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Author Topic: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism  (Read 1610 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
« on: June 23, 2020, 08:26:26 PM »
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    • Father Jenkins does a great job of articulating the more moderate sedevacantist opinion, that to which I myself lean.  I have called my own position "sededoubtist" but Fr. Jenkins articulates the same principles to which I hold.



    At one point he states that he does not consider dogmatic sedevacantists to be Traditional Catholics because they are usurping an authority they do not have.

    This is almost verbatim the position I hold ... except that I also hold to a variant of sedeprivationism.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
    « Reply #1 on: June 23, 2020, 08:33:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 23, 2020, 08:26:26 PM
    Father Jenkins does a great job of articulating the more moderate sedevacantist opinion, that to which I myself lean.  I have called my own position "sededoubtist" but Fr. Jenkins articulates the same principles to which I hold.



    At one point he states that he does not consider dogmatic sedevacantists to be Traditional Catholics because they are usurping an authority they do not have.

    This is almost verbatim the position I hold ... except that I also hold to a variant of sedeprivationism.
    Yes, very sound. 

    Father Jenkins is a reasonable, honorable man.

    And I did not mean that like Antony did in referring to Brutus. My tongue was where it should be. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
    « Reply #2 on: June 24, 2020, 07:27:24 AM »
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    • But not so moderate, reasonable nor honorable when discussing the Thuc consecrations.  
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
    « Reply #3 on: June 24, 2020, 08:22:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 23, 2020, 08:26:26 PM
    At one point he states that he does not consider dogmatic sedevacantists to be Traditional Catholics because they are usurping an authority they do not have.
    .
    I don't understand. If it is a usurpation of authority to say that someone has to agree with your opinion in order to be Catholic, how is Fr. Jenkins not doing exactly the same thing when he says that dogmatic sedevacantists are not Catholic because of what they believe? How is he not usurping authority in deciding who is traditional Catholic and who isn't?
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    Online Cera

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    Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
    « Reply #4 on: June 24, 2020, 10:10:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on June 24, 2020, 08:22:00 AM
    .
    I don't understand. If it is a usurpation of authority to say that someone has to agree with your opinion in order to be Catholic, how is Fr. Jenkins not doing exactly the same thing when he says that dogmatic sedevacantists are not Catholic because of what they believe? How is he not usurping authority in deciding who is traditional Catholic and who isn't?
    He is referring to God's system of authority, which is top - down.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
    « Reply #5 on: June 24, 2020, 02:10:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cera on June 24, 2020, 10:10:06 AM
    He is referring to God's system of authority, which is top - down.
    .
    Okay, I seem to be missing something here. What principle is he using to determine that dogmatic sedes are not traditional Catholics?
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
    « Reply #6 on: June 24, 2020, 03:19:32 PM »
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    • Okay, I found the relevant place in the video. It's a little after the 23-minute mark. The quote is as follows:
    .

    Quote
    Fr. Jenkins: There are some sedevacantists who are dogmatic sedevacantists. I don't even consider them to be traditional Catholics. There are some who will say "John Paul 2 was no pope. I can prove it. It's a matter of faith, and if you believe he was the pope you're not a Catholic." I don't even consider those people to be traditional Catholics at all, because they are usurping authority they don't have.
    .
    This is madness. So the dogmatic sedevacantists are not traditional Catholics because they say people have to agree with them or they are not Catholic. But Fr. Jenkins does not consider them to be Catholic because they in turn do not agree with his position of sedevacantism being an opinion.
    .
    I'm not saying I'm a dogmatic sedevacantist, as I probably hold to the "opinion" version of sedevacantism the way he does. So before someone condemns me of doing what I accuse Fr. Jenkins of doing, which is what he in turn accuses the dogmatic sedes of doing, I hasten to say that I do not therefore consider Fr. Jenkins to be not a traditional Catholic. My point is just that his logic is an absurdity and that hoists himself on his own petard.
    .
    Being too strong against dogmatism inevitably leads to ... more dogmatism.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
    « Reply #7 on: June 24, 2020, 03:37:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on June 24, 2020, 03:19:32 PM
    Okay, I found the relevant place in the video. It's a little after the 23-minute mark. The quote is as follows:
    .
    .
    This is madness. So the dogmatic sedevacantists are not traditional Catholics because they say people have to agree with them or they are not Catholic. But Fr. Jenkins does not consider them to be Catholic because they in turn do not agree with his position of sedevacantism being an opinion.
    .
    I'm not saying I'm a dogmatic sedevacantist, as I probably hold to the "opinion" version of sedevacantism the way he does. So before someone condemns me of doing what I accuse Fr. Jenkins of doing, which is what he in turn accuses the dogmatic sedes of doing, I hasten to say that I do not therefore consider Fr. Jenkins to be not a traditional Catholic. My point is just that his logic is an absurdity and that hoists himself on his own petard.
    .
    Being too strong against dogmatism inevitably leads to ... more dogmatism.
    Sedeism is an opinion, dogmatic sede's raise this opinion to the status of dogma, so the reason why he does not consider them to be Catholic is because Catholics do not do that. 
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
    « Reply #8 on: June 24, 2020, 03:46:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on June 24, 2020, 03:37:29 PM
    Sedeism is an opinion, dogmatic sede's raise this opinion to the status of dogma, so the reason why he does not consider them to be Catholic is because Catholics do not do that.
    .
    The problem here is that Fr. Jenkins is raising his opinion to the status of dogma, inasmuch as he says that people who go against his analysis (dogmatic sedes) are not traditional Catholics. It would be reasonable to say he disagrees with them or that they are wrong, but by saying they are not traditional Catholics he is usurping authority he himself does not have.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
    « Reply #9 on: June 24, 2020, 03:52:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on June 24, 2020, 03:46:31 PM
    .
    The problem here is that Fr. Jenkins is raising his opinion to the status of dogma, inasmuch as he says that people who go against his analysis (dogmatic sedes) are not traditional Catholics. It would be reasonable to say he disagrees with them or that they are wrong, but by saying they are not traditional Catholics he is usurping authority he himself does not have.
    And as I implied up thread, he has no issue usurping authority when judging the Thuc consecrations as invalid.  As a result of this, he refuses communion to anyone associated with/sympathetic to the Thuc-line clergy.  I call that hypocrisy.  
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
    « Reply #10 on: June 24, 2020, 04:18:59 PM »
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    • Talk about being judgmental!  

    We have had anti-popes in the Church before, what's the diff?
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    Online Cera

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    Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
    « Reply #11 on: June 24, 2020, 06:27:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on June 24, 2020, 04:18:59 PM
    Talk about being judgmental!  

    We have had anti-popes in the Church before, what's the diff?
    I'm glad you brought this up. What is the difference between saying:
    1. The "popes" since 1958 have been anti-Popes because Siri was elected and accepted, threatened and forced into a non-binding withdrawal. The Church is in eclipse. The Pope is in hiding.
    and
    2. The Chair of Peter has been vacant since 1958 (may vary).
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
    « Reply #12 on: June 24, 2020, 08:18:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on June 24, 2020, 08:22:00 AM
    Quote from: Ladislaus on June 23, 2020, 08:26:26 PM
    At one point he states that he does not consider dogmatic sedevacantists to be Traditional Catholics because they are usurping an authority they do not have.

    I don't understand. If it is a usurpation of authority to say that someone has to agree with your opinion in order to be Catholic, how is Fr. Jenkins not doing exactly the same thing when he says that dogmatic sedevacantists are not Catholic because of what they believe? How is he not usurping authority in deciding who is traditional Catholic and who isn't?

    I agree, Yeti. Those who consider themselves non-dogmatic XYZ's but still condemn those evil dogmatic XYZ's, appear to be disingenuous hypocrites.

    Given the case of those confused contemporaries who refuse to condemn the robber-conciliar heretics, and rather maintain communion with them, albeit in lip service only; these deny the dogma, that the Church professes one true Faith, in actu. Jenkins would have to argue against such or whatever else reasoning and abstain from condemning opponents of his opinion, which in no way is more authorized than any other opinion.

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
    « Reply #13 on: June 25, 2020, 05:59:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on June 24, 2020, 03:46:31 PM
    .
    The problem here is that Fr. Jenkins is raising his opinion to the status of dogma, inasmuch as he says that people who go against his analysis (dogmatic sedes) are not traditional Catholics. It would be reasonable to say he disagrees with them or that they are wrong, but by saying they are not traditional Catholics he is usurping authority he himself does not have.
    I did not take it that way. He said: "I don't even consider those people to be traditional Catholics at all, because they are usurping authority they don't have".

    He is correct, they are usurping authority that they don't have, which is something that traditional Catholics simply don't do.

    He is saying that dogmatic sedes continue to insist that their opinion is taught by or is a teaching or part of a teaching of the Church - even after being corrected, those who do such a thing he does not consider to be traditional Catholics at all - he has this opinion because it is something that traditional Catholics simply don't do, not because it is a fact or certain. He is only offering his opinion, not making an official proclamation. As such, he is not usurping any authority.  

    He is only offering his opinion, because he says "I do not even consider", he does not say "I'm telling you they are not Catholic", nor does he site any canon or teaching, nor is he in any way communicating that they are in fact, positively not traditional Catholics.

         

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
    « Reply #14 on: June 25, 2020, 07:17:11 AM »
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    • You'll note that he didn't say the dogmatic sedes weren't Catholic, just that they weren't Traditional Catholics.  We'd have to ask him what he meant by that and what his definition of Traditional Catholic is.  Traditional Catholics is a bit of a slippery term which can mean different things to different people.

    And, no obviously, I don't agree with his position on the Thuc bishops.  That's just because I don't agree with his conclusion that they are doubtful.  But let's say you did agree.  If, for instance, you had some faithful who received the Sacraments from someone ordained by, say, one "Bishop" Ambrose Moran, wouldn't you tell the faithful that they needed to re-confess sins that had been confessed to that man?  Problem is that the +Thuc lines through +des Lauriers and +Carmona are unquestionably valid.
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