Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: AspiringToHeaven on July 27, 2021, 08:47:16 PM
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Fr. Jenkins discusses SSPX Superior General Pagliarani’s response to the wretched Francis’ TC Motu. He strongly questions Pagliarani’s wild notion that there can be two religions within one Church.
What Catholics Believe July 27, 2021 (https://youtu.be/ewB-92jGkyU?t=605)
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Nice. I'll give this a listen on my drive home tonight
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Thanks anyway; heard all the sede nonsense 100 times here. Why watch a video of the same?
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Thanks anyway; heard all the sede nonsense 100 times here. Why watch a video of the same?
Perhaps you should refrain from commenting in a presumptive and dismissive manner if you refuse to listen to the video. Characterizing it as "sede nonsense" based solely on the title and the priest in question only serves as a warning to others here: avoid SeanJohnson, who judges harshly all commentary which he refuses to hear!
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Thanks anyway; heard all the sede nonsense 100 times here. Why watch a video of the same?
Stop being a turd.
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Says the sede turd!
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Says the sede turd!
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/5f3f0140325739256224c91810eca39a/tumblr_mrdp8uURsU1r4gei2o8_400.gifv)
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Stop being a turd.
He can’t help himself.
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He can’t help himself.
Pooping again?
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That was a great analysis by Fr. Jenkins on Fr. Pagliarani's response. The "two church" theology of the SSPX never made sense to me. How can there be one head for two bodies? It makes zero sense. If there were to be a schism within the novus ordo, would the putative Pope then be the head of three churches? Or four? Morphing the papacy into the head of an abominable hydra of schismatic sects rather than the one head for the one Body of the Catholic Church?
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That was a great analysis by Fr. Jenkins on Fr. Pagliarani's response. The "two church" theology of the SSPX never made sense to me. How can there be one head for two bodies?
It does make sense considering that Christ Himself is, was, and always will be the Head of the Church, the pope can be head of however many churches he chooses.
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It does make sense considering that Christ Himself is, was, and always will be the Head of the Church, the pope can be head of however many churches he chooses.
Based upon what, precisely? He's the Vicar of Christ on earth, meaning the visible head of the Church. And since there is only one Church, there can only be one Vicar. To say he can choose to be the head of multiple churches implies there is more than one church with Christ as its head.
Edit: Here's Session 4, chapter 3, section 3 of Vatican I on the Supreme Pontiff:
3. In this way, by unity with the Roman pontiff in communion and in profession of the same faith, the church of Christ becomes one flock under one supreme shepherd
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Based upon what, precisely? He's the Vicar of Christ on earth, meaning the visible head of the Church. And since there is only one Church, there can only be one Vicar. To say he can choose to be the head of multiple churches implies there is more than one church with Christ as its head.
Edit: Here's Session 4, chapter 3, section 3 of Vatican I on the Supreme Pontiff:
What I meant was, there is nothing to stop him from being head of multiple organizations and the Church at the same time. Certainly what he is doing, to say the least, is altogether wrong, but aside from his own conscience, he can be head of whatever he wants.
ETA: Fr. Hesse, in one of his talks (which I will try to find later) briefly explains it.
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No one is required to believe in the "head of two churches" theory, as expounded by Bp. Tissier de Mallerais in his study on Archbishop Lefebvre's stance on the issue. It's the theory that makes the most sense to me, but since we are ruled by opinions during the Crisis, I concede that my opinion is not the only one.
And....no one is required to believe in the sede or sedewhatever theories either.
Here's Bp. Tissier de Mallerais' study on what he considers to be +ABL's views on the matter, for those very few who here may be interested in a non-sede view:
Is there a conciliar church? - Dominicans of Avrille, France (dominicansavrille.us) (http://www.dominicansavrille.us/is-there-a-conciliar-church/)
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No one is required to believe in the "head of two churches" theory, as expounded by Bp. Tissier de Mallerais in his study on Archbishop Lefebvre's stance on the issue. It's the theory that makes the most sense to me….
Really weird. The “head of two churches” theory is actually quite nutty and utterly non-Catholic, as Fr. Jenkins well explains in the video. One might even call this wild and desperate theory this: a manifestation of diabolical disorientation.
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It's the theory that makes the most sense to me, but since we are ruled by opinions during the Crisis, I concede that my opinion is not the only one...
This, taken together with your present signature, paints quite the picture...
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Really weird. The “head of two churches” theory is actually quite nutty and utterly non-Catholic, as Fr. Jenkins well explains in the video. One might even call this wild and desperate theory this: a manifestation of diabolical disorientation.
But you have to take into consideration that Fr. Jenkins looks at this with the sede mindset. Which is to say that he starts out with an empty chair, and per the sede mindset, the idea of two churches itself is a mere reinforcement of that mindset.
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But you have to take into consideration that Fr. Jenkins looks at this with the sede mindset. Which is to say that he starts out with an empty chair, and per the sede mindset, the idea of two churches itself is a mere reinforcement of that mindset.
Actually, as revealed in multiple episodes of What Catholics Believe, Fr. Jenkins’ mindset is this:
“I don’t dogmatically say that the postconciliar ‘popes’ aren’t/weren’t actual popes; I just don’t see how they could be.”
Hence Novus Ordo Watch et. al. accuse him of fence-sitting on the sede issue.
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Actually, as revealed in multiple episodes of What Catholics Believe, Fr. Jenkins’ mindset is this:
“I don’t dogmatically say that the postconciliar ‘popes’ aren’t/weren’t actual popes; I just don’t see how they could be.”
Hence Novus Ordo Watch et. al. accuse him of fence-sitting on the sede issue.
I could be wrong but doesn't SSPV confirm new parishioners as sedes before they let them in or give them communion?
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I could be wrong but doesn't SSPV confirm new parishioners as sedes before they let them in or give them communion?
Unknown. He’s addressed this on at least one program but I forgot what he said.
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Hope this helps!
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Where does one find the idea of the Pope being the “head of two churches” in pre-V2 theology?
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Father Jenkins is pretty good!
General conclusion: There are two different religions within one Church.
It would mean the sedes are correct about not uttering the name of the newChurch pope during a Tridentine Mass of the real Church.
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Father Jenkins is pretty good!
General conclusion: There are two different religions within one Church.
It would mean the sedes are correct about not uttering the name of the newChurch pope during a Tridentine Mass of the real Church.
No no, contra R&R ecuмenism, he says it’s impossible for there to be multiple religions within one Church. Thus there can be no “Conciliar Church” and Catholic Church under the same tent. What’s called the “Conciliar Church” is actually institutionalized Modernism, which is “the synthesis of all heresies” and thus entirely non-Catholic.
Agreed, Fr. Jenkins is quite excellent.
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No no, contra R&R ecuмenism, he says it’s impossible for there to be multiple religions within one Church. Thus there can be no “Conciliar Church” and Catholic Church under the same tent. What’s called the “Conciliar Church” is actually institutionalized Modernism, which is “the synthesis of all heresies” and thus entirely non-Catholic.
Agreed, Fr. Jenkins is quite excellent.
It seems the "Two thrones, one Church" concept was foretold by Pope Leo XIII.
Original St. Michael Prayer (https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/b009rpMichael.htm)
“These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where the See of Holy Peter and the Chair of Truth has been set up as the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered.