LOCAL BISHOP TO JOIN THE POPE IN THE
COLLEGIAL CONSECRATION. -- Now, maybe you know how to get the
libs at FE to do that better than Fr. Gruner does. Maybe you ought to get
busy and first convert all the libs on FE so then they will eagerly get
behind STUBBORN to ask their local bishop to join the Pope in the
Collegial Consecration of Russia! Sound good? I didn't think so.
You're stuck in a RUT, Stubborn, thinking that by condemning the NovusOrdo
Fr. Gruner is going to make a whit of progress toward his PRIMARY
GOAL, which is the Consecration of Russia. PERIOD. It's not a bad
quest. Or, maybe according to Stubborn, it's the problem. Maybe you
think Fr. Gruner should ignore the mission that Padre Pio set him out on
some 50 years ago. Maybe your sense is better than Padre Pio's.
Can you post a snip or two of him clearly condemning the NO and / or [its] mass or clearly identifying the NO as "thee" major error - or one of the major errors of Russia for me?
Maybe that would impress you, and maybe it would impress me, and maybe
it would impress others, but would it impress 99.9% of the world's Catholics
who are categorically TURNED OFF to the practice of condemnation of error?!?!?
Fr. Gruner condemns the errors of Russia in general, but condemnation of
error, per se, (in case you haven't noticed) has fallen out of use in the
post-conciliar Church ever since John XXIII gave his Most Regrettable Speech
(MRS) on October 11th, 1962, and, ever since then, Catholics at large have
been wandering around in a satanic fog of being lost without direction,
and that is what Fr. Gruner has to work with. IOW, if he goes around
preaching the condemnation of error, his words will fall on deaf ears and
he won't get much cooperation amongst the world's Catholics WHO ARE
MOSTLY NOVUS ORDO PARISHIONERS, in case you haven't noticed.
Trads only comprise about 1/10th of 1% of Catholics. (SHOCK!)
As of the MRS Catholics have been 'confirmed' in the DIABOLICAL
DISORIENTATION that Sister Lucia spoke of, words which are most likely
in the Third Secret that has not been released -- yet.
Years ago, that is, in 1999, at his World Peace 2000 Conference in Hamilton,
Canada, there was a NovusOrdo chapel set up where they used only the 1971
vintage missal, for the NovusOrdo liturgy in English. But it was not Fr. Gruner
who offered that, but one of the visiting priests, of which there were about 20.
They had another chapel, down the hall, where the CTLM only was offered,
and Fr. Gruner said Mass there only. There were about 5 rotating priests who
said only the CTLM in that chapel, and I don't recall all their names, but one
was Fr. Paul Kramer, and another was Fr. Sergius Marie from San Diego, CA.
Another one was from England, who had a curious difficulty with calling the
Mass the "CANONIZED" Traditional Latin Mass, BUT, his pronunciation of
Latin was absolutely the best I have ever heard, bar none. Fr. Gruner was
then, and continues now, to lead by example.
He does not go about slapping local bishops with the gauntlet of "do this my
way or else!" He tries to get along with the ordinary of the diocese where
he is going. In advance, he asks their permission to invite the faithful of
their diocese to attend a rosary rally and some talks about the Message of
Fatima, without pointing the finger of blame on those bishops, even if they
are objectively blameworthy. Fr. Gruner cannot fight all those battles at
once, because he isn't Superman. He isn't a one-man army.
His staff and volunteers at the Fatima Center do not have any Novus Ordo
liturgy there, and Fr.'s little chapel only has the CTLM offered in it. But at
the same time, he recognizes that most of his reading audience are Novordien
parishioners all over the world, and keeping in mind the primary objective
of his apostolate -- the Collegial Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate
Heart of Mary by the Pope and all the bishops of the world, at one time,
in one place, or at most in various places worldwide but on the same day,
and with the same intention, mentioning Russia by name and of necessity,
as the object of the Collegial Consecration -- keeping that in mind, he
recognizes that having MORE Catholics asking the Pope to do this, and giving
their loving requests of participation for their local bishops to join with the
Pope for this important "5-minute prayer," is something that he can better
achieve if he keeps the crosshairs trained on the Message of Fatima, rather
than on other targets like the Newmass. There are other reasons for this,
too, if you are interested.
As far as +Sheen goes, the things he said were clear and true - he said repeatedly that "pray and do penance is what's needed" and it would still ring true if he was a 33rd degree Freemason.
You need to read False Friends of Fatima, a book that's about 3 years old,
as I recall. It's not an easy read, though. The author is Chris Ferrara, and
his style is openly lawyeresque in this book, so if you're accustomed to
reading legal briefs, you'll be right at home. But if you're not, you'll need
to keep a dictionary at hand. The reason he does this is the setting is
somewhat of a court case where his client, Fr. Gruner, stands accused
of calumny and malfeasance by such nefarious miscreants as Fr. Robert
J. Fox, of infelicitous memory (may God have mercy on his soul).
If you have any interest in how reprehensibly a Modernist priest can
treat a traditional (not Modernist) priest from a distance -- without ever
meeting him or working with him, but under the auspices of conducting
the same kind of apostolate (Fatima Family Messenger) in the way it
really 'should' be done (like any 'good' FALSE friend of Fatima ought to do it)
-- perhaps this would be good for you just on that basis.
In it, you will find, for the first time, Fr. Gruner is quoted explaining some of
the longstanding and subversive work that people like Fr. Robert J. Fox and
others have done to cast aspersions on Fr. Gruner's work. Their principal
theme has been to REDUCE the Message of Fatima to MERELY a call for
prayer and penance. And it sounds like Bishop Sheen might
fall into that category, at least to some degree, by default, although he
is not mentioned in FFF. I'm talking about the principle of the thing.
They turn it around and say that world peace and the "reign of Mary" will
come when WE as Catholics 'convert' and pray and do penance, and the
reason that it's taking so long is all our fault.
This is a half-truth, and, as such, is a whole lie. They remove the onus on
the Pope and bishops for making the Collegial Consecration (as I described
above, and as Our Lady gave to Sr. Lucy on June 13th, 1929 in Tuy, Spain
in the context of the most all-encompassing theophany in the history of
the world) and place it on the faithful, entirely. They go so far as to say
that "the consecration of Russia has been done," which is a complete
falsehood, a LIE.
Now, maybe Sheen was one of the first of such liars (regarding the sole
need for prayer and penance, omitting the Consecration), I'm not sure, but
he most certainly SHOULD have known about the need for the Collegial
Consecration if he had done his homework. At the time, in the 1960's,
the Consecration of Russia was not up-front-and-center for discussion,
for many reasons, and the diabolical disorientation was intense so as
to keep the Third Secret of Fatima from being revealed as it was supposed
to be in 1960, since Sister Lucia had not died yet at that time.
If the Consecration has been done, let's say, by JPII in 1984, then why do
we still have the errors of Russia running rampant and no world peace
and no conversion of Russia after 29 years? Our Lady promised those
things as effects of the Consecration, so even if they were to happen
today, why would anyone attribute to an old, dusty event 29 years ago
the honor of being the cause of these effects? They wouldn't.
If the Consecration has been done, then Our Lady is a liar, i.e., impossible.
When the Consecration is done properly, Russia will convert and a period
of peace will come to the world. In order for it to make sense, it would
have to be an immediate, miraculous conversion, and there are precedents
for that very thing throughout history, the first of which being the conversion
of St. Paul, who was struck down and temporarily blinded. The story is in
the Acts of the Apostles.
If the Consecration is not done as it was requested, wars and famine would
break out (which we have had some of, but maybe it's going to get worse),
the good would suffer along with the bad, the Pope will have much to suffer
(we just had a pope abdicate probably because he can't stand the heat)
and various nations will be annihilated. Are you eager to have that happen
before the Consecration is done properly?
It's a matter of priority. GET THE CONSECRATION DONE - NUMBER ONE.
How to make that happen? Well, prayer and penance, yes, but is that all?
How about asking the Pope and bishops to make the Collegial Consecration?
Are you aware that St. Anthony of Padua was canonized a saint within one
year of his death BECAUSE the Catholics of the world rose up and
DEMANDED it? Those were the good old days, almost 800 years ago.
The 700th anniversary was just after that fateful 1929 apparition at Tuy in
the context of Fatima, in 1931. The 800th anniversary will be in 2031.
Are you aware that Pope Pius XI gave the world the Act of Reparation to
the Sacred Heart of Jesus in 1924 (which you can find in your Daily Missal
like Fr. Lasance or St. Andrew's), largely because of the rising voices
of the faithful in Portugal who had been affected by the Fatima apparitions?
Did you know that Pope St. Pius V attributed the victory at Lepanto to the
prayers of thousands of Catholics who responded to his plea of praying
the Rosary? That is where the Feast of the Holy Rosary comes from, on
October 7th every year.
The more requests keep coming from all corners of the world for the
Collegial Consecration, the sooner it will happen. Our Lady said that
"it will be late," but it has been "late" by our standards for many decades.
-
Neil,
I asked for a few snips of Fr. Gruner clearly condemning the NO and / or it's mass or clearly identifying the NO as "thee" major error of Russia. Can't you find any?
I gave you the reason why I asked for the snips.
After 30 odd years of "the Fatima priest" preaching the message of Fatima, I do not think it is an unreasonable request or too much to ask in order for everyone to know where he stands on such a crucial matter.
The reason I say there is something fishy with him is due to the fact is that he has a lot of NO followers who all believe that the Consecration of Russia is necessary - yet they continue to dwell within Russia's errors by their continued participation and defense of the NO.
You have said twice that "Fr. Gruner does not expect Russia to be interested in anything NovusOrdo" - as if that has anything to do with what I am asking you to supply i.e. a snip or two (don't need a 9 page post) of Father Gruner clearly condemning the NO and / or it's mass or clearly identifying the NO as "thee" major error of Russia.
The only thing I can surmise by your remark is that neither Fr. Gruner nor you believe that the NO even is one of Russia's errors - is that the case?
-
Neil,
I asked for a few snips of Fr. Gruner clearly condemning the NO and / or it's mass or clearly identifying the NO as "thee" major error of Russia. Can't you find any?
I know Fr. Gruner's work well enough to know that it would be useless to look
for such a thing. I can't tell you you're wasting your time if you look or keep
asking others to, but I can say that I won't be at all surprised if you come up
empty-handed.
Fr. Gruner does not say the NovusOrdo liturgy. He provides the example of
only offering the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass, like so many independent
priests do, and UNLIKE so many SSPX priests do. But I guess that's not
important to you, either, is it, Stubborn. You have selectively limited your
hit-list to the NovusOrdo as the be-all and end-all of the whole war. Okay.
I gave you the reason why I asked for the snips.
After 30 odd years of "the Fatima priest" preaching the message of Fatima, I do not think it is an unreasonable request or too much to ask in order for everyone to know where he stands on such a crucial matter.
You are entitled to your opinion. But you refuse to pay attention to my answer.
I gave you a well-thought-out reply and it means nothing to you. Now you want
a different well-thought-out reply? You remind me of people I have known who
keep asking the same question, even though they keep getting the same answer,
but maybe they figure that if the ask it enough times, then one day the answer
they're looking for will suddenly emerge.
The reason I say there is something fishy with him is due to the fact is that he has a lot of NO followers who all believe that the Consecration of Russia is necessary - yet they continue to dwell within Russia's errors by their continued participation and defense of the NO.
I already answered this but you are not listening, because it's not what you
want to hear. You want Fr. Gruner to take orders from Stubborn, apparently.
You have said twice that "Fr. Gruner does not expect Russia to be interested in anything NovusOrdo" - as if that has anything to do with what I am asking you to supply i.e. a snip or two (don't need a 9 page post) of Father Gruner clearly condemning the NO and / or it's mass or clearly identifying the NO as "thee" major error of Russia.
You want Fr. Gruner to abandon millions of NovusOrdo parishioners who have
not somehow received the grace that you have and that I have and that Fr.
Gruner has, which is the grace to leave the NovusOrdo behind and only assist
at or offer the CTLM. Well, guess what? There are a lot of SSPX faithful and
priests, including Frs. Pfeiffer, Hewko and Chazal, who have not received that
grace either. Why are you not upset about that? Or, is it YOU, Stubborn, who
have not received that grace and cannot therefore see the difference between
the 1962 Missal of John XXIII and the CTLM?
Maybe that's the problem.
The only thing I can surmise by your remark is that neither Fr. Gruner nor you believe that the NO even is one of Russia's errors - is that the case?
The only thing I can surmise by your remark is that you, Stubborn, do not
believe that the corrupted Missal of John XXIII (aka 1962) is one of Russia's
errors - is that the case?
Is it incuмbent on everyone who sees it as so to be obliged to get right up and
make that their banner proclamation for all to see? It's a bit like saying that
everyone who has become sedevacantist is duty-bound to evangelize the
tenets of sedevacantism. So do you think that is true? I don't.
A number of people I know are NovusOrdo parishioners. Am I obliged to keep
on preaching to them that they have to abandon their error of Russia? Is that
what you do?
Do you know anyone who goes to the local Novordien Nonsense parish? Do
you make sure to tell them that if they die that way they're going to hell? Or
do you only think it's essential to denounce it as "THEE" [sic] error of Russia
even though it has NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO with their eternal salvation?
How about you explaining yourself, Stubborn. Why is this so important to you?
Is it because you want everyone to be sedevacantist and then you'd be happy?
P.S. Please forgive me if I typed a few more words than you want to read.
-
So based on your post, am I correct in saying that you yourself do not believe that the NO is the fruit of Russia's errors?
You see nothing whatsoever odd with the Fatima Priest, who has taken it upon himself to preach the story of Fatima for the last 30 odd years – yet he leaves out the condemnation of the NO - which enjoys being the fruit of Russia’s errors?
After 3 decades of preaching about Russia’s errors, has he at least published a list of some sort, dictating what these “errors” are yet? Perhaps he at least includes the NO on that list somewhere. As one who knows him well, can you post a list from him on what Russia’s errors are?
You want Fr. Gruner to abandon millions of NovusOrdo parishioners who have
not somehow received the grace that you have and that I have and that Fr.
Gruner has, which is the grace to leave the NovusOrdo behind and only assist
at or offer the CTLM. Well, guess what? There are a lot of SSPX faithful and
priests, including Frs. Pfeiffer, Hewko and Chazal, who have not received that
grace either. Why are you not upset about that? Or, is it YOU, Stubborn, who
have not received that grace and cannot therefore see the difference between
the 1962 Missal of John XXIII and the CTLM?
Maybe that's the problem.
Where did I say that I wanted Fr. Gruner to abandon millions of NOers? Why take such a stand for the Fatima Priest who is not telling the millions of NOers that by their attendance at the new "mass" that they show their acceptance of the NO and thereby help support Russia's error? What is it exactly that are you attempting to defend?
I asked you (or anyone for that matter) for just a few snips from Fr. Gruner showing that he condemns the NO *for what it is* - I certainly did not think that was a very big thing to ask, sorry to say that it certainly does not warrant your acting like CI is FE.
-
I will write my opinion, as short as possible.
I think Fr. Gruner is running a business around Fatima.
This opinion is based on what I read from this thread, and my own conclusions after reading a book titled "Fatima, Rome, Moscow".
-
I will write my opinion, as short as possible.
I think Fr. Gruner is running a business around Fatima.
This opinion is based on what I read from this thread, and my own conclusions after reading a book titled "Fatima, Rome, Moscow".
Yeah, I'd like to see his financial books...
Oh darn... why did I have to say that ?
Here comes another "thumbs-down" from Neil... ouch! :fryingpan:
-
Incred, I did not "thumb you down." Did you "thumb me down?" I didn't
think so. Because I think you're not that type. HAHAHAHA
I don't know what you guys hope to achieve. Fr. Gruner is, and has been,
doing the same thing for all the time he has been a priest, and has been
assaulted from all sides as a result. Now you're going to assault him too?
He's used to it. But he could do without it.
He is devoted to the prospect and the hope (in the temporal sense) that
he can do his part to get the Pope to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate
Heart of Mary. You guys don't seem to have any problem with that, but
instead, you accuse him of going about it in the wrong way. You want him
to go on the offensive against everything NovusOrdo, especially the
Newmass, and then you'll be happy. But when I ask you how do you
suppose his going to war against the Newmass can be helpful in getting
the Collegial Consecration done, you have NO ANSWER. But instead,
like +Fellay, endeavor to ignore the question.
Stubborn keeps demanding proof that Fr. Gruner has come out swinging
against thee [sic] error of Russia, a.k.a. NovusOrdoNewmass.
Icred likes to harp on the money question, that Fatima is the Goose that
laid Fr. Gruner's golden egg. Last time I checked, TV time and Foster&
Kleiser billboards don't come cheap. But Fr. Gruner has managed to
get BOTH of them done, plus radio, plus over 100 Crusaders, plus an
orphanage in India, all for one purpose and one purpose only - to
encourage the Pope to consecrate Russia as Our Lady asked.
Do you have a better idea? Have you funded an orphanage?
You must have a better idea, because otherwise you
wouldn't be so bent on criticizing his work!
But you haven't said what your idea is. Why not? Are you hoping to
get your own industry started up? Okay, then hecklers can come
along and criticize the way you're doing it. Won't that be fun?
If it were not for the apostolate of Fr. Nicholas Gruner, the entire issue
of the Collegial Consecration would have died by now, most likely,
that is, unless God had raised up someone else to take Fr's. place.
Or, maybe we could just all be content with the annihilation of various
nations. Wouldn't that be sweet? We might be 'getting it' regardless.....
At the last Rosary Rally I saw Fr. Gruner at, he's looking old. He's now
over 70, about 71 or 72. His voice is tired. He walks more slowly. He
stammers a bit more. He invests eager applicants with the Brown
Scapular a little more slowly. He seems to be forgetting things more
often. But he keeps on keepin' on.
And he had something interesting to say. He took a Q&A session as
usual, where he answered about 200 questions, many of which were
questions he has answered many times before, and some of them
were a bit accusatory, suggesting that he is going about this in the
wrong way. His answer was pretty good, IMHO - he said, "Maybe
there is someone else who can do this, and do a better job of it
than I have been able to do."
So, step right up! Take him up on his offer! Show him a thing or two!
You know what? He won't mind!! If you can get the
Pope to do the Collegial Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate
Heart of Mary with all the bishops of the world at the same time, or
at least on the same day (within 24 hours of the Pope's consecration),
then Fr. Gruner will be the FIRST IN LINE to congratulate you, and of
this you can be sure, because I assure you it is true.
-
Neil,
I didn't thumb you down.
And let's don't talk about Fr. Gruner anymore...
Because my head be hurtin.
-
Incred, I did not "thumb you down." Did you "thumb me down?" I didn't
think so. Because I think you're not that type. HAHAHAHA
I don't know what you guys hope to achieve. Fr. Gruner is, and has been,
doing the same thing for all the time he has been a priest, and has been
assaulted from all sides as a result. Now you're going to assault him too?
He's used to it. But he could do without it.
He is devoted to the prospect and the hope (in the temporal sense) that
he can do his part to get the Pope to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate
Heart of Mary. You guys don't seem to have any problem with that, but
instead, you accuse him of going about it in the wrong way. You want him
to go on the offensive against everything NovusOrdo, especially the
Newmass, and then you'll be happy. But when I ask you how do you
suppose his going to war against the Newmass can be helpful in getting
the Collegial Consecration done, you have NO ANSWER. But instead,
like +Fellay, endeavor to ignore the question.
Stubborn keeps demanding proof that Fr. Gruner has come out swinging
against thee [sic] error of Russia, a.k.a. NovusOrdoNewmass.
Talk about someone who won't answer questions - look at my previous post in this thread, then look in the mirror Neil.
At any rate, this is why I say something is fishy with Fr. Gruner.
Since when does asking fundamental questions equate to persecution? This mirage is all too common among those people who follow Fr. Gruner.
If one were to ask his followers - What must be done to save the world?, his followers would answer: "Russia must be consecrated by the pope and bishops together etc." (his followers would automatically recite this answer in unison because they've heard him repeat it a million times)
If one were to ask his followers - Why does Russia need to be consecrated?, his followers would answer: "Because Our Lady said that Russia will spread her errors throughout the world, the holy father will have much to suffer, the good will be martyred, nations will be annihilated etc." (his followers would automatically recite this answer in unison because they've heard him repeat it a million times)
However, when one asks his followers what Fr. says the Errors of Russia are, the answer is - "you're persecuting him".
When one asks his followers what does he say about the NO, the answer is - "you're persecuting him".
WHY IS THAT?
To answer your question above again (I already answered it but you must have missed it): "But when I ask you how do you suppose his going to war against the Newmass can be helpful in getting the Collegial Consecration done, you have NO ANSWER....."
IF (Since) his purpose in life as the Fatima Priest is to gather enough prayers and support to procure the Collegial Consecration in order to stop the spread of Russia's errors and convert Russia etc. as Our Lady has asked - - - - - then you tell me........................................................
Does it make any sense for him *not* to condemn or at the very least, *not* to tell his followers to stay away from the very errors he is trying to get the pope and bishops to put an end to via the Consecration?
-
Talk about someone who won't answer questions - look at my previous post in this thread, then look in the mirror Neil.
At any rate, this is why I say something is fishy with Fr. Gruner.
Since when does asking fundamental questions equate to persecution? This mirage is all too common among those people who follow Fr. Gruner.
If one were to ask his followers - What must be done to save the world?, his followers would answer: "Russia must be consecrated by the pope and bishops together etc." (his followers would automatically recite this answer in unison because they've heard him repeat it a million times)
If one were to ask his followers - Why does Russia need to be consecrated?, his followers would answer: "Because Our Lady said that Russia will spread her errors throughout the world, the holy father will have much to suffer, the good will be martyred, nations will be annihilated etc." (his followers would automatically recite this answer in unison because they've heard him repeat it a million times)
However, when one asks his followers what Fr. says the Errors of Russia are, the answer is - "you're persecuting him".
When one asks his followers what does he say about the NO, the answer is - "you're persecuting him".
WHY IS THAT?
To answer your question above again (I already answered it but you must have missed it): "But when I ask you how do you suppose his going to war against the Newmass can be helpful in getting the Collegial Consecration done, you have NO ANSWER....."
IF (Since) his purpose in life as the Fatima Priest is to gather enough prayers and support to procure the Collegial Consecration in order to stop the spread of Russia's errors and convert Russia etc. as Our Lady has asked - - - - - then you tell me........................................................
Does it make any sense for him *not* to condemn or at the very least, *not* to tell his followers to stay away from the very errors he is trying to get the pope and bishops to put an end to via the Consecration?
Well done in asking these questions. Fr Gruner enjoys the same kind of personality cult as does Fellay, in that he has embraced a particular wedge issue among those nominally calling themselves Catholic but his objective theology is sufficiently nebulous that he alienates as few people as possible and keeps the degree of friction with various factions as a minimum.
And you've brought up an excellent point, one that has always made me wary of Fatismists, concerning the Catch-22 of the consecration. From the language of the second secret, it always seemed to me that the consecration had an undisclosed use-by date, after which purely human means would be incapable of stopping or reversing the conciliar revolution. Of course, the three successive diplomat-Pontiffs were too concerned with the Church's material body following the two world wars to pastor her soul, and Angelo Roncalli, even presuming his legitimacy, would never have upset the foreign-relations apple cart with the CCCP, especially after the Metz accord.
The Apostate Council, having fomented and perfected the modernist revolution, has affected not only the authority of the commonly-accepted conciliar hierarchy to whatever degree one accepts, but has brought with it a logical conundrum. It has been the continual, unequivocal teaching of the conciliar antichurch that the heresies of the Apostate Council are integral to the infallible magisterium of the Church. This begs the question, then, whether the putative hiearchy, should they objectively enjoy the possession and authority of their respective offices, can at once hold those offices and repudiate the pronouncements of the body of which those offices are duly constituted and which has declared those pronouncements infallible. Does it not follow, basically, that either the conciliar antichurch is fundamentally alien to the true Church of Christ, in which case the putative hierarchy do not hold their offices and cannot effect the consecration, or that the conciliar church is identical to the Church of Christ, in which case the repudiation of her magisterium, seeded by those philosophies commonly recognized as the errors of Russia, would put that hierarchy into formal heresy in the act of that repudiation?
-
Gruner's remark on the Noorey show that the King & Queen of France were executed because the Fr Monarchy failed to consecrate France to the Virgin is absurd. This guy is a lunatic.
-
Gruner's remark on the Noorey show that the King & Queen of France were executed because the Fr Monarchy failed to consecrate France to the Virgin is absurd. This guy is a lunatic.
It's not moral to call a priest a "lunatic".
-
Newest message from Fatima Center:
Our Lady’s News Release: May 8, 2013
The Pope Is Consecrating His Papacy
to Our Lady of Fatima;
Now Is the Time to Rally Around
Our Holy Father
May 8, 2013
On May 13, on the 96th anniversary of the first apparition of Our Lady of Fatima, the bishops of Portugal will perform a solemn act of consecration requested by our Holy Father. Within days of his election, Pope Francis himself asked Cardinal Policarpo of Lisbon to consecrate his papacy to Our Lady of Fatima. His Eminence asked the bishops to participate. Now, for the first time in history, a Pope is placing his pontificate under the protection of Our Lady of Fatima!
What does this mean? It means we have a Pope who realizes the crucial role of the Message of Fatima for the Church today! It means we have a Pope who has completely and irrevocably repudiated all the decades-long attempts made by key members of the hierarchy to silence and bury the Message of Fatima — and this apostolate!
Above all, it means that you and I must support the Holy Father in every way we can. We have a Pope not only devoted to Our Lady, but to Our Lady of Fatima! This is the Pope who may be ready to do, at long last, what none of his predecessors have done: command the bishops of the world to join him in consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary!
We must pray for the Holy Father. There are many forces ranged against him and the consecration. And we must let our bishops know that the time has come for each one of them to fulfill Our Lady of Fatima’s request.
We must let the bishops know we want them
to perform the consecration!
The bishops must then let the Pope know they
are ready to perform the consecration!
So I ask each and every one of you to say three Hail Marys for the May 13 consecration. Then forward this e-letter to all your friends, asking them to say three Hail Marys and to forward it to all their friends. You can help start a grass-roots prayer crusade. And let your bishop know the time has come for him to join the Holy Father in doing the only thing that will avert the “annihilation of nations” Our Lady warned us about and the only thing that will restore order and sanctity in our suffering Church.
Please, do all you can now! The time to act is now! Write or call your bishop now! Our Lady’s Apostolate has already written to all the bishops. See the letter we sent them (click here (http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/ecarchive/pdf/bishops.pdf)) asking them to join the bishops of Portugal on May 13 in consecrating Pope Francis’ pontificate to Our Lady of Fatima. Ask your bishop to join the bishops of Portugal in this act. We also wrote to 40,000+ priests; see the letter we sent them (click here (http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/eparchive/ep_0513.asp)) asking them to join in this consecration also. We have sent them the enclosed suggested prayer (click here to see the prayer (http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/pdf/ec223_consecration_prayer.pdf)). Let your bishop know you are counting on him to participate in this wonderful act of consecration.
And if you are able, please attend or support our upcoming conference: “Fatima: The Path to Peace!” For information on this and all the works of Our Lady’s Apostolate, see: http://www.fatima.org .
The Fatima Center
IN U.S.A. - 17000 State Route 30, Constable, NY 12926
IN CANADA - 452 Kraft Road, Fort Erie, ON L2A 4M7
Call us toll-free at 1-800-263-8160 or at 1-905-871-8041
or fax us at 1-905-994-7054 • www.fatima.org • E-mail: info@fatima.org
© 2013 All rights reserved.
This newsletter is intended for subscribers and others interested in the Message of Our Lady of Fatima and the work of Our Lady's Apostolate. If you wish to be removed from our e-mailing list, please let us know. Just send your reply to our e-mail address with “unsubscribe” in the subject line, and we will respect your wishes.
-
The bishops must then let the Pope know they
are ready to perform the consecration!
:facepalm:
Does the pope lead the bishops or are the bishops supposed to lead the pope?
Isn't the pope supposed to be the one telling the bishops to get ready?
What a screwed up mess.
-
Incred, I did not "thumb you down." Did you "thumb me down?" I didn't
think so. Because I think you're not that type. HAHAHAHA
I don't know what you guys hope to achieve. Fr. Gruner is, and has been,
doing the same thing for all the time he has been a priest, and has been
assaulted from all sides as a result. Now you're going to assault him too?
He's used to it. But he could do without it.
He is devoted to the prospect and the hope (in the temporal sense) that
he can do his part to get the Pope to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate
Heart of Mary. You guys don't seem to have any problem with that, but
instead, you accuse him of going about it in the wrong way. You want him
to go on the offensive against everything NovusOrdo, especially the
Newmass, and then you'll be happy. But when I ask you how do you
suppose his going to war against the Newmass can be helpful in getting
the Collegial Consecration done, you have NO ANSWER. But instead,
like +Fellay, endeavor to ignore the question.
Stubborn keeps demanding proof that Fr. Gruner has come out swinging
against thee [sic] error of Russia, a.k.a. NovusOrdoNewmass.
Talk about someone who won't answer questions - look at my previous post in this thread, then look in the mirror Neil.
At any rate, this is why I say something is fishy with Fr. Gruner.
Is slander your comfort zone, Stubborn? Do you take some kind of inordinate
pleasure out of bad-mouthing a Catholic priest?
Since when does asking fundamental questions equate to persecution? This mirage is all too common among those people who follow Fr. Gruner.
If one were to ask his followers - What must be done to save the world?, his followers would answer: "Russia must be consecrated by the pope and bishops together etc." (his followers would automatically recite this answer in unison because they've heard him repeat it a million times)
So, it seems you don't like to hear that answer, but do you have a better answer?
Is your answer that one priest, with one apostolate, and no significant support
from a local bishop (except one in India!) or from the Vatican, can single-handedly
abolish the Newmass worldwide by condemning the Newmass and telling his
readership to stop assisting at NovusOrdo services?
If one were to ask his followers - Why does Russia need to be consecrated?, his followers would answer: "Because Our Lady said that Russia will spread her errors throughout the world, the holy father will have much to suffer, the good will be martyred, nations will be annihilated etc." (his followers would automatically recite this answer in unison because they've heard him repeat it a million times)
Are you saying that is the wrong answer? It sounds like you think there is
a better answer. Do you mind sharing what your better answer is? Why do
you think Russia needs to be consecrated -- or, do you think that Russia does
not need to be consecrated? Maybe you think that Russia has already been
consecrated?
However, when one asks his followers what Fr. says the Errors of Russia are, the answer is - "you're persecuting him".
And the Stubborn list of the errors of Russia is one and one alone?
1) Newmass?
Is it Fr. Gruner's job to define what the errors of Russia are? Why didn't Our
Lady get more specific? Maybe they are listed in the Third Secret? Well,
probably not because it's only about 25 lines of text, so that doesn't leave
a lot of room for examples.
Usually, it's the Pope's job to condemn error but we all know that's been
abandoned since J23's M.R.S. in 1962. So who else is there to say what the
errors of Russia are? Maybe you think that Fr. Gruner should take the place
of the Pope, since you don't like what the Popes have been doing?
The SINGLE BIGGEST ERROR OF RUSSIA is that the Pope and bishops of
the world have not consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Once
that is done, all the other errors won't make any difference because Russia
will be converted and an era of peace will be granted to the world, and then
everyone will know what the errors of Russia were. No?
How about legalized abortion or same-sex 'marriage' or legalized prostitution
or 'reality TV' or blasphemous radio shows or apostate Catholic priests or
charity grown cold or denying Holy Communion to Resistance Faithful or
refusing you absolution because you made a post on CI or pandering to the
Jєωs or expelling a good bishop or shutting down a Traditional Mass site that
leaves 5 families with nowhere to go to Mass? Should Fr. Gruner be on the
War Path for those things too? Or should he just focus on his own, personal
condemnation of the Newmass, and then Stubborn would be happy?
When one asks his followers what does he say about the NO, the answer is - "you're persecuting him".
Fr. Gruner does not offer the Newmass. He does not promote it. Is it his job
to condemn what the Vatican persistently presents as "normal?" His offering
the CTLM consistently and patiently is not enough for you, because he's not
doing it YOUR WAY? Maybe you'd be happier if he used the Missal of John
XXIII - who most sedes think was a mini anti-Christ, an anti-pope? Hmmm?
WHY IS THAT?
You don't have to pay any attention to Fr. Gruner if you don't like him or you
have a better idea. Have you ever heard of the sin of detraction? If you think
someone has committed a sin and then you go around telling everyone about
his sin, you are committing your own sin by that act of yours. Did you know
that? If you think Fr. Gruner is the most terrible thing to walk the earth, you
have NO RIGHT to go around saying so. Because if you do, you are committing
the sin of detraction, and worse, it's based on your own personal judgment
which could be in error. And if it is in error, then your sin becomes calumny.
When it is regarding a serious matter, yours would be a mortal sin.
Am I committing sin by defending a priest when I think he is doing no wrong?
To answer your question above again (I already answered it but you must have missed it): "But when I ask you how do you suppose his going to war against the Newmass can be helpful in getting the Collegial Consecration done, you have NO ANSWER....."
IF (Since) his purpose in life as the Fatima Priest is to gather enough prayers and support to procure the Collegial Consecration in order to stop the spread of Russia's errors and convert Russia etc. as Our Lady has asked - - - - - then you tell me........................................................
Does it make any sense for him *not* to condemn or at the very least, *not* to tell his followers to stay away from the very errors he is trying to get the pope and bishops to put an end to via the Consecration?
Fr. Gruner has been battling the Modernism of Newchurch all his life. I don't
think you can say that about the vast majority of Catholic priests today.
He cannot fight all the battles of the world at one time. He leads by example,
by only celebrating the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass. He has had to defend
himself from legal and ecclesiastical 'lawsuits' that have relentlessly tried to
destroy his Fatima apostolate, for no reason other than to make it go away,
and all he does in it is promote what Our Lady said nearly 100 years ago.
Did Our Lady not know about the coming NovusOrdo nightmare? Do you think
that she came in Fatima 1917 ignorant of what was going to happen in 1969?
Do you suggest that the Newmass is not something that is hidden in the
Third Secret or that's not a reason that the Vatican so closely and tenaciously
hides the Third Secret from the world?
Do you suggest that if Fr. Gruner, who has not been told what the Third Secret
is, should go out announcing to the world what HE THINKS it is, so long as it
is what Stubborn wants him to say, like "The THIRD SECRET SAYS THE
NEWMASS IS SENDING SOULS TO HELL!!?"
Are you aware that Fr. Hannifin, who was Fr. Pfeiffer's home pastor as a child,
was well known for saying that, that the Newmass is sending souls to hell?
Did anyone listen? Apparently Fr. Pfeiffer and his brother did, because they
became SSPX priests and have never offered the Newmass. Fr. Hannifin is
among a very few priests of that age who never said the NovusOrdo Newmass.
Others include Fr. Gomar de Pauw (RIP), Fr. Raymond Ruscitto (Traver, CA),
and Fr. Harry Marchosky, (+2007).
[you left out something...]
We must let the bishops know we want them
to perform the consecration!
The bishops must then let the Pope know they
are ready to perform the consecration!
:facepalm:
Does the pope lead the bishops or are the bishops supposed to lead the pope?
Isn't the pope supposed to be the one telling the bishops to get ready?
What a screwed up mess.
You left out something because it would show how inane your thinking is.
I hope you realize that the world is better off with Fr. Gruner running the
Fatima Center than with Stubborn running it. -- So you would have the
message going out that everyone ought to contact the Pope and tell him that
he must order the bishops to join him in the Collegial Consecration and that
way it is much more likely to take place? Right?
That would be better than having Fr. Gruner's readership, which is in the
millions, all contacting their local bishops all over the world, encouraging them
to let the Pope know that they are behind him if he wants them to join him
in the Collegial Consecration?
If I have to tell you how ridiculous that is, I'm wasting my time with you.
-
Is slander your comfort zone, Stubborn? Do you take some kind of inordinate pleasure out of bad-mouthing a Catholic priest?
Are you so sensitive that when I say that something is fishy = slander? . . .. even after I explained why something *is* fishy?
So, it seems you don't like to hear that answer, but do you have a better answer?
Is your answer that one priest, with one apostolate, and no significant support
from a local bishop (except one in India!) or from the Vatican, can single-handedly
abolish the Newmass worldwide by condemning the Newmass and telling his
readership to stop assisting at NovusOrdo services?...................................................
Are you saying that is the wrong answer? It sounds like you think there is
a better answer. Do you mind sharing what your better answer is? Why do
you think Russia needs to be consecrated -- or, do you think that Russia does
not need to be consecrated? Maybe you think that Russia has already been
consecrated?
I am saying that he is not explaining himself - SEEMINGLY on purpose.
And WHY are you asking me the questions that I am asking YOU, as one who follows Fr. Gruner, to supply an answer. IF you cannot answer, humble yourself and say that you cannot answer already.
Why are you persecuting me?
You have another long post for no reason - all you need do is say you cannot answer the questions because Fr. Gruner does not condemn the NO nor does he teach what Russia's errors are.
Again, what is it that you are defending here?
-
Maybe it's all my fault, as usual! I messed up on the formatting. It
should have been like this:
Newest message from Fatima Center:
Our Lady’s News Release: May 8, 2013
The Pope Is Consecrating His Papacy
to Our Lady of Fatima;
Now Is the Time to Rally Around
Our Holy Father
May 8, 2013
On May 13, on the 96th anniversary of the first apparition of Our Lady of Fatima, the bishops of Portugal will perform a solemn act of consecration requested by our Holy Father. Within days of his election, Pope Francis himself asked Cardinal Policarpo of Lisbon to consecrate his papacy to Our Lady of Fatima. His Eminence asked the bishops to participate. Now, for the first time in history, a Pope is placing his pontificate under the protection of Our Lady of Fatima!
What does this mean? It means we have a Pope who realizes the crucial role of the Message of Fatima for the Church today! It means we have a Pope who has completely and irrevocably repudiated all the decades-long attempts made by key members of the hierarchy to silence and bury the Message of Fatima — and this apostolate!
Above all, it means that you and I must support the Holy Father in every way we can. We have a Pope not only devoted to Our Lady, but to Our Lady of Fatima! This is the Pope who may be ready to do, at long last, what none of his predecessors have done: command the bishops of the world to join him in consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary!
We must pray for the Holy Father. There are many forces ranged against him and the consecration. And we must let our bishops know that the time has come for each one of them to fulfill Our Lady of Fatima’s request.
We must let the bishops know we want them
to perform the consecration!
The bishops must then let the Pope know they
are ready to perform the consecration!
[/size][/color]
So I ask each and every one of you to say three Hail Marys for the May 13 consecration. Then forward this e-letter to all your friends, asking them to say three Hail Marys and to forward it to all their friends. You can help start a grass-roots prayer crusade. And let your bishop know the time has come for him to join the Holy Father in doing the only thing that will avert the “annihilation of nations” Our Lady warned us about and the only thing that will restore order and sanctity in our suffering Church.
Please, do all you can now! The time to act is now! Write or call your bishop now! Our Lady’s Apostolate has already written to all the bishops. See the letter we sent them (click here (http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/ecarchive/pdf/bishops.pdf)) asking them to join the bishops of Portugal on May 13 in consecrating Pope Francis’ pontificate to Our Lady of Fatima. Ask your bishop to join the bishops of Portugal in this act. We also wrote to 40,000+ priests; see the letter we sent them (click here (http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/eparchive/ep_0513.asp)) asking them to join in this consecration also. We have sent them the enclosed suggested prayer (click here to see the prayer (http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/pdf/ec223_consecration_prayer.pdf)). Let your bishop know you are counting on him to participate in this wonderful act of consecration.
And if you are able, please attend or support our upcoming conference: “Fatima: The Path to Peace!” For information on this and all the works of Our Lady’s Apostolate, see: http://www.fatima.org .
The Fatima Center
IN U.S.A. - 17000 State Route 30, Constable, NY 12926
IN CANADA - 452 Kraft Road, Fort Erie, ON L2A 4M7
Call us toll-free at 1-800-263-8160 or at 1-905-871-8041
or fax us at 1-905-994-7054 • www.fatima.org • E-mail: info@fatima.org
© 2013 All rights reserved.
This newsletter is intended for subscribers and others interested in the Message of Our Lady of Fatima and the work of Our Lady's Apostolate. If you wish to be removed from our e-mailing list, please let us know. Just send your reply to our e-mail address with “unsubscribe” in the subject line, and we will respect your wishes.
-
Is slander your comfort zone, Stubborn? Do you take some kind of inordinate pleasure out of bad-mouthing a Catholic priest?
Are you so sensitive that when I say that something is fishy = slander? . . .. even after I explained why something *is* fishy?
So, it seems you don't like to hear that answer, but do you have a better answer?
Is your answer that one priest, with one apostolate, and no significant support
from a local bishop (except one in India!) or from the Vatican, can single-handedly
abolish the Newmass worldwide by condemning the Newmass and telling his
readership to stop assisting at NovusOrdo services?...................................................
Are you saying that is the wrong answer? It sounds like you think there is
a better answer. Do you mind sharing what your better answer is? Why do
you think Russia needs to be consecrated -- or, do you think that Russia does
not need to be consecrated? Maybe you think that Russia has already been
consecrated?
I am saying that he is not explaining himself - SEEMINGLY on purpose.
And WHY are you asking me the questions that I am asking YOU, as one who follows Fr. Gruner, to supply an answer. IF you cannot answer, humble yourself and say that you cannot answer already.
Why are you persecuting me?
You have another long post for no reason - all you need do is say you cannot answer the questions because Fr. Gruner does not condemn the NO nor does he teach what Russia's errors are.
Again, what is it that you are defending here?
YOU have "another long post for no reason." I have answered your questions,
but you have not answered my questions and you wrongly accuse me of the
same. And now I am persecuting you?
It is YOU, Stubborn, who are attempting to persecute Fr. Gruner.
I can understand that you're frustrated, because your intention to defame
a good priest and to unjustly persecute him is NOT WORKING.
Too bad for you!
It is you, who are defaming the name of a good priest, and I am defending it.
-
YOU have "another long post for no reason." I have answered your questions,
but you have not answered my questions and you wrongly accuse me of the
same. And now I am persecuting you?
It is YOU, Stubborn, who are attempting to persecute Fr. Gruner.
It is you, who are defaming the name of a good priest, and I am defending it.
So asking what he says about the NO and what the errors of Russia are means that I am I defaming Fr. Gruner?
Saying something is fishy because in 30 years, he has completely neglected to directly address many issues including the few I asked for information about means I am defaming him?
Pretty touchy there Neil.
-
The bishops must then let the Pope know they
are ready to perform the consecration!
:facepalm:
Does the pope lead the bishops or are the bishops supposed to lead the pope?
Isn't the pope supposed to be the one telling the bishops to get ready?
What a screwed up mess.
Forget about Gruners confusion re: the alleged bishop/pope dilema. Apparently it is the Fr Monarchy who is suppose to perform the consecration. At least that is what he said on Coast to Coast AM!!!! :confused1:
-
YOU have "another long post for no reason." I have answered your questions,
but you have not answered my questions and you wrongly accuse me of the
same. And now I am persecuting you?
It is YOU, Stubborn, who are attempting to persecute Fr. Gruner.
It is you, who are defaming the name of a good priest, and I am defending it.
So asking what he says about the NO and what the errors of Russia are means that I am I defaming Fr. Gruner?
Saying something is fishy because in 30 years, he has completely neglected to directly address many issues including the few I asked for information about means I am defaming him?
Pretty touchy there Neil.
It seems you have not read much of what Fr. Gruner has published in print
or online, but prefer to pass judgment on his works based on what you have
read or heard from those who impugn him. I can't blame you for noticing
their screeds because there is no shortage of them.
You're penchant for asking me questions about what he says belies your
reluctance to read it for yourself.
Therefore, here is a starting list for you, so you can go and find something
firsthand, instead of relying on my poor testimony:
The errors of Russia have been mentioned and exemplified in the
following Crusader issues, among others:
Crusader 18 p. 11
Crusader 45 p. 2
Crusader 69 p. 10
Crusader 38 p. 19
Crusader 59 p. 3
Crusader 78 p. 57
Crusader 71 p. 3
Crusader 15 p. 11
Crusader 95 and 104
Crusader 103
http://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/fatima-for-today-a-response.pdf
http://www.worldenslavementorpeace.com/e7cp4.asp
In many of the articles that have appeared in the Crusader and in other
websites run by the Fatima Center, the errors of Russia are mentioned and
exemplified, for example this page:
http://www.worldenslavementorpeace.com/e8cp8.asp
.. where links are provided for other web pages that concern the
Vatican-Moscow Agreement. That agreement is perhaps the most prominent
of the errors of Russia, IMHO, because (as that page explains) that even in
1986, there were many individuals in offices of the Church who were working
to undermine and corrupt the Church, but try as they may, because off the
Vatican-Moscow Agreement, the removal of these persons was not possible.
Therefore, the use of the Newmass is not seen as the CAUSE of these problems
as much as an effect of the maintenance of this pernicious Agreement. I will agree
with you that the Newmass and its universal application in the Church is a big
problem, but I disagree with you that IT is the objective CAUSE that is most
vulnerable to attack by traditional Catholics who, like you and I, want to
defend the Church!
This is a rather telling principle, in light of the fact that the Menzingen-denizens
desire and work toward a similar 'agreement' with the same modernist Rome
that is still under the sway of this OTHER 'agreement', which see.
It seems to me, Stubborn, that your ignorance of Fr. Gruner's work over the
past 30+ years is the reason you are bent on fractured issues and have not
been able to see the big picture. You are missing certain facts, but when they
are presented to you, you do not realize that your instinctive revulsion of them
is a kind of 'blindness' to which you are subject even if you do not know it.
So it is not a personal affront that I intend but rather some way of giving you
what you need to understand, yet you persistently refuse to do so. Fr. Gruner
has faced your ilk of opposition and heckling for the entirety of his career.
-
Maybe it's all my fault, as usual! I did not caption one part of the page, so
readers can focus on the heart of the message.
And, I messed up on the formatting. It should have been like this:
Newest message from Fatima Center:
Our Lady’s News Release: May 8, 2013
The Pope Is Consecrating His Papacy
to Our Lady of Fatima;
Now Is the Time to Rally Around
Our Holy Father
May 8, 2013
On May 13, on the 96th anniversary of the first apparition of Our Lady of Fatima, the bishops of Portugal will perform a solemn act of consecration requested by our Holy Father. Within days of his election, Pope Francis himself asked Cardinal Policarpo of Lisbon to consecrate his papacy to Our Lady of Fatima. His Eminence asked the bishops to participate. Now, for the first time in history, a Pope is placing his pontificate under the protection of Our Lady of Fatima!
What does this mean? It means we have a Pope who realizes the crucial role of the Message of Fatima for the Church today! It means we have a Pope who has completely and irrevocably repudiated all the decades-long attempts made by key members of the hierarchy to silence and bury the Message of Fatima — and this apostolate!
Above all, it means that you and I must support the Holy Father in every way we can. We have a Pope not only devoted to Our Lady, but to Our Lady of Fatima! This is the Pope who may be ready to do, at long last, what none of his predecessors have done: command the bishops of the world to join him in consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary!
Start reading here:
We must pray for the Holy Father. There are many forces ranged against him and the consecration. And we must let our bishops know that the time has come for each one of them to fulfill Our Lady of Fatima’s request.
We must let the bishops know we want them
to perform the consecration!
The bishops must then let the Pope know they
are ready to perform the consecration!
[/size][/color]
So I ask each and every one of you to say three Hail Marys for the May 13 consecration. Then forward this e-letter to all your friends, asking them to say three Hail Marys and to forward it to all their friends. You can help start a grass-roots prayer crusade. And let your bishop know the time has come for him to join the Holy Father in doing the only thing that will avert the “annihilation of nations” Our Lady warned us about and the only thing that will restore order and sanctity in our suffering Church.
Please, do all you can now! The time to act is now! Write or call your bishop now! Our Lady’s Apostolate has already written to all the bishops. See the letter we sent them (click here (http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/ecarchive/pdf/bishops.pdf)) asking them to join the bishops of Portugal on May 13 in consecrating Pope Francis’ pontificate to Our Lady of Fatima. Ask your bishop to join the bishops of Portugal in this act. We also wrote to 40,000+ priests; see the letter we sent them (click here (http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/eparchive/ep_0513.asp)) asking them to join in this consecration also. We have sent them the enclosed suggested prayer (click here to see the prayer (http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/pdf/ec223_consecration_prayer.pdf)). Let your bishop know you are counting on him to participate in this wonderful act of consecration.
And if you are able, please attend or support our upcoming conference: “Fatima: The Path to Peace!” For information on this and all the works of Our Lady’s Apostolate, see: http://www.fatima.org (http://www.fatima.org).
The Fatima Center
IN U.S.A. - 17000 State Route 30, Constable, NY 12926
IN CANADA - 452 Kraft Road, Fort Erie, ON L2A 4M7
Call us toll-free at 1-800-263-8160 or at 1-905-871-8041
or fax us at 1-905-994-7054 • www.fatima.org • E-mail: info@fatima.org
© 2013 All rights reserved.
This newsletter is intended for subscribers and others interested in the Message of Our Lady of Fatima and the work of Our Lady's Apostolate. If you wish to be removed from our e-mailing list, please let us know. Just send your reply to our e-mail address with “unsubscribe” in the subject line, and we will respect your wishes.
The point of this message is, that here is an opportunity for the bishops of
the world to get warmed up to the idea of making the Collegial Consecration
of Russia as Our Lady requested. Their erstwhile blindness might not be due
to any willful refusal to do what Our Lady requested, but something else, but
whatever it is, the devil is an expert at making your weakness work in his
favor. He tempts you where you are the weakest so you will fall into error
easily, and, actually naturally, in accord with our fallen nature.
If the bishops of the world join the Portuguese bishops in this consecration
of the papacy of Francis to Our Lady as the Pope has requested, then when
they see graces poured out in the wake of that, perhaps they may be more
willing to assist with the Collegial Consecration of Russia to the IHM as Our
Lady requested.
Show me one other priest, anywhere in the world who came up with this
idea, or who even COULD HAVE come up with it? I don't think there is one.
This is the kind of thing that makes Fr. Gruner unique, and to some, this
uniqueness appears "fishy" or "unorthodox" or "strange."
You know, it matters not one whit to Fr. Gruner if the whole world thinks he
is unorthodox, strange or "there is something fishy about him." So long as
the Collegial Consecration happens, he can die in peace, knowing that his
life's work has not been in vain. But it's a fine line to tread, because he
doesn't want to become the celebrity of the year as a consequence. This is
not all about him. Now, you might think that it is. But that could only be a
consequence of your not following his work for the past 30+ years.
Evidence the fact that his name does not appear on the message above.
He is disseminating an announcement for Our Lady, Plain And Simple.
He is not after your adulation. He only wants the world to follow the lead
of the Immaculate Conception, Mother of God and Virgin Most Prudent.
-
I am hoping one of Gruner's supporters will comment on his statement that the Fr Monarchy could have avoided destruction by consecrating France to the Virgin.
Especially those who claim that the consecration of Russia was not done properly by Pius XII-- which(edit) upon further reflection is probably all of u.
-
To further exemplify the "errors of Russia," take a recent article.
(I'm posting this for your convenience. If you want the complete
article follow the link and use your Adobe plug-in to view the
Crusader 104 online.)
Here is a selection from the most recent issue, Winter 2013, in which
are found some quotes from the presentation Fr. did with his
colleagues to the European Union recently:
C.F.:
p. 4
And, as I say, the prophetic content of the Message was
confirmed by a miracle and witnessed by 70,000 people in
Portugal on October 13, 1917. The sun left its place in the sky,
plunged toward the crowd of 70,000 people, many of whom
converted on the spot, in terror at this spectacle. The event was
witnessed 20 miles distant from the Cova da Iria where the event
took place. People who were not even expecting the event
witnessed it. People who did not believe – atheists, skeptics
– who had come to mock the Apparitions, saw the Miracle of
the Sun.
The New York Times reported this miracle. There was even a
Hollywood movie dedicated to the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima
which is being sold to this day on Amazon.com. This is recognized
as an authentic historical event by secular historians.
Our Lady provided this miracle to authenticate Her prophecy
which calls for the Consecration of Russia, and specifically
Russia, to Her Immaculate Heart so that the events which
came out of Russia, the errors that have spread from Russia,
will be rolled back in a most miraculous fashion.
...
And what will happen if the Consecration of Russia
is not accomplished? Well, if the errors of Russia that have
spread throughout the world since 1917 can be summed up
as the abandonment of God and His love; if, as John Paul II
said in his apostolic exhortation in 2003, Ecclesia in Europa
– Europe now suffers from a silent apostasy – then the
miraculous result which will follow from this consecration will
be a reversal of that situation.
...
As Pope Benedict XVI said in his Advent address to the Roman
Curia in 2010 – by the way, this is not me speaking, this is not
some crazy group of traditionalist Catholics speaking, this is what
the Pope, himself, said in 2010: “The very fate of the world
is at stake, moral consensus is collapsing, our institutions
are collapsing. We face an economic, moral, social and
familiar crisis.”
Everyone can see this – not just Catholics – and it was Our Lady
Who said that if Her requests were granted, if Russia was
consecrated to the Immaculate Heart, it would be a triumph for
Her Immaculate Heart.
As Antonio Socci, the great Italian writer and intellectual,
has put it:
“There would be a radical
transformation for the
overthrow of the mentality
which has dominated the
modern world and has
produced this state of silent
apostasy that Pope John Paul
II lamented not long before
his death.”
...
p. 17
Mr. Fontana:
May I add just one thing, very quickly? I don’t know how many
people will sign our resolution; but I hope, obviously, that many
will sign it. And we all know that God moves in mysterious ways.
However, our true objective here is the Consecration of Russia!
There are too many facts here to be considered coincidences:
The apparitions occurred in 1917 and finished in October of
that year, the month when the Russian Revolution started. Was
it a coincidence? I don’t think so. Then we should not forget
that the Soviet Union collapsed on December 8, 1991; so there
must be a link of some sort, because December 8 is the Feast
of the Immaculate Conception. Something particular links Our
Lady to Russia, and therefore, a consecration of such a beautiful
country like Russia would surely harm no one, but would actually
bear very positive fruits for all of us.
Mr. Borghezio:
By the way, today an authoritative colleague of ours reminded
me that today, October 23, is the anniversary of the Budapest
Revolt, in which many Hungarian patriots died..
///Member of
european Parliament, Mario borghezio (left) introduced father
Nicholas gruner (right), who explained to the Parliament
Assembly about our lady of fatima being the oNlY solution for
world peace. here, he explains the necessity of endorsing the
Motion put forward requesting the holy father to consecrate russia.
see the Motion on page 19.
http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr104.pdf ///
18
The Fatima Crusader | Winter 2013
..while fighting for their freedom. It was the beginning of the end
of the Soviet Union, and I wish to remember those martyrs as well.
There is a final question by the journalist Mr. Andrea Costa.
Journalist – Andrea Costa:
I just wanted to know if you are planning to ask for a private
audience with the Pope?
Father Gruner:
I had an appointment to speak with the
Holy Father, it was John Paul II at the time, but that same
day they said that the Pope was sick. So the appointment was
canceled – only to see him very fit and healthy the day after!
In any case, it seems that the Vatican does not want to
hear about this subject! Until now, there has been no single
question about Fatima to which I couldn’t answer properly. This
is due not only to my knowledge of the matter, but also because
the answer often comes to me as soon as I hear the question.
Many are unaware of the fact that the current Holy Father,
Pope Benedict XVI, has created a special Commission on Fatima,
which has been operating at least since 2006. Not a single
member of this Commission has ever contacted me so far, despite
the fact we have printed and published a lot of articles and
essays on this matter.
As I said, the Vatican does not want to hear this truth, because
it goes against the strategy of the Secretary of State. We wrote
As I said, the Vatican does not want to hear this truth, because
it goes against the strategy of the Secretary of State. We wrote
about this openly: In 1962 the Vatican signed an agreement
with Moscow, the so-called “Metz Pact”, a formal agreement
signed by the Secretary of State in 1962 which forced the
Church not to condemn the errors of Russia anymore. Until
now, the Church has not denied or confirmed this agreement,
whose existence, however, we’ve proven indisputably.
Note: the "Metz Pact" is the same as the Vatican-Moscow Agreement.
-
"... the Vatican does not want to hear this truth, because
it goes against the strategy of the Secretary of State."
The Vatican doesn't want to hear it, and there are also a lot of
Catholics not specifically linked to the Vatican who do not want
to hear it, either.
I have friends who don't like to see the effect that reading the
Crusader magazines has on their family members -- they are
not aware of how much they sound like J23's M.R.S. of 1962
when they say "too much gloom and doom."
Who wants to think about the end of the world or any
chastisement?
Who wants to think about the annihilation of nations?
Well, Fr. Gruner is doing everything he can and a few things
nobody may have expected him to do, to prevent the
annihilation of nations, by getting the Consecration done.
And for that he gets all the chin music -- "something's fishy"
"he's not right somehow" "this just doesn't seem right" etc., etc.
What's your idea?
How would you do it?
Oh, I know -- go on speaking engagements telling everyone to
drop the NovusOrdo like a hot potato, and just stay home,
because you might not be able to find a CTLM within practical
distance. Sound good?
Maybe "Stay away from the Novus Ordo but only go to the
Traditional Mass, even if it's the Indultery Mass where
you have to believe that Vat.II is wonderful and there is salvation
outside the Church?"
He's not going to say that, so forget it.
-
Ok, let's see......
QUESTION:What are the errors or Russia?
ANSWER FROM NEIL'S POST: Well, if the errors of Russia that have spread throughout the world since 1917 can be summed up as the abandonment of God and His love; . . . . . then the miraculous result which will follow from this consecration will be a reversal of that situation.
All we can say to that answer is:
:facepalm:
Also, is it any wonder that the Vatican doesn't want to hear it? - - it is no answer at all, it says absolutely nothing specific. If anything, it is NOspeak.
And for that he gets all the chin music -- "something's fishy"
"he's not right somehow" "this just doesn't seem right" etc., etc.
You're right Neil, his answer as to exactly what Russia's errors are is spot on - what was I thinking? :facepalm:
What's your idea?
How would you do it?
Oh, I know -- go on speaking engagements telling everyone to
drop the NovusOrdo like a hot potato, and just stay home,
because you might not be able to find a CTLM within practical
distance. Sound good?
Well let's see...........hhmmmm.........I suppose that at least one time in +30 years, you could expect me to let people know exactly what the errors of Russia are so that the people who listen to me would know the errors when they see them and can thereby avoid them so they don't offend Our Lord by their participation in those errors.
I would certainly have preached the condemnation explicitly of Russia's errors at least one time in +30 years in order to help emphasize the need for my followers to avoid said errors.
Actually, knowing me, I probably would have specifically listed in order, 100s of times, exactly what the errors of Russia are, how they grew, how they've been spread, how one error leads to the next error to the next error and so on; also who spread(s) them, why they offend God and explicitly condemn them all at the same time as well as each error individually - If I only did this one time, then I would expect my followers to let me know that this preaching bears repeating. . . . . . but rest assured I'm pretty sure that I would have done this at least once in +30 years.
Otherwise I would be doing a terrible disservice to the multitude who follow me, whom I would be leaving as ignorant sheep of what they are supposed to be on their guard for, so that they can avoid offending God by their participation, hence their aiding Russia's errors continued spreading.
-
Caution: long post ahead, Stubborn... (I know if there's nothing else you
can say about this you can certainly complain that it's too long. Just try to
remember that at your next general Confession, that when someone gave
you detailed answers you rejected them out-of-hand because you don't
want to hear clear and complete answers, or whatever your excuse is.)
Ok, let's see......
QUESTION:What are the errors [of] Russia? [You had "or" so I presume "of" correct?]
ANSWER FROM NEIL'S POST: Well, if the errors of Russia that have spread throughout the world since 1917 can be summed up as the abandonment of God and His love; . . . . . then the miraculous result which will follow from this consecration will be a reversal of that situation.
All we can say to that answer is:
["we"? Are you representative of someone else, Stubborn?]
:facepalm:
The "answer" was Chris Ferrara's on the occasion of his address to the EU on
the matter of a Joint Resolution in this arena -- but that is of no importance to
Stubborn, apparently.. or not? From your response I have no way of knowing
if you are as contemptuous of that idea as you are of all the rest of Fr. Gruner's
'fishiness' things.
Be that as it may, you can't fault Mr. Ferrara for talking like a lawyer because
that's what he is. His statement (not exactly an "answer" but not entirely
removed from that category) was an "IF...THEN" proposition in logic. It was not
a "NOspeak" non-answer saying "nothing specific" as you claim, below. It
says quite a bit in specifics, but apparently not specific enough for you.
Do you expect Fr. Gruner to have his colleague provide dogmatic definition
in his place as his agent in this? If so, you would be asking Fr. Gruner to
make definitions where the Vatican has not dared to make them. Do you
think (as I might expect from your persistent harangue in this thread) that it
is Fr. Gruner's job to define what the 'errors of Russia' are? Isn't that the
kind of thing that the Pope is supposed to do, define things? Maybe the
problem is you're not old enough to have been alive when J23 made his
M.R.S. in 1962 abandoning the practice of papal definition? Well, I am. I
wasn't there, but I saw the reaction in the world when it happened. And it
wasn't good. JFK was αssαssιnαtҽd 1 year, 1 month and 11 days later.
Perhaps you think this "IF...THEN" exercise in logic is useless. Or perhaps
you think it is inaccurate. Or perhaps you think it's a diversionary tactic. Or
perhaps you think it's a calculated lie. Or perhaps you think it is only true
to the extent of someone's subjective reality. Or perhaps you think it's not
of any use in this discussion. I don't know what you think because you only
have contempt for the statement.
Do you, Stubborn, think the the abandonment of God and His love is not
important? Or, do you think that the abandonment of God and His love is
not taking place in the world today? Or, do you, Stubborn think that the
abandonment of God and His love has nothing to do with the errors of
Russia, Stubborn? Or, are you saying that the abandonment of God and
His love is not to be compared with the errors of Russia?
You let me know. Maybe this is a good starting point.
Also, is it any wonder that the Vatican doesn't want to hear it? - - it is no answer at all, it says absolutely nothing specific. If anything, it is NOspeak.
Who said the Vatican is asking for an answer? Do you presume to speak
for the Vatican in asking what Fr. Gruner thinks are the errors of Russia?
The logic exercise that Mr. Ferrara presents as an instrument to persuade the
EU to sign this Joint Resolution is not any answer to the Vatican's question.
Where would you get that idea? You say, "it's no answer at all...[no] wonder...
the Vatican doesn't want to hear it."
Did you read any of the rest of the article? Fr. Gruner assures us that the
Vatican goes out of its way to NOT listen to him or ask him questions, even
though he is probably the single most informed man on planet earth today
regarding the history of Fatima. Do you know of someone else?
Who is Stubborn's Most Favored Fatima Expert (SMFFE)?
And for that he gets all the chin music -- "something's fishy"
"he's not right somehow" "this just doesn't seem right" etc., etc.
You're right Neil, his answer as to exactly what Russia's errors are is spot on - what was I thinking? :facepalm:
Who said this was Fr. Gruner's answer to your question? Did you notice
that the speaker was Chris Ferrara? Apparently not. Did you notice that
neither he nor Fr. Gruner were attempting to answer Stubborn's question?
Apparently not.
I posted this material for you to get a better sense of what it means when
you hear someone say 'the errors of Russia,' but I did not mean to be
definitive, because that's not my place. Nor is it Fr. Gruner's place. But he
does a lot for us to better understand if we are willing to pay attention.
The errors of Russia are the sins of the world, both positive and by
omission, that prevent the Pope and bishops from making the Collegial
Consecration of Russia as Our Lady requested. And one of those sins
would easily be bad-mouthing good priests like Fr. Gruner, LIKE YOU DO.
What's your idea?
How would you do it?
Oh, I know -- go on speaking engagements telling everyone to
drop the NovusOrdo like a hot potato, and just stay home,
because you might not be able to find a CTLM within practical
distance. Sound good?
Well let's see...........hhmmmm.........I suppose that at least one time in +30 years, you could expect me to let people know exactly what the errors of Russia are so that the people who listen to me would know the errors when they see them and can thereby avoid them so they don't offend Our Lord by their participation in those errors.
Have you ever been to Confession, Stubborn? If so, think back at any of
the sins you confessed and ask if they may have been the kinds of things
that have come to us from Russia, such as lying, cheating, stealing,
adultery, abortion, blasphemy, drunkenness (Russians drink too much,
especially Vodka), or taking sadistic pleasure in someone else's misery
(military men say that Russian war criminals seem to have enjoyed seeing
others suffer) or "piracy on the high seas." (I heard a young girl confessed
that one after having read about it in a book.)
What is the category of moral crimes that comes to the world from the
history of Russia since 1917? Communism? Okay, did you read any of
the material I posted earlier? Like about Communism? Articles in the
Crusader? No?
I would certainly have preached the condemnation explicitly of Russia's errors at least one time in +30 years in order to help emphasize the need for my followers to avoid said errors.
See below.... again....
Actually, knowing me, I probably would have specifically listed in order, 100s of times, exactly what the errors of Russia are, how they grew, how they've been spread, how one error leads to the next error to the next error and so on; also who spread(s) them, why they offend God and explicitly condemn them all at the same time as well as each error individually - If I only did this one time, then I would expect my followers to let me know that this preaching bears repeating. . . . . . but rest assured I'm pretty sure that I would have done this at least once in +30 years.
I'm terribly sorry. I thought you had read my earlier posts. How
presumptuous of me. So if you won't read what I post, why should I
keep posting?
See below....
Otherwise I would be doing a terrible disservice to the multitude who follow me, whom I would be leaving as ignorant sheep of what they are supposed to be on their guard for, so that they can avoid offending God by their participation, hence their aiding Russia's errors continued spreading.
Fr. Gruner is a priest. Why don't you go to confession and tell him under
the seal of the Confessional that you think you have committed the sin of
spreading the errors of Russia but you're not sure, since nobody has ever
described what they are, then tell him a few sins, even ones you may have
already confessed previously and have already received absolution for and
already have done your penance for them. I'm sure he would be very glad
to hear your sincerity and edify you in that context.
Fr. promotes the recitation of the Rosary as a means to overcome all sin
which includes the errors of Russia. He conducts Rosary rallies, where
hundreds of people pray the Rosary together. Is that a mistake too? Is
that "something fishy?"
You are asking me, and I'm trying to interpret for you. I presume you
are of good will and that maybe my inadequacy is what is at fault here.
I am not a priest, nor am I a diplomat. (Surprise, surprise!!) But Fr.
Gruner is very sensitive to his audience. A lot of his articles are
addressed to people that are not of your particular category. If you had
a conversation with him, he would immediately focus on your needs,
your situation, your understanding and your concerns. A priest is meant
to be all things to all people, as Fr. Pfeiffer has said in his sermons. You
really would do yourself a world of good by meeting Fr. Gruner and
asking him your questions. He doesn't bite.
The 'errors of Russia' have different applications to different people.
They apply to governments, businesses, businessmen, priests,
mothers, fathers, students, military officers, politicians, diplomats,
bishops, popes, people of all walks of life and all manner of
organizations of people. So for me or anyone to tell you what they
would mean to YOU might be rather irrelevant for what they mean
to OTHER PEOPLE, which is why Christopher Ferrara's saying that
IF they can be summarized as the abandonment of God and His
love, THEN, the Collegial Consecration would effect the reversal of
that -- which would be what? The attendance to God and
adherence to His love. What does the Our Father say? Thy will be
done on earth as it is in heaven? So we would have the world (at
least for a time, like 25 years) loving God by obeying His
commandments, instead of rejecting God's love by sin and
disobeying His commandments.
Now that would seem to me that it would also include at least the
gradual disuse of the NovusOrdo liturgy and the return of the CTLM,
but that is my judgment and perhaps it is not God's judgment.
Are you, Stubborn, prepared to accept the conversion of Russia
after the Collegial Consecration as Our Lady promised in the
Fatima Message, or, when it happens (as she said it would) and if
it does not meet up with your specifications and/or expectations,
are you going to be prone to deny that it was an act of God
because it failed to wipe out the NovusOrdo Nonsense liturgy, for
example?
It seems to me that Fr. Gruner is trying to be prudent here, because
he does not know if the Collegial Consecration, the subsequent
conversion of Russia and the consequent period of peace will entail
the total abandonment of the Novordien Hootenany Revival. Will it
wipe out Hinduism or Mohammedanism? What about Buddhism?
Are those not as bad as the NovoShmozoThingy?
Post (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=22858&min=50#p4)
YOU have "another long post for no reason." I have answered your questions,
but you have not answered my questions and you wrongly accuse me of the
same. And now I am persecuting you?
It is YOU, Stubborn, who are attempting to persecute Fr. Gruner.
It is you, who are defaming the name of a good priest, and I am defending it.
So asking what he says about the NO and what the errors of Russia are means that I am I defaming Fr. Gruner?
Saying something is fishy because in 30 years, he has completely neglected to directly address many issues including the few I asked for information about means I am defaming him?
Pretty touchy there Neil.
It seems you have not read much of what Fr. Gruner has
published in print or online, but prefer to pass judgment on his
works based on what you have read or heard from those who
impugn him.
I can't blame you for noticing their screeds because there is no shortage of them.
You're penchant for asking me questions about what he says belies your
reluctance to read it for yourself.
Therefore, here is a starting list for you, so you can go and find something
firsthand, instead of relying on my poor testimony:
The errors of Russia have been
mentioned and exemplified in the
following Crusader issues, among others:
Crusader 18 p. 11
Crusader 45 p. 2
Crusader 69 p. 10
Crusader 38 p. 19
Crusader 59 p. 3
Crusader 78 p. 57
Crusader 71 p. 3
Crusader 15 p. 11
Crusader 95 and 104
Crusader 103
http://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/fatima-for-today-a-response.pdf
http://www.worldenslavementorpeace.com/e7cp4.asp
In many of the articles that have appeared in the Crusader and
in other websites run by the Fatima Center, the errors of Russia
are mentioned and exemplified, for example this page:
http://www.worldenslavementorpeace.com/e8cp8.asp
.. where links are provided for other web pages that concern the
Vatican-Moscow Agreement. That agreement is perhaps the most
prominentof the errors of Russia, IMHO, because (as that page
explains) that even in 1986, there were many individuals in offices
of the Church who were working to undermine and corrupt the
Church, but try as they may, because off the Vatican-Moscow
Agreement, the removal of these persons was not possible.
Therefore, the use of the Newmass is not seen as the CAUSE
of these problems as much as an effect of the maintenance
of this pernicious Agreement. I will agree with you that the
Newmass and its universal application in the Church is a big
problem, but I disagree with you that IT is the objective CAUSE
that is most vulnerable to attack by traditional Catholics who, like
you and I, want to defend the Church!
This is not meant to say that the Newmass is NO CAUSE
WHATSOEVER, but just that it is not so MUCH of a cause as it
is an EFFECT of other things such as worldwide sin and the
continued implementation of the Metz Pact (V-M Agmt) and the
Balamand Declaration (from 1993, when the Vatican adopted
the official policy that Russian Orthodox do not need to seek
conversion to the Catholic Faith for their eternal salvation - the
description of which is found in various Crusader articles, and
probably nowhere else on planet earth but for snips and
shards like broken glass, but since you abhor reading the
Crusader, you won't be familiar with the topic, much).
This is a rather telling principle, in light of the fact that the
Menzingen-denizens desire and work toward a similar 'agreement'
with the same modernist Rome that is still under the sway of this
OTHER 'agreement', which see.
It seems to me, Stubborn, that your ignorance of Fr. Gruner's work over the
past 30+ years is the reason you are bent on fractured issues and have not
been able to see the big picture. You are missing certain facts, but when they
are presented to you, you do not realize that your instinctive revulsion of them
is a kind of 'blindness' to which you are subject even if you do not know it.
It seems to me that you have already decided on your Stubborn agenda,
and this discussion about Fr. Gruner's work is a challenge to your world
view, and you are afraid of that. Your comfort zone is fighting for the
Mass of Ages, which is not a bad project, it is rather a very noble cause.
But Fr. Gruner's cause is bigger than that. He promotes the CTLM as best
he can, in context of his work and his ability, but he does not make that
his front row issue because he knows from experience that doing so will
cut him off at the knees for the majority of the world's population, things
being what they are in fact. He builds with available materials. Any good
missionary does so. When you evangelize to eskimos you might need to
say Mass in an igloo. Or to the Amerindians, in a longhouse or in the
Philippines, in a thatched hut or on a battlefield on the hood of a Jeep.
If you come into town with guns blazing to tear out the NovoHeebeeJeebie,
you might get too much return fire. It might be the end of your mission.
For Stubborn, hiding behind the CRT or LCD or VHR or PDS, it's safe
to throw stones, virtual or otherwise, but when you live in a glass house,
it's not such a good idea.
So it is not a personal affront that I intend but rather some way of giving you
what you need to understand, yet you persistently refuse to do so. Fr. Gruner
has faced your ilk of opposition and heckling for the entirety of his career.
If you think this looks like a lot of work, you should have seen it when I
got about 1/2 way through and had to restart my system, and the copy I had
saved was accidentally only the original quote of your post, so I had to start
all over again. My first version was not very polite, so maybe this is for the
best. Penance is good. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
-
I know, I know, it was a "long post." Well there's plenty more where that
came from.
Since clicking on links I provided you is apparently too much work, or maybe
your clicking finger is sore or whatever, here is a segment of one of the
many links I have already listed (I've added bold face type so you can more
easily skim through and pick out things that apply to your narrow demands):
A Troublesome Revelation
The Madonna of Fatima is a troublesome Madonna; She has the fault of ignoring diplomacy, of speaking too clearly. Yes, Her statue is carried round on tour, if the bishops are not against it ... but as far as possible the message is kept in the dark.
Right from the start, the word 'Russia', which Our Lady had clearly mentioned, began to be substituted by the formula 'nations at enmity with God'. Nevertheless, Fatima was a prophecy for our times. In the same year of the apparitions, in 1917, there exploded in Russia the Bolshevik revolution which was to make that nation the standard-bearer of theoretical and practical atheism, imposed in the East and spread by all means, more or less underhanded, in the West. Russia, the first professedly atheist nation, represents the culmination of humanity's apostasy, of that process that was summed up by Pope Pius XII in these words: 'It is an enemy that has become ever more concrete, with an unscrupulousness that still leaves us astonished: Yes to Christ but No to the Church (Lutheranism); Yes to God, but No to Christ (illuminism). And finally the impious cry: God is dead; or even, God never existed (Marxism).'
Our Lady at Fatima was not talking politics. She came to remind the blinded human race of an elementary truth: war is the ugly fruit of rebellion against God. There is an unbreakable link between war and sin, between the apocalyptic war that threatens us and the intellectual and practical blasphemy (atheism) which now rises from the earth to Heaven. Our Lady has mercifully come to warn humanity, which talks of peace but refuses to establish the conditions that make for peace.
...
Conclusion
The light of the Fatima Message, recognized officially but neglected or obstructed in practice, has been thrust under the bushel by the very ones whose duty it was to place it on the lamp stand so that it might give light to mankind lost in the darkness of a Lucifer-like rebellion against God.
Its fruits are before the eyes of all: Russia, as foretold at Fatima, has spread, and is spreading, her errors - atheism, theoretical and practical, social hatred, subversion - through all the world, and even in the Church. One must ask oneself whether armed invasion would not have been a lesser evil than this ideological invasion that perverts its victims' conscience.
People Ask Us:
As a help to understand the preceding article as well as the one by Mr. MacDonald, we present here, part of a speech given by Mr. Hamish Fraser in the United States in 1983. Mr. Fraser is a great Catholic layman and one of the world's authorities on the methods and errors of Communism. In this article he shows that certain "errors of Russia" have been spread not only in the world at large but also among Catholic people as well, including more than a few Catholic priests and bishops. This "internal aggression" of Communism within the ranks of the Catholic clergy helps us to understand why the Pope is finding it so difficult to consecrate Russia on one specific day together with all the Catholic Bishops, as God has commanded them through the Message of Our Lady of Fatima.
Russia's Errors The True Source Of Ecclesial Disorder
A cause of misunderstanding about the Message of Our Lady of Fatima is that when She spoke of Russia spreading her errors throughout the world it was not sufficiently realized that while the Church is not OF the world it is nevertheless very much IN the world and, consequently, that the most effective method of spreading Russia's errors throughout the world would be by spreading them throughout the Church in such wise as to make prominent Churchmen and even certain episcopal institutions integral to the vanguard of the Revolution.
Yet one need only look at the situation in the contemporary Church to appreciate that this is precisely what has been happening in the course of the last few decades.
For while the prevailing disorder in the Church has proliferated with ever increasing rapidity in the wake of Vatican 2, the historical record shows not only that it began long before Vatican 2 but also that this disorder is essentially a function of the extent to which Russia has succeeded in spreading her errors throughout the Church particularly since the end of World War 2 which enabled Soviet Russia to emerge as a colossus astride Europe and as a major world power.
Russians At Vatican 2
It has also been alleged, and never denied, that the Russian observers invited to attend the Council had agreed to come only on the understanding that the Council would make no explicit attack on Communism. And as though to corroborate this allegation and explain the withholding of the intervention of nearly a quarter of the Council Fathers, one of the very first liturgical 'reforms' decreed by the Commission for Implementing the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, on September 26, 1964, was the suppression of the Leonine Prayers after Mass which had been said since the time of Pius XI for the conversion of Russia.
Why No Consecration Of Russia At Vatican 2
Since it seems that an 'explicit guarantee' had been given, even if only by 'indirect assurances', that the Council 'would not be made the opportunity for polemics about Communism',6 this explains not only the 'withholding' of the demand for a restatement of the Church's doctrine concerning Communism, and the suppression of prayers for Russia's conversion, it also explains why Paul VI did not consecrate Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart at Vatican 2 - a Heaven-sent opportunity for doing so collegially - and consecrated merely the world. For nothing could have been more 'polemical' than the collegial consecration of 'Russia', since its purpose is to effect the conversion of Russia from the atheistic ideology with which Moscow has been identified since 1917.
-
Everyone knows you love Fr. to death Mr. Neil, but why do you say that by asking a fundamental question means that I am throwing stones, persecuting and defaming Fr. Gruner?
Ah well, maybe we are finally getting someplace. Allow me to summarize exactly what Fr. Gruner teaches that the Errors of Russia are based on your post:
Russia is standard-bearer of theoretical and practical atheism.....
Russia, as foretold at Fatima, has spread, and is spreading, her errors - atheism, theoretical and practical, social hatred, subversion- through all the world.....
errors of Communism....
Yet one need only look at the situation in the contemporary Church to appreciate that this is precisely what has been happening in the course of the last few decades.
Russia has succeeded in spreading her errors throughout the Church
*This* is what needs a more complete explanation.........the "Errors of Communism" - there needs to be an explanation that explains precisely what these "errors of communism" are, specifically as these errors apply to the above statement: "one need only look at the situation in the contemporary Church to appreciate that this is precisely what has been happening in the course of the last few decades".
Since these errors are *precisely* what has been happening within the NO church for the "last few decades" already, please point out some examples or the fruits of "the errors of communism within the contemporary church", preferably as taught by Fr. Gruner.
-
The forum is still waiting for a supporter of Gruner to comment on the latters allegation that the Fr Rev was caused by the failure of the FRENCH MONARCHY to consecrate France to Mary. :confused1:
-
Everyone knows you love Fr. to death Mr. Neil, but why do you say that by asking a fundamental question means that I am throwing stones, persecuting and defaming Fr. Gruner?
Ah well, maybe we are finally getting someplace. Allow me to summarize exactly what Fr. Gruner teaches that the Errors of Russia are based on your post:
Russia is standard-bearer of theoretical and practical atheism.....
Russia, as foretold at Fatima, has spread, and is spreading, her errors - atheism, theoretical and practical, social hatred, subversion- through all the world.....
errors of Communism....
Yet one need only look at the situation in the contemporary Church to appreciate that this is precisely what has been happening in the course of the last few decades.
Russia has succeeded in spreading her errors throughout the Church
*This* is what needs a more complete explanation.........the "Errors of Communism" - there needs to be an explanation that explains precisely what these "errors of communism" are, specifically as these errors apply to the above statement: "one need only look at the situation in the contemporary Church to appreciate that this is precisely what has been happening in the course of the last few decades".
Since these errors are *precisely* what has been happening within the NO church for the "last few decades" already, please point out some examples or the fruits of "the errors of communism within the contemporary church", preferably as taught by Fr. Gruner.
Stubborn,
The reason that Gruner is so reticent to examine the error of Russia in any concrete way is that any scholastic examination of it will irrevocably call into question the legitimacy of the conciliar antichurch, to which he is still nominally attached and to which he claims obedience.
The error of Russia (note I do not use the plural), of which Marxism-Leninism is merely a compensatory symptom, is the same that may be found at the root of the French Revolution: the deification of Man. The affairs of men fall completely under the purview of the religious and the political; it should then be no surprise that both the French and Russian Revolutions (both of 1905 and 1917) consisted of a philosophy which dealt in both of those terms. In the case of France, there was the establishment of the Cult of Reason as a formal means of replacing Christianity coupled with the subordination of the French clergy to the revolutionary government in an attempt to undermine papal authority, to establish collegiality as the driving force of ecclesiastical legislation and to cement the civil state as being superior to the Church. Likewise, Russia, having no connection to the barque of Peter, saw no need for subversion and embraced atheism outright, deifying Man in his role as a worker in what would be a workers' paradise. This embrace of atheism demoted all religion to superstition and elevated to dogma the philosophy of the socialist state, for which each worker was expected to give his labor, and if necessary his life, without thought to payment.
The point of these elaborations is that the conciliar antichurch, and its profane simulation of sacraments, espouses these same heresies of collegiality, of truth subjected to time and place, and most grossly of the deification of Man evidenced by the would-be minister of God facing the people rather than ad orientam.
-
Will showing up make any money?
I would have given him at least five bucks...
when my wife wasn't looking! :thinking:
:roll-laugh1:
Not sure about this but I heard he was ordained under the new rite instead of the traditional ordinations. Does anyone know for sure, or does anyone even care?
If this was already asked and answered here, sorry I did not scroll through all 14 pages.
-
At first I said something about Father Gruner, but I realized I shouldn't post it because I was not sure it was true, so I edited it out. Sorry.
-
Not sure about this but I heard he was ordained under the new rite instead of the traditional ordinations.
Bro. Peter Dimond says:
First of all, it should be pointed out that “Fr.” Gruner was ordained in 1976, after Paul VI’s dubious New Rite of Ordination was introduced. Nicholas Gruner’s good friend, “Fr.” Paul Leonard Kramer, told me himself that he, Nicholas Gruner and “Fr.” Gregory Hesse were all ordained in the New Rite. Thus, none of them can be considered valid priests.
Link (http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Nick_Gruner.php)
I disagree with them a lot but I think Brother Peter can be trusted to not be lying here. I don't intend with this link to endorse their website in general.
-
Not sure about this but I heard he was ordained under the new rite instead of the traditional ordinations. Does anyone know for sure, or does anyone even care?
If this was already asked and answered here, sorry I did not scroll through all 14 pages.
He was ordained in the new rite of ordination in 1976.
-
Stubborn,
The reason that Gruner is so reticent to examine the error of Russia in any concrete way is that any scholastic examination of it will irrevocably call into question the legitimacy of the conciliar antichurch, to which he is still nominally attached and to which he claims obedience.
The error of Russia (note I do not use the plural), of which Marxism-Leninism is merely a compensatory symptom, is the same that may be found at the root of the French Revolution: the deification of Man. The affairs of men fall completely under the purview of the religious and the political; it should then be no surprise that both the French and Russian Revolutions (both of 1905 and 1917) consisted of a philosophy which dealt in both of those terms. In the case of France, there was the establishment of the Cult of Reason as a formal means of replacing Christianity coupled with the subordination of the French clergy to the revolutionary government in an attempt to undermine papal authority, to establish collegiality as the driving force of ecclesiastical legislation and to cement the civil state as being superior to the Church. Likewise, Russia, having no connection to the barque of Peter, saw no need for subversion and embraced atheism outright, deifying Man in his role as a worker in what would be a workers' paradise. This embrace of atheism demoted all religion to superstition and elevated to dogma the philosophy of the socialist state, for which each worker was expected to give his labor, and if necessary his life, without thought to payment.
The point of these elaborations is that the conciliar antichurch, and its profane simulation of sacraments, espouses these same heresies of collegiality, of truth subjected to time and place, and most grossly of the deification of Man evidenced by the would-be minister of God facing the people rather than ad orientam.
Yes, I agree completely! - but trying to get one of Fr. Gruner's followers steered into this truth is an almighty trial.
Quite amazing actually.
-
A few comments FWIW:
Post #64 (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=22858&min=60#p4):
Everyone knows you love Fr. to death Mr. Neil, but why do you say that by asking a fundamental question means that I am throwing stones, persecuting and defaming Fr. Gruner?
I guess it was the apparent TONE of your question -- it evoked a sort of
contempt or ridicule, which might be based in your conviction that his
ordination is invalid. Do you see how pervasive one seed of thought can
be? There are traditional priests, I guess mostly independent, all over the
world, who have such ordinations and they have no respect from certain
people, mostly sedevacantists (but some claim to not be sedes even though
they are increasingly acting like sedes), because of the date of their
ordination. Our current Pope is among the priests who are so disrespected,
although I hesitate to include him among "traditional priests," unfortunately.
Who in the years before Vat.II could have anticipated this going on today?
Ah well, maybe we are finally getting someplace. Allow me to summarize exactly what Fr. Gruner teaches that the Errors of Russia are[,] based on your post:
Russia is standard-bearer of theoretical and practical atheism.....
Russia, as foretold at Fatima, has spread, and is spreading, her errors - atheism, theoretical and practical, social hatred, subversion- through all the world.....
errors of Communism....
Yet one need only look at the situation in the contemporary Church to appreciate that this is precisely what has been happening in the course of the last few decades.
Russia has succeeded in spreading her errors throughout the Church
*This* is what needs a more complete explanation.........the "Errors of Communism" - there needs to be an explanation that explains precisely what these "errors of communism" are, specifically as these errors apply to the above statement: "one need only look at the situation in the contemporary Church to appreciate that this is precisely what has been happening in the course of the last few decades".
I agree with you that the errors of Communism have spread into the Church.
I have provided multiple links to the Fatima Center's websites, which are
available for free for anyone to go and see for himself -- but you incessantly
demand of me to provide you with the content.
Are you afraid of his websites?
Since these errors are *precisely* what has been happening within the NO church for the "last few decades" already, please point out some examples or the fruits of "the errors of communism within the contemporary church", preferably as taught by Fr. Gruner.
I have given you plenty of links for you to go and see for yourself. Am I your
secretary or something? Please do your own homework.
If you hope to find Fr. Gruner condemning himself or condemning his own
work so that you can then continue to ridicule him, good luck.
Stubborn,
The reason that Gruner is so reticent to examine the error of Russia in any concrete way is that any scholastic examination of it will irrevocably call into question the legitimacy of the conciliar antichurch, to which he is still nominally attached and to which he claims obedience.
Here go the laymen self-proclaimed 'experts' on their agenda of detraction
against the Church of which they claim to be a member. Do you not see
your own hypocrisy? What place do you have to pass judgment on something
over which you have no legitimate authority?
At least you're honest enough to imply to impugn a priest for being "nominally
attached" to that which you see yourself as having been somehow liberated.
For you, being "liberated" is a way of life, the norm, your pride and joy. But
since when has it ever been the norm to find joy in being separated from
the Roman Pontiff and still call yourself Catholic?
The error of Russia (note I do not use the plural), of which Marxism-Leninism is merely a compensatory symptom, is the same that may be found at the root of the French Revolution: the deification of Man. The affairs of men fall completely under the purview of the religious and the political;
I concur with this, except for the singular number, because they are the
words of Our Lady when she said "the errors of Russia," and none of
us, even YOU, JohnGrey, have the right to say Our Lady somehow
got it wrong.
Now, maybe you have an ulterior purpose in doing so, that is to make a
point, but I'm here to warn you that you should not dare to change Our
Lady's words because none of us, even YOU, JohnGrey, have the
right to say Our Lady somehow got it wrong.
Make your point as you will, but do not even give the IMPRESSION that
you are daring to change the utterance of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION,
the Mother of God, the Mediatrix of All Grace and Co-Redemptrix, because
none of us, even YOU, JohnGrey, have the right to say Our Lady
somehow got it wrong.
As such, the deification of man is AN error of Russia, and a very major one,
since it is right up there with the protoerror of pride. But I'm not willing to
go so far as to say it is singular in this category, or THE source of all the
others.
Also, it is interesting to see that you have the order properly in place when
you say, "...under the purview of the religious and the political;" because
the religious comes first and the political comes second, as does the
scientific, for that matter, because scientific authority has no authority to
contradict religious authority.
.. it should then be no surprise that both the French and Russian Revolutions (both of 1905 and 1917) consisted of a philosophy which dealt in both of those terms. In the case of France, there was the establishment of the Cult of Reason as a formal means of replacing Christianity coupled with the subordination of the French clergy to the revolutionary government in an attempt to undermine papal authority, to establish collegiality as the driving force of ecclesiastical legislation and to cement the civil state as being superior to the Church. Likewise, Russia, having no connection to the barque of Peter, saw no need for subversion and embraced atheism outright, deifying Man in his role as a worker in what would be a workers' paradise. This embrace of atheism demoted all religion to superstition and elevated to dogma the philosophy of the socialist state, for which each worker was expected to give his labor, and if necessary his life, without thought to payment.
I can't see anything here to disagree with, and your summary seems to be
a good one (although I don't claim to be any expert on that part of our modern
history), it is rather what you do with your 'elaborations' that concerns me......
The point of these elaborations is that the conciliar antichurch, and its profane simulation of sacraments, espouses these same heresies of collegiality, of truth subjected to time and place, and most grossly of the deification of Man evidenced by the would-be minister of God facing the people rather than ad orientam.
It seems to me you have here truth mixed with error. While the conciliar
Church in some ways has acted so as to destroy religion, that isn't what
it is all about at all times and in all ways. Your term "conciliar antichurch"
might make you feel good but it makes Catholics repulsed. Yet you continue
to think of yourself as Catholic? I suppose that when one takes that step
to put his own judgment above the Church, like the French and the Russians
did in your "elaboration" above, one no longer has any need to be in any
way respectful of the entity one has re-named "conciliar antichurch."
At the same time, I don't fault you for your giving pause to think about these
inclinations of the devil into your ear, because our time is rife with the
temptation to do so. It is rather the easy thing to do, what you are doing.
And what did Our Lord say?
"13Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the
way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.
14How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and
few there are that find it!" (Mt. vii.)
Stubborn,
The reason that Gruner is so reticent to examine the error of Russia in any concrete way is that any scholastic examination of it will irrevocably call into question the legitimacy of the conciliar antichurch, to which he is still nominally attached and to which he claims obedience.
The error of Russia (note I do not use the plural), of which Marxism-Leninism is merely a compensatory symptom, is the same that may be found at the root of the French Revolution: the deification of Man. The affairs of men fall completely under the purview of the religious and the political; it should then be no surprise that both the French and Russian Revolutions (both of 1905 and 1917) consisted of a philosophy which dealt in both of those terms. In the case of France, there was the establishment of the Cult of Reason as a formal means of replacing Christianity coupled with the subordination of the French clergy to the revolutionary government in an attempt to undermine papal authority, to establish collegiality as the driving force of ecclesiastical legislation and to cement the civil state as being superior to the Church. Likewise, Russia, having no connection to the barque of Peter, saw no need for subversion and embraced atheism outright, deifying Man in his role as a worker in what would be a workers' paradise. This embrace of atheism demoted all religion to superstition and elevated to dogma the philosophy of the socialist state, for which each worker was expected to give his labor, and if necessary his life, without thought to payment.
The point of these elaborations is that the conciliar antichurch, and its profane simulation of sacraments, espouses these same heresies of collegiality, of truth subjected to time and place, and most grossly of the deification of Man evidenced by the would-be minister of God facing the people rather than ad orientam.
Yes, I agree completely! - but trying to get one of Fr. Gruner's followers steered into this truth is an almighty trial.
Quite amazing actually.
Rather, trying to get this particular follower of Fr. Gruner steered away from
the Church and onto the broad and easy way of sedevacantism as a normal
state of satisfaction outside the Church where there is no salvation, is an
impossible trial.
-
Here go the laymen self-proclaimed 'experts' on their agenda of detraction against the Church of which they claim to be a member. Do you not see your own hypocrisy? What place do you have to pass judgment on something
over which you have no legitimate authority?
No, I do not see one mote of hypocrisy in believing that the Catholic Faith is integral and inviolable, and to practice it as such. As to what place I have to pass judgement, you must separate a judgement of the state of their souls, and a judgement of the false gospel which they use to damn innumerable souls. I do not know the end of those men, though I can say honestly and objectively that I wouldn't give you a tuppence for their collective eternal rewards, but I follow the exhortation of the Apostle to judge them by what they preach, and as such I do not receive them, nor wish them Godspeed, and I certainly do not grant them assent of authority or obedience.
At least you're honest enough to imply to impugn a priest for being "nominally attached" to that which you see yourself as having been somehow liberated.
Liberated, no. I was delivered from ignorance straight into the immemorial Faith, a mercy and gift of which I was not and am not worthy, made all the more precious in that of all the stains my soul has borne, never once has one of them been to offer obedience or devotion to those jackals which have presumed to sit the Holy Seat as usurpers and deceivers.
For you, being "liberated" is a way of life, the norm, your pride and joy. But since when has it ever been the norm to find joy in being separated from the Roman Pontiff and still call yourself Catholic?
It has been the norm since is has please God in His boundless wisdom to place upon us so great a chastisement as to lose the very anchor of unity which so long safeguarded His Church. I call myself a Catholic, in thanksgiving, precisely because I look toward a day when I shall have so great a treasure as a true Apostolic Lord to which I may submit myself.
I concur with this, except for the singular number, because they are the words of Our Lady when she said "the errors of Russia," and none of us, even YOU, JohnGrey, have the right to say Our Lady somehow got it wrong.
Yes, do not dine on the meat of my discourse, instead quibble over the skin. The point was to show that Russia's errors are but several branches of a singular tree, and from each of which the same poisonous fruit hangs.
Now, maybe you have an ulterior purpose in doing so, that is to make a point, but I'm here to warn you that you should not dare to change Our
Lady's words because none of us, even YOU, JohnGrey, have the
right to say Our Lady somehow got it wrong.
Make your point as you will, but do not even give the IMPRESSION that
you are daring to change the utterance of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION,
the Mother of God, the Mediatrix of All Grace and Co-Redemptrix, because
none of us, even YOU, JohnGrey, have the right to say Our Lady
somehow got it wrong.
Ominous chain-rattling from one who has nothing cogent to add to the discussion. Keep such croakings to yourself. My love of my Immaculate Queen needs no coaching to the color of cultishness for me to treat her merciful admonitions with the proper respect.
As such, the deification of man is AN error of Russia, and a very major one, since it is right up there with the protoerror of pride. But I'm not willing to go so far as to say it is singular in this category, or THE source of all the
others.
Then you are ignorant of history, of theology, of philosophy, of ethics, of law, and of life. The deification of Man is not just an error of Russia. It is the error which has shackled us in the chains of sin and death since the degradation of our first father. Attend the temptation of the Serpent:
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die. [4] And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil."
The deification of Man was the first temptation, the seed of the first and most injurious sin ever committed by man.
Also, it is interesting to see that you have the order properly in place when you say, "...under the purview of the religious and the political;" because the religious comes first and the political comes second, as does the
scientific, for that matter, because scientific authority has no authority to
contradict religious authority.
I place them in this order by degree of importance to man's eternal end. And scientific authority is the exercise of those faculties to which God gave us to understand the world around us. As a matter of philosophical certainty, no contradiction can exist in material reality; if one arises, then there is a faulty premise. Your default reaction, and that of many others hear, is that the premise must always be in the application of natural fact, rather than one of theology of exegesis, despite the admonition of Popes and Doctors that this is not necessarily so. This is a willful ignorance every bit as vainglorious as the pride you accuse of those with whom you have disagreement.
It seems to me you have here truth mixed with error. While the conciliar Church in some ways has acted so as to destroy religion, that isn't what it is all about at all times and in all ways. Your term "conciliar antichurch" might make you feel good but it makes Catholics repulsed.
How right you are, though undoubtedly not the way you believe. I am repulsed by the notion of a conciliar antichurch, all the more so in the fact of its reality. However, as adults should, I do not ignore reality simply because it is distressing.
Yet you continue to think of yourself as Catholic? I suppose that when one takes that step to put his own judgment above the Church, like the French and the Russians did in your "elaboration" above, one no longer has any need to be in any way respectful of the entity one has re-named "conciliar antichurch."
By all means, please tell me in what manner I disagreed with what the Church has taught? Not what Gruner has taught, mind, but what the Church has taught. And you're very correct in that I'm not respectful of the conciliar antichurch, in much the same way that I am not respectful of Islam or тαℓмυdic Judaism or Ba'hai or Protestantism. All speak of a Jesus; none preach Christ and His holy religion.
At the same time, I don't fault you for your giving pause to think about these inclinations of the devil into your ear, because our time is rife with the temptation to do so.
If there is a devil whispering in my ear, then his temptations must be self-defeating, for the Christ he espouses is the Christ of the Gospel, the Mass that he promotes is the immemorial Mass. With an enemy such as that, who needs friends?
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edit: never mind.
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Just curious. How long did it take to write that post? Question to Neil and John.
I guess I should use my computer, but, I am always doing it from my phone.
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I guess it was the apparent TONE of your question -- it evoked a sort of
contempt or ridicule, which might be based in your conviction that his
ordination is invalid. Do you see how pervasive one seed of thought can
be? There are traditional priests, I guess mostly independent, all over the
world, who have such ordinations and they have no respect from certain
people, mostly sedevacantists (but some claim to not be sedes even though
they are increasingly acting like sedes), because of the date of their
ordination. Our current Pope is among the priests who are so disrespected,
although I hesitate to include him among "traditional priests," unfortunately.
Who in the years before Vat.II could have anticipated this going on today?
I am not a sede and have never posted that I was one, nor have I ever posted nor do I have any such conviction that Fr. Gruner's ordination was invalid.
Why, in your zeal to defend Fr. Gruner, do you constantly misdirect the issue by making unfounded accusations against me?
I mean no disrespect to you or to Fr. Gruner, yet the fact remains that his lack of preaching about what Russia's errors are, and his lack of preaching their condemnation demonstrates that either he does not know what these errors are (hard to swallow) or that he does not condemn them.
I reference FE once again, for all it's faults, it is a gauge of liberals who remain followers of Fr. Gruner.
These followers of Fr. Gruner think the Conciliar Church is the Catholic Church and that they need to attend the new mass in order to meet their Sunday Obligation - not to mention a host of other erroneous if not heretical Conciliar inspired lies which can be traced right back to Russia's Error, the very thing Fr. Gruner keeps preaching about. How is such a thing possible?
This demonstrates two things: 1) because Fr. has neglected to preach exactly what the errors of Russia are, and because he has not condemned them specifically, this demonstrates that his followers do not know that the Novus Ordo and it's "mass" are an error of Russia; 2) It demonstrates the need for Father Gruner to get the word out that the Novus Ordo, as well as it's "mass" are an error of Russia. As such, it is to be condemned *for what it is* so that his followers do not partake of said error for which he preaches the need for the Consecration.
I agree with you that the errors of Communism have spread into the Church.
I have provided multiple links to the Fatima Center's websites, which are
available for free for anyone to go and see for himself -- but you incessantly
demand of me to provide you with the content.
Are you afraid of his websites?
Neil,
Other than the few times something is posted about him on message boards, I have not followed Fr. Gruner for the last 30 years, and based on this thread, I can see not much has changed in all that time so there is no reason to start following him now.
The reason I stopped following him after probably only a year or so after he first appeared on the scene in the early 80s is because; 1) he was saying the new mass *at that time* and; 2) he had the constant mantra going 100% of the time about "Russia will spread her errors etc."(which, as you have demonstrated, he still recites today) yet since Fr. Gruner never taught *specifically* what the errors were even back then, he was as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal - not that everything he teaches is useless because I am not saying that.
I am saying that, as your other post included: "Russia has succeeded in spreading her errors throughout the Church." this message means very little to the vast majority because it is nothing more than a vague statement that needs to be elaborated upon as constantly as he repeats his mantra about the errors of Russia and the need for Consecration etc.
People *need to hear* what these errors, present throughout the Church are, so that they recognize them and defend themselves against them.
To just keep preaching "errors errors errors" and "the pope and bishops must consecrate Russia etc. as nausem" without condemning those errors *specifically* has, IMO, proven to be all but fruitless based on posters at FE and even probably CAF - who all together agree that the Consecration needs to get accomplished, while at the same time they defend, support and attend the Novus Ordo and it's "mass".
If you do not understand that there is a serious problem going on between what Fr. Gruner preaches vs the message that gets through to the masses as I just demonstrated above, then I suggest you examine closely the real issue which I just pointed out above.
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Go to Chapter 12....Devil's final Battle......and you will find, in the third secret of Fatima, the part they have not been released yet. talks about the change in the Mass, Our Lady of Fatima is against. In other words, Our Lady of Fatima is against the Novus Ordo. The new mass has been brought into the church by the masonic Archbishop Anibal BUGNINI. And the Novus Ordo Mass is inspired by masonic ideas. And that is why you would ALL do well to ask for the release of of the FULL 3rD secret.
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Post (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=22858&min=70#p3)
Just curious. How long did it take to write that post? Question to Neil and John.
I guess I should use my computer, but, I am always doing it from my phone.
Which post?
Rather, trying to get this particular follower
of Fr. Gruner steered away from the Church and onto
the broad and easy way of sedevacantism as a normal
state of satisfaction outside the Church where there
is no salvation, is animpossible trial.
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verbatim
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http://www.fatimathepathtopeace.org/
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I mean no disrespect to you or to Fr. Gruner, yet the fact remains that his lack of preaching about what Russia's errors are, and his lack of preaching their condemnation demonstrates that either he does not know what these errors are (hard to swallow) or that he does not condemn them.
:facepalm:
I wonder why he spent all of those years inviting guests such as Fr. John O' Conner on his radio show, "Heaven's Peace Plan"? Or John de Camp, before anyone had ever heard of him? Or the author of Behind the Lodge Door?
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I mean no disrespect to you or to Fr. Gruner, yet the fact remains that his lack of preaching about what Russia's errors are, and his lack of preaching their condemnation demonstrates that either he does not know what these errors are (hard to swallow) or that he does not condemn them.
:facepalm:
I wonder why he spent all of those years inviting guests such as Fr. John O' Conner on his radio show, "Heaven's Peace Plan"? Or John de Camp, before anyone had ever heard of him? Or the author of Behind the Lodge Door?
I only wonder why he has never let the world know what the H the Errors of Russia are.
Why his followers still go to the new mass as if participating at one of Russia's Errors will suffice to meet their Sunday Obligation.