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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2020, 08:26:26 PM

Title: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2020, 08:26:26 PM
Father Jenkins does a great job of articulating the more moderate sedevacantist opinion, that to which I myself lean.  I have called my own position "sededoubtist" but Fr. Jenkins articulates the same principles to which I hold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H633jb0YX2c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H633jb0YX2c)

At one point he states that he does not consider dogmatic sedevacantists to be Traditional Catholics because they are usurping an authority they do not have.

This is almost verbatim the position I hold ... except that I also hold to a variant of sedeprivationism.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: DecemRationis on June 23, 2020, 08:33:11 PM
Father Jenkins does a great job of articulating the more moderate sedevacantist opinion, that to which I myself lean.  I have called my own position "sededoubtist" but Fr. Jenkins articulates the same principles to which I hold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H633jb0YX2c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H633jb0YX2c)

At one point he states that he does not consider dogmatic sedevacantists to be Traditional Catholics because they are usurping an authority they do not have.

This is almost verbatim the position I hold ... except that I also hold to a variant of sedeprivationism.
Yes, very sound. 

Father Jenkins is a reasonable, honorable man.

And I did not mean that like Antony did in referring to Brutus. My tongue was where it should be. 
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: 2Vermont on June 24, 2020, 07:27:24 AM
But not so moderate, reasonable nor honorable when discussing the Thuc consecrations.  
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Yeti on June 24, 2020, 08:22:00 AM
At one point he states that he does not consider dogmatic sedevacantists to be Traditional Catholics because they are usurping an authority they do not have.
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I don't understand. If it is a usurpation of authority to say that someone has to agree with your opinion in order to be Catholic, how is Fr. Jenkins not doing exactly the same thing when he says that dogmatic sedevacantists are not Catholic because of what they believe? How is he not usurping authority in deciding who is traditional Catholic and who isn't?
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Cera on June 24, 2020, 10:10:06 AM
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I don't understand. If it is a usurpation of authority to say that someone has to agree with your opinion in order to be Catholic, how is Fr. Jenkins not doing exactly the same thing when he says that dogmatic sedevacantists are not Catholic because of what they believe? How is he not usurping authority in deciding who is traditional Catholic and who isn't?
He is referring to God's system of authority, which is top - down.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Yeti on June 24, 2020, 02:10:17 PM
He is referring to God's system of authority, which is top - down.
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Okay, I seem to be missing something here. What principle is he using to determine that dogmatic sedes are not traditional Catholics?
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Yeti on June 24, 2020, 03:19:32 PM
Okay, I found the relevant place in the video. It's a little after the 23-minute mark. The quote is as follows:
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Quote
Fr. Jenkins: There are some sedevacantists who are dogmatic sedevacantists. I don't even consider them to be traditional Catholics. There are some who will say "John Paul 2 was no pope. I can prove it. It's a matter of faith, and if you believe he was the pope you're not a Catholic." I don't even consider those people to be traditional Catholics at all, because they are usurping authority they don't have.
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This is madness. So the dogmatic sedevacantists are not traditional Catholics because they say people have to agree with them or they are not Catholic. But Fr. Jenkins does not consider them to be Catholic because they in turn do not agree with his position of sedevacantism being an opinion.
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I'm not saying I'm a dogmatic sedevacantist, as I probably hold to the "opinion" version of sedevacantism the way he does. So before someone condemns me of doing what I accuse Fr. Jenkins of doing, which is what he in turn accuses the dogmatic sedes of doing, I hasten to say that I do not therefore consider Fr. Jenkins to be not a traditional Catholic. My point is just that his logic is an absurdity and that hoists himself on his own petard.
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Being too strong against dogmatism inevitably leads to ... more dogmatism.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Stubborn on June 24, 2020, 03:37:29 PM
Okay, I found the relevant place in the video. It's a little after the 23-minute mark. The quote is as follows:
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This is madness. So the dogmatic sedevacantists are not traditional Catholics because they say people have to agree with them or they are not Catholic. But Fr. Jenkins does not consider them to be Catholic because they in turn do not agree with his position of sedevacantism being an opinion.
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I'm not saying I'm a dogmatic sedevacantist, as I probably hold to the "opinion" version of sedevacantism the way he does. So before someone condemns me of doing what I accuse Fr. Jenkins of doing, which is what he in turn accuses the dogmatic sedes of doing, I hasten to say that I do not therefore consider Fr. Jenkins to be not a traditional Catholic. My point is just that his logic is an absurdity and that hoists himself on his own petard.
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Being too strong against dogmatism inevitably leads to ... more dogmatism.
Sedeism is an opinion, dogmatic sede's raise this opinion to the status of dogma, so the reason why he does not consider them to be Catholic is because Catholics do not do that. 
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Yeti on June 24, 2020, 03:46:31 PM
Sedeism is an opinion, dogmatic sede's raise this opinion to the status of dogma, so the reason why he does not consider them to be Catholic is because Catholics do not do that.
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The problem here is that Fr. Jenkins is raising his opinion to the status of dogma, inasmuch as he says that people who go against his analysis (dogmatic sedes) are not traditional Catholics. It would be reasonable to say he disagrees with them or that they are wrong, but by saying they are not traditional Catholics he is usurping authority he himself does not have.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: 2Vermont on June 24, 2020, 03:52:27 PM
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The problem here is that Fr. Jenkins is raising his opinion to the status of dogma, inasmuch as he says that people who go against his analysis (dogmatic sedes) are not traditional Catholics. It would be reasonable to say he disagrees with them or that they are wrong, but by saying they are not traditional Catholics he is usurping authority he himself does not have.
And as I implied up thread, he has no issue usurping authority when judging the Thuc consecrations as invalid.  As a result of this, he refuses communion to anyone associated with/sympathetic to the Thuc-line clergy.  I call that hypocrisy.  
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: songbird on June 24, 2020, 04:18:59 PM
Talk about being judgmental!  

We have had anti-popes in the Church before, what's the diff?
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Cera on June 24, 2020, 06:27:00 PM
Talk about being judgmental!  

We have had anti-popes in the Church before, what's the diff?
I'm glad you brought this up. What is the difference between saying:
1. The "popes" since 1958 have been anti-Popes because Siri was elected and accepted, threatened and forced into a non-binding withdrawal. The Church is in eclipse. The Pope is in hiding.
and
2. The Chair of Peter has been vacant since 1958 (may vary).
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Struthio on June 24, 2020, 08:18:02 PM
At one point he states that he does not consider dogmatic sedevacantists to be Traditional Catholics because they are usurping an authority they do not have.

I don't understand. If it is a usurpation of authority to say that someone has to agree with your opinion in order to be Catholic, how is Fr. Jenkins not doing exactly the same thing when he says that dogmatic sedevacantists are not Catholic because of what they believe? How is he not usurping authority in deciding who is traditional Catholic and who isn't?

I agree, Yeti. Those who consider themselves non-dogmatic XYZ's but still condemn those evil dogmatic XYZ's, appear to be disingenuous hypocrites.

Given the case of those confused contemporaries who refuse to condemn the robber-conciliar heretics, and rather maintain communion with them, albeit in lip service only; these deny the dogma, that the Church professes one true Faith, in actu. Jenkins would have to argue against such or whatever else reasoning and abstain from condemning opponents of his opinion, which in no way is more authorized than any other opinion.

Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Stubborn on June 25, 2020, 05:59:17 AM
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The problem here is that Fr. Jenkins is raising his opinion to the status of dogma, inasmuch as he says that people who go against his analysis (dogmatic sedes) are not traditional Catholics. It would be reasonable to say he disagrees with them or that they are wrong, but by saying they are not traditional Catholics he is usurping authority he himself does not have.
I did not take it that way. He said: "I don't even consider those people to be traditional Catholics at all, because they are usurping authority they don't have".

He is correct, they are usurping authority that they don't have, which is something that traditional Catholics simply don't do.

He is saying that dogmatic sedes continue to insist that their opinion is taught by or is a teaching or part of a teaching of the Church - even after being corrected, those who do such a thing he does not consider to be traditional Catholics at all - he has this opinion because it is something that traditional Catholics simply don't do, not because it is a fact or certain. He is only offering his opinion, not making an official proclamation. As such, he is not usurping any authority.  

He is only offering his opinion, because he says "I do not even consider", he does not say "I'm telling you they are not Catholic", nor does he site any canon or teaching, nor is he in any way communicating that they are in fact, positively not traditional Catholics.

     

Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 25, 2020, 07:17:11 AM
You'll note that he didn't say the dogmatic sedes weren't Catholic, just that they weren't Traditional Catholics.  We'd have to ask him what he meant by that and what his definition of Traditional Catholic is.  Traditional Catholics is a bit of a slippery term which can mean different things to different people.

And, no obviously, I don't agree with his position on the Thuc bishops.  That's just because I don't agree with his conclusion that they are doubtful.  But let's say you did agree.  If, for instance, you had some faithful who received the Sacraments from someone ordained by, say, one "Bishop" Ambrose Moran, wouldn't you tell the faithful that they needed to re-confess sins that had been confessed to that man?  Problem is that the +Thuc lines through +des Lauriers and +Carmona are unquestionably valid.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 25, 2020, 07:18:37 AM
I don't understand. If it is a usurpation of authority to say that someone has to agree with your opinion in order to be Catholic, how is Fr. Jenkins not doing exactly the same thing when he says that dogmatic sedevacantists are not Catholic because of what they believe? How is he not usurping authority in deciding who is traditional Catholic and who isn't?

Uhm, he did not say they are not Catholic, but that they are not TRADTIONAL Catholic.  To my knowledge, he does not refuse the Sacraments to people from dogmatic sedevacantist chapels ... unless there's also a question of the +Thuc line, but that's for a different reason (that I don't agree with).  One would have to ask him precisely what he meant by that, since the term Traditional Catholics has about as many definitions as you have Traditional Catholics.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: 2Vermont on June 25, 2020, 07:57:46 AM
Lad, what other Catholic would be truly Catholic?  
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: 2Vermont on June 25, 2020, 08:00:27 AM
You'll note that he didn't say the dogmatic sedes weren't Catholic, just that they weren't Traditional Catholics.  We'd have to ask him what he meant by that and what his definition of Traditional Catholic is.  Traditional Catholics is a bit of a slippery term which can mean different things to different people.

And, no obviously, I don't agree with his position on the Thuc bishops.  That's just because I don't agree with his conclusion that they are doubtful.  But let's say you did agree.  If, for instance, you had some faithful who received the Sacraments from someone ordained by, say, one "Bishop" Ambrose Moran, wouldn't you tell the faithful that they needed to re-confess sins that had been confessed to that man?  Problem is that the +Thuc lines through +des Lauriers and +Carmona are unquestionably valid.
Problem is....it is my understanding that even if you've been going to an unquestionably certain priest for confession, if that priest was sympathetic to the Thuc line, you still couldn't (knowingly) receive communion at an SSPV chapel.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Struthio on June 25, 2020, 09:50:33 AM
I don't understand. If it is a usurpation of authority to say that someone has to agree with your opinion in order to be Catholic, how is Fr. Jenkins not doing exactly the same thing when he says that dogmatic sedevacantists are not Catholic because of what they believe? How is he not usurping authority in deciding who is traditional Catholic and who isn't?

Uhm, he did not say they are not Catholic, but that they are not TRADTIONAL Catholic.  To my knowledge, he does not refuse the Sacraments to people from dogmatic sedevacantist chapels ... unless there's also a question of the +Thuc line, but that's for a different reason (that I don't agree with).  One would have to ask him precisely what he meant by that, since the term Traditional Catholics has about as many definitions as you have Traditional Catholics.


The author of the quote you're commenting on is not Struthio, but Yeti, see Reply #3.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 25, 2020, 10:35:03 AM
Lad, what other Catholic would be truly Catholic?  

Well, maybe "truly" Catholic, in a sense, but I am not of the mindset that there are no Catholics in the Novus Ordo and that they're all heretics by virtue of the fact.  Many of them are in material error only.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 25, 2020, 10:46:56 AM
Uhm, he did not say they are not Catholic, but that they are not TRADTIONAL Catholic.  To my knowledge, he does not refuse the Sacraments to people from dogmatic sedevacantist chapels ... unless there's also a question of the +Thuc line, but that's for a different reason (that I don't agree with).  One would have to ask him precisely what he meant by that, since the term Traditional Catholics has about as many definitions as you have Traditional Catholics.



The author of the quote you're commenting on is not Struthio, but Yeti, see Reply #3.

Sorry if I got that wrong.  Looked like it was quoting you.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: MMagdala on June 27, 2020, 02:57:29 AM
Where is Fr. Jenkins assigned?
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Cryptinox on June 27, 2020, 02:36:08 PM
Where is Fr. Jenkins assigned?
Immaculate Conception Church in Norwood, Ohio
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Argentino on June 27, 2020, 06:59:43 PM
This video was from over 6 years ago. He may have changed his thinking somewhat since then.

I think it was last year that Fr. Cekada wrote an article saying that he sees evidence that once Bp. Kelly dies, the St. Piux V Society is likely to be not as harsh against the Thuc-line.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 27, 2020, 07:13:33 PM
This video was from over 6 years ago. He may have changed his thinking somewhat since then.

I think it was last year that Fr. Cekada wrote an article saying that he sees evidence that once Bp. Kelly dies, the St. Piux V Society is likely to be not as harsh against the Thuc-line.

I've seen more recent statement where Fr. Jenkins articulates a similar position re: sedevacantism.  I agree that Bishop Kelly has been the strongest impetus against the Thuc line.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Argentino on June 30, 2020, 09:00:28 AM
I've seen more recent statement where Fr. Jenkins articulates a similar position re: sedevacantism.  I agree that Bishop Kelly has been the strongest impetus against the Thuc line.

This past Sunday I assisted at an Oyster Bay Mass. The priest included in his announcements, for the sake of anyone new, that nobody attending the Novus Ordo in English or Latin can go to Communion. There was no hint of forbidding those who attended Thuc-line Sacraments. This appears to be easing up.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: 2Vermont on June 30, 2020, 09:33:08 AM
This past Sunday I assisted at an Oyster Bay Mass. The priest included in his announcements, for the sake of anyone new, that nobody attending the Novus Ordo in English or Latin can go to Communion. There was no hint of forbidding those who attended Thuc-line Sacraments. This appears to be easing up.
I do not believe this is the case at Round Top, NY.  Of course, that is where Bishop Kelly resides.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 30, 2020, 09:38:49 AM
This past Sunday I assisted at an Oyster Bay Mass. The priest included in his announcements, for the sake of anyone new, that nobody attending the Novus Ordo in English or Latin can go to Communion. There was no hint of forbidding those who attended Thuc-line Sacraments. This appears to be easing up.

That part about forbidding communion to those who attend the NOM appears to be new, as I've not heard that before from SSPV ... at least not publicly announced.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: Argentino on June 30, 2020, 01:03:32 PM
I do not believe this is the case at Round Top, NY.  Of course, that is where Bishop Kelly resides.

It very well may be the case now for their whole organization.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: 2Vermont on June 30, 2020, 02:38:00 PM
It very well may be the case now for their whole organization.
I doubt that.
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: tdrev123 on June 30, 2020, 10:04:31 PM
I doubt that.
I think it is, since Bishop Carroll has taken control over SSPV the thuc issue has already been eased up.  This thread is actually about a year late in discussing the issue.  On SSPV bulletins and websites they said no feeneyites or thuc ites can receive communion.  Now I only see about novus ordo,annulment issues etc.  
Title: Re: Fr. Jenkins articulates Moderate (aka Opinionist) Sedevacantism
Post by: 2Vermont on July 01, 2020, 06:17:45 AM
I think it is, since Bishop Carroll has taken control over SSPV the thuc issue has already been eased up.  This thread is actually about a year late in discussing the issue.  On SSPV bulletins and websites they said no feeneyites or thuc ites can receive communion.  Now I only see about novus ordo,annulment issues etc.  
Well, that would be a change in the right direction.  However, that is not what I last heard about Round Top, NY where there is a seminary and where Bishop Kelly resides.  I will try to find out the most recent practice there by asking those I know who have assisted there on occasion.