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Author Topic: The biggest reason I'm not Sede  (Read 787528 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
« Reply #130 on: November 27, 2025, 05:06:49 AM »
Of course the right distinctions have to be in place, thus if one is not truly convicted of the manifest public heresy of these pretenders they would not be sinning in the subjective sense by ignoring their Catholic-formed conscience - only God can read the heart.
Which is to say that sedes believe faithful trads who live according to the faith but without concerning themselves of the status of popes, probably sin, and on that account sedes believe that "not only is it allowed but it would be OBLIGATORY to separate from their communion."  Which is to say not being concerned with a heretical pope's status either can be or is a sin. 

Well, if that's the reason, that's a ridiculous reason. 



Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
« Reply #131 on: November 27, 2025, 08:05:42 AM »
In their case, everyone wanted to be Catholic and hold the entire faith in subjection to legitimate authority. Due to the nature of the crisis, it made it near impossible for many to distinguish who the true Pope was, so of course their formal intention to remain united to the Church sufficed to hold all those in communion who had that motive. So, even if traveling Vincent was saying "Benedict XIII" in the Canon everywhere he went and the locals where thinking it was one of the other claimants, it would not have invalidated his Masses or made anyone guilty of any sin for being in a purely material error about who the actual Pope was. To knowingly proclaim communion with a manifest public heretic runs contrary to faith. I think we agree on this.

But, with the nature of our own crisis their is an additional factor that alters the dynamic - manifest, public heresy.
So, based on that criteria we have to not conflate examples of pure schism and material schism with those of heresy, loss of office, renouncing communion with heretics, etc.
This is all I am pointing out to you because you made that bad comparison:

I am culling a principle from the Western Schism. Yes, I know it truly did NOT involve schism nor heresy. It was a 25 year struggle with multiple papal claimants.

Thousands of Mass daily, all over Europe for 25 years. Neither during nor afterward have we heard any moral, theological issue that made people during that time think to themselves:

"I can't go to Father Pico's Mass because he believes in Pope Urban, and I can't pray in union with him because then I would be praying a lie to God that I believe a falsehood. Now I have to ask each priest at a Church I go to for Mass to tell me first whose name he puts in the canon at Mass."

It didn't exist. Nobody believed and even raised this as some theological issue, during the debacle and for centuries afterward in looking back at it.

The point being, it was not strictly considered a profession of a particular man. It was merely implied that you wanted to be in union with the pope, whomever he is. The profession is the formal intention.

R&R is an entirely different subject.


Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
« Reply #132 on: November 27, 2025, 10:22:26 AM »
Agreed.

But, it is still a bad example, to use compared to now.

All I am doing is saying what it means, and doesn't mean, at the very moment when you are assisting at a Mass and the priest mentions a pope in the canon. 

It does NOT entail that you yourself are MEANING and SAYING the pope's name. You have to come to grips with that. That is the only purpose I mentioned the historical account surrounding St. Vincent. If people actually believed they were also saying the name of the pope with the priest, it would have been a BIG historical deal. But it was absent in the circuмstances, and absent afterward for theologians to look back on. 

Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
« Reply #133 on: November 27, 2025, 04:11:55 PM »
SkidRow, Please change your use of the term "convicted" to "convinced" or else you are liable to be misunderstood by others. 

I am FULLY behind sedevacantist NOT attending R&R Masses for extrinsic reasons. But theoretically, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with assisting at the moment of the canon where the name of the pope occurs. 

Look at the common denominator:

“As for the one who, during a time of schism, mentions in the Canon the name of him whom he believes to be the true Pontiff, even if he should be mistaken, he does not sin, provided he does so out of reverence for the office and from a desire to maintain ecclesiastical unity. For he intends to name the Supreme Pontiff, and the Sacrifice is offered for the whole Church, under whomever Christ has placed as its head.”

— St. Robert Bellarmine, De Controversiis, Tom. II, De Conciliis, Lib. II, Cap. 19



“During the time of the Great Schism, priests were often bound by obedience to their lawful superiors to mention a particular name in the Canon. If they did so in good faith, following the directions of their bishop or the recognized authority in their region, they did not incur sin or render the Sacrifice invalid—even if the one named was not, in fact, the true Pontiff. For the intention of the priest is to offer the Sacrifice in union with the Catholic Church and its visible head, whom he honestly, though perhaps erroneously, believes to be such.”

— St. Antoninus, Summa Theologica, Pars III, Tit. 23, Cap. 4, § 6



“In the perplexity of a schism, the priest who, following the counsel of his ordinary or the common estimation of learned men, commemorates in the Mass that claimant whom he considers legitimate, commits no fault, nor does he violate the due order of the Sacrifice. The essence of the commemoration is not adherence to a person, but to the See and the unity it represents.”

— Francisco Suárez, S.J., De Sacramentis, Disp. 83, Sect. 3



“In the case of a doubtful pope, it is the common teaching that a priest who, guided by probability and the counsel of prudent men, commemorates one of the contenders in the Canon, does not sin. For he does not intend to separate himself from the unity of the Church, but rather to adhere to it according to his best judgment. The Mass is offered for the universal Church, and the commemoration is made of him who is presumed to be its head.”

— Cardinal Juan de Lugo, S.J., De Virtute Fidei Divinae, Disputatio 16, Sectio 4



“In the time of schism, those who in good faith adhere to one of the contenders for the Pontificate, and during the Holy Sacrifice name him in the Canon whom they believe to be the legitimate successor of Peter, are not to be considered as acting against unity; rather, they intend to profess that unity by rendering due obedience to him whom they judge to be the head of the Church on earth. The merit of this act is founded upon their intention to maintain Catholic communion.”

— St. Alphonsus Liguori, Theologia Moralis, Lib. VI, Tract. 2, Cap. 1, Dubium 3



“It is a sound theological conclusion that during a papal schism, a priest who, in the Canon of the Mass, commemorates the man he in good conscience and with probable reason believes to be the true Pontiff, offers a valid and licit Sacrifice. The essence of the prayer is the unity of the Church under the successor of Peter, not the personal worthiness or even the certain legitimacy of the individual named. The error, if there is one, is one of fact, not of intention against the faith or the Church.”

— Ludovico Molina, S.J., Commentaria in Primam Partem Divi Thomae, Qu. 83, Art. 3




Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
« Reply #134 on: November 27, 2025, 04:38:33 PM »
NO CHANCE OF DELETING OR EDITING THE PREVIOUS ATTEMPT TO POST THIS, so here it is again:

SkidRow, Please change your use of the term "convicted" to "convinced" or else you are liable to be misunderstood by others.

I am FULLY behind sedevacantist NOT attending R&R Masses for extrinsic reasons. But theoretically, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with assisting at the moment of the canon where the name of the pope occurs.

Look at the common denominator:

“As for the one who, during a time of schism, mentions in the Canon the name of him whom he believes to be the true Pontiff, even if he should be mistaken, he does not sin, provided he does so out of reverence for the office and from a desire to maintain ecclesiastical unity. For he intends to name the Supreme Pontiff, and the Sacrifice is offered for the whole Church, under whomever Christ has placed as its head.”

— St. Robert Bellarmine, De Controversiis, Tom. II, De Conciliis, Lib. II, Cap. 19


“During the time of the Great Schism, priests were often bound by obedience to their lawful superiors to mention a particular name in the Canon. If they did so in good faith, following the directions of their bishop or the recognized authority in their region, they did not incur sin or render the Sacrifice invalid—even if the one named was not, in fact, the true Pontiff. For the intention of the priest is to offer the Sacrifice in union with the Catholic Church and its visible head, whom he honestly, though perhaps erroneously, believes to be such.”

— St. Antoninus, Summa Theologica, Pars III, Tit. 23, Cap. 4, § 6


“In the perplexity of a schism, the priest who, following the counsel of his ordinary or the common estimation of learned men, commemorates in the Mass that claimant whom he considers legitimate, commits no fault, nor does he violate the due order of the Sacrifice. The essence of the commemoration is not adherence to a person, but to the See and the unity it represents.”

— Francisco Suárez, S.J., De Sacramentis, Disp. 83, Sect. 3


“In the case of a doubtful pope, it is the common teaching that a priest who, guided by probability and the counsel of prudent men, commemorates one of the contenders in the Canon, does not sin. For he does not intend to separate himself from the unity of the Church, but rather to adhere to it according to his best judgment. The Mass is offered for the universal Church, and the commemoration is made of him who is presumed to be its head.”

— Cardinal Juan de Lugo, S.J., De Virtute Fidei Divinae, Disputatio 16, Sectio 4


“In the time of schism, those who in good faith adhere to one of the contenders for the Pontificate, and during the Holy Sacrifice name him in the Canon whom they believe to be the legitimate successor of Peter, are not to be considered as acting against unity; rather, they intend to profess that unity by rendering due obedience to him whom they judge to be the head of the Church on earth. The merit of this act is founded upon their intention to maintain Catholic communion.”

— St. Alphonsus Liguori, Theologia Moralis, Lib. VI, Tract. 2, Cap. 1, Dubium 3


“It is a sound theological conclusion that during a papal schism, a priest who, in the Canon of the Mass, commemorates the man he in good conscience and with probable reason believes to be the true Pontiff, offers a valid and licit Sacrifice. The essence of the prayer is the unity of the Church under the successor of Peter, not the personal worthiness or even the certain legitimacy of the individual named. The error, if there is one, is one of fact, not of intention against the faith or the Church.”

— Ludovico Molina, S.J., Commentaria in Primam Partem Divi Thomae, Qu. 83, Art. 3