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Author Topic: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018  (Read 7886 times)

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Offline songbird

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Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2018, 04:49:48 PM »
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  • Croix de Fer:  Very well stated.  If there be no pope, then there is no authority.  


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
    « Reply #46 on: March 04, 2018, 07:24:42 PM »
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  • I posted the law.  It talks about getting permission from the pope or the ordinary.  Exactly how would that work when the bishop in question (ABL) didn't even obey his pope and didn't report to his Ordinary?

    This has already been discussed.  There's no exception made for a suspended bishop or a bishop without jurisdiction.  Was +ABL a Catholic bishop?  If so, and if the Old Code of Canon Law remains in force, then I don't see how they were not excommunicated.  Basically, this is the age old battle where the Church asserts that SHE has authority over her clergy rather than secular authorities.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
    « Reply #47 on: March 04, 2018, 07:26:57 PM »
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  • Croix de Fer:  Very well stated.  If there be no pope, then there is no authority.  

    Yes and no.  In periods of sedevacante, the Code of Canon Law remains in force, and priests are still required to obey their bishops, etc.  Absence of a pope doesn't lead to anarchy and a complete free-for-all.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
    « Reply #48 on: March 04, 2018, 07:36:02 PM »
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  • This has already been discussed.  There's no exception made for a suspended bishop or a bishop without jurisdiction.  Was +ABL a Catholic bishop?  If so, and if the Old Code of Canon Law remains in force, then I don't see how they were not excommunicated.  Basically, this is the age old battle where the Church asserts that SHE has authority over her clergy rather than secular authorities.
    Did ABL even assert that they were excommunicated for their actions?  Did he warn them that they would be if they continued the course?  If not, why not? If not, doesn't that imply that he did not believe that their actions excommunicated them? 
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
    « Reply #49 on: March 04, 2018, 08:05:57 PM »
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  • Did ABL even assert that they were excommunicated for their actions?  Did he warn them that they would be if they continued the course?  If not, why not? If not, doesn't that imply that he did not believe that their actions excommunicated them?
    Because he's not fr. Pfeiffer?  ;D
    Seriously, I would think ABL would reserve that judgement for the pope or God.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
    « Reply #50 on: March 04, 2018, 08:16:13 PM »
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  • Because he's not fr. Pfeiffer?  ;D
    Seriously, I would think ABL would reserve that judgement for the pope or God.
    And yet there are quite a few lay persons on this forum who seem to have no qualms about making that judgment.
    I thought ABL was supposed to be the Nine's bishop.  Shouldn't he then be concerned for the welfare of their souls?  If he believed that their actions would excommunicate them from the Catholic Church, he should have warned them, but I don't think there is any record of this.   
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
    « Reply #51 on: March 04, 2018, 09:38:27 PM »
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  • In other news, can you believe Bishop Selway is only 39 years old?

    May God grant him many more years to defend Catholic Tradition. 

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
    « Reply #52 on: March 04, 2018, 09:47:56 PM »
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  • And yet there are quite a few lay persons on this forum who seem to have no qualms about making that judgment.
    I thought ABL was supposed to be the Nine's bishop.  Shouldn't he then be concerned for the welfare of their souls?  If he believed that their actions would excommunicate them from the Catholic Church, he should have warned them, but I don't think there is any record of this.  
    fraternal corrections are supposed to be private.  


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
    « Reply #53 on: March 04, 2018, 09:49:54 PM »
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  • At least, from my perspective, they do not pretend to have any Jurisdiction since they sincerely believe there is no living Pope today to grant any. They are just doing as best as they can in these times of dismal crisis, in order to preserve the Sacraments and the true Liturgy. That is all. The same cannot be said about the Society of St. Pius X though, which recognizes Bergolio as true Pope in word, but acts as he practically did not exist, so they do not recognize him in practice.

    Anyone who studies Canonical Law would know the legal implications of consecrations without papal approval.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
    « Reply #54 on: March 04, 2018, 10:08:09 PM »
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  • The discussion of whether one is excommunicated for bringing a civil lawsuit against a cleric is mute with regard to the Nine since as Fr Cekada reports it was Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX who sued the Nine.  The Nine did counter-sue but only as a legal tactic to defend against The SSPX lawsuit against them.  I believe in that case it is acceptable from the point of view of canon law.  And really besides a negotiated agreement the SSPX had no recourse in an ecclesiastical court due to the suspension.  I don’t think either side would fall under ecclesiastical condemnation for that unfortunate episode.  But the SSPX could have avoided the whole thing if they had agreed to negotiate at the outset but they had abad lawyer who misled them into thinking they could win easily.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
    « Reply #55 on: March 04, 2018, 11:03:46 PM »
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  • A moot point.  Not mute.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
    « Reply #56 on: March 04, 2018, 11:27:30 PM »
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  • This is his Episcopal Coat of Arms:



    .
    This coat of arms is vaguely reminiscent of a reliquary.
    .

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
    « Reply #57 on: March 09, 2018, 07:12:26 PM »
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  • At least, from my perspective, they do not pretend to have any Jurisdiction since they sincerely believe there is no living Pope today to grant any.
    Don't they, also, believe that they have supplied jurisdiction in this Crisis?



    Quote
    Cantarella says:
    They are just doing as best as they can in these times of dismal crisis, in order to preserve the Sacraments and the true Liturgy. That is all. The same cannot be said about the Society of St. Pius X though, which recognizes Bergolio as true Pope in word, but acts as he practically did not exist, so they do not recognize him in practice.

    Anyone who studies Canonical Law would know the legal implications of consecrations without papal approval.
    Keep in mind that without Archbishop Lefebvre, there would be no Bishop Selway or any of the previous consecrations and ordinations of traditional bishops and priests, respectively, before him; nor would there be a real Tridentine Latin Mass, today.

    ABL did what he had to do, without papal approval, and Bishop Selway is the effect of the "Nine" who wouldn't have existed without God giving ABL the grace to preserve the Catholic Faith and Mass.  
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
    « Reply #58 on: March 10, 2018, 01:52:57 PM »
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  • The discussion of whether one is excommunicated for bringing a civil lawsuit against a cleric is mute with regard to the Nine since as Fr Cekada reports it was Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX who sued the Nine.  The Nine did counter-sue but only as a legal tactic to defend against The SSPX lawsuit against them.  I believe in that case it is acceptable from the point of view of canon law.  And really besides a negotiated agreement the SSPX had no recourse in an ecclesiastical court due to the suspension.  I don’t think either side would fall under ecclesiastical condemnation for that unfortunate episode.  But the SSPX could have avoided the whole thing if they had agreed to negotiate at the outset but they had abad lawyer who misled them into thinking they could win easily.

    That's your subjective opinion.

    A counter civil suit is still a civil suit. Old Code of Canon Law is clear that it's forbidden under penalty of excommunication to bring a civil suit against a Catholic bishop.

    Maybe the "Nine" should have listened to Jesus Christ's and St. Paul's words in Matthew 5:40 and 1 Corinthians 6:7-8, respectively.
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Fr Joseph Selway to be consecrated bishop on 22nd February, 2018
    « Reply #59 on: March 12, 2018, 11:07:56 PM »
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  • Did you read Canon 120?  I doubt it.  You don't know what you are talking about.

    Privilegium Fori, of very ancient origin in the Church, has a certain remote sanction in Holy Scripture (1 Cor. 6:1).

    In all contentious or criminal cases clerics are to be summoned before an ecclesiastical judge, unless lawful provision to the contrary has been made for particular places (c. 120, S 1).

    [Fr Sanborn was a cleric.  So +Lefebvre was obligated to bring him before an ecclesiastical court.  Which court would that be Croix de Fer?]

    Cardinals, Legates of the Holy See, Bishops even though merely titular, Abbots and Prelates nullius, the highest superiors of religious societies of pontifical law, and the major officials of the Roman Curia in matters pertaining to their office, may not be summoned before a lay judge without permission of the Holy See; other clerics who have the privilege of the forum may not be so summoned without the permission of the Ordinary of the place where the case is in progress; the Ordinary however, shall not refuse such permission without a just and grave reason, especially if the plaintiff is a layman, and more especially after he shall have tried in vain to effect a compromise between the parties (c. 120, S 2).

    [+Lefebvre was not a sede at the time so presumably he should have sought permission of the Ordinary to file the lawsuit against Fr Sanborn et al.  But he did not for obvious reasons.  But from the forgoing, it is clear that in normal circuмstances the permission would have been given and how much more would the Holy See (if it existed) be obligated to permit Fr Sanborn to defend himself!  Idiot!]