Author Topic: Fr. Gruner (Read 5483 times)

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #30 on:** May 28, 2012, 03:29:49 PM »

Quote from: chaz89

Quote from: Thorn
Non-Catholics have a problem with how some Catholics treat Mary and sometimes with good reason. We must be extremely careful in how we present the facts of Catholicism to them and not add nor subtract anything. Since Fatima is not an article of Faith, we must tell them that, if they ask & allow them to either believe or not. You may give your opinion & how you feel, but must be careful to say that it is just your opinion. Our goal is to bring them into the church and utimately to heaven where all our questions will be answered.

How's 40+ years of post conciliar lunacy, the church's openness to the world, and the church downplaying Mary's role with the rosary being a victim of the council. It changed the mass to accommodate non-catholics. And what did that achieve? I think the church bent over backwards for non-catholics and lost millions of her own in the process.

Think of the miraculous image of Guadalupe, of OUR LADY, and how it transformed the faith of 9 million indians in 9 years. And you're afraid that we grant too much attention to Our Lady? No, I don't think there is enough.

:applause:

(I've got a cowboy hat on today because I'm having Texas Barbecue.)

MyrnaM · « **Reply #31 on:** May 28, 2012, 04:33:49 PM »

Neil, I never meant to give you or anyone the impression that I got the idea about crushing the head from a C.M.R.I. priest, sometime we form our own ideas, and assume we are right. I merely wanted you to know that I am Traditional.

I said, you gave me another insight on this, and I will ask Father when I get a chance, if there is a doctrine about "when" Our Lady will crush the head of the devil.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #32 on:** May 28, 2012, 04:35:25 PM »

My impression was that Our Lady would not crush the head of the devil until the end of the world, though I could be wrong.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #33 on:** May 28, 2012, 04:40:00 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Neil, I never meant to give you or anyone the impression that I got the idea about crushing the head from a C.M.R.I. priest, sometime we form our own ideas, and assume we are right. I merely wanted you to know that I am Traditional.

I said, you gave me another insight on this, and I will ask Father when I get a chance, if there is a doctrine about "when" Our Lady will crush the head of the devil.

That would be great! And please, after you have your talk with him, if you could be so kind as to return here and give some manner of summary, it would be helpful. We really need to hear the experiences of the Faithful.

Maybe after you talk to him, he could find some time to include this theme in a sermon or two, for everyone's benefit.

We're getting to the time when some head-crushing might be useful! :boxer:

BTW if you look up Genesis iii. 15 in your Bible you might not see "She shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." (Douay-Rheims) You could find such drivel as "He might get around to making you uncomfortable and you could wake up early to find you have indigestion," or whatever.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #34 on:** May 28, 2012, 04:59:18 PM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

My impression was that Our Lady would not crush the head of the devil until the end of the world, though I could be wrong.

Since this is the Father Gruner thread, I just listened to the following recording on yourlastchance.org under the Tuesday, May 15th tab.

4:30pm
to 5:30pm
Father Paul Kramer (A)

Mystery of Iniquity

after minute 44 Fr. Kramer mentions Our Lady crushing the serpent's head.

Pepsuber · « **Reply #35 on:** May 29, 2012, 08:05:55 AM »

Just FYI ... the Vulgate (and therefore the D-R) has "she shall crush" but the LXX (which is also authoritative) has "he shall crush". I think the typical interpretation is that Our Lady crushes the head of the serpent through her Son.

songbird · « **Reply #36 on:** May 29, 2012, 11:25:51 AM »

This was explained to me: That she and he go together. He is in Her and they both crush the serpents head.

songbird · « **Reply #37 on:** May 29, 2012, 11:26:48 AM »

That right, Our Son through Her.

Hobbledehoy · « **Reply #38 on:** May 29, 2012, 11:20:36 PM »

Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatima did nothing but echo marvelously the great truth that Our Lord declared, saying, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by Me" (St. John, ch. xiv. 6).

For what reason is there that can explain why St. Luke recorded the visitation of the Blessed Virgin Mary to her aged kinswoman, St. Elizabeth, if not to commemorate how the Incarnate Son of the Eternal Father decreed and inaugurated her office as Mediatress of the graces in the sanctification of souls? For it was thus, and in such a manner only, that Our Lord chose to sanctify and consecrate the unborn St. John as His Precursor. And in this mystery do we find revealed the inestimable and ineffable works of grace that Our Lord deigned to operate in Mary, with Mary, and through Mary.

As Rev. Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Langrange, O.P., writes regarding this mystery of the Visitation, “Mary, who was to give birth to the Savior, brought grace to Elizabeth and to the unborn precursor. Mary herself had been redeemed in an absolutely exceptional manner by the future merits of her Son and she concurred in the redemption of us all. From the moment of her immaculate conception she had been redeemed by a sovereign redemption, being preserved from original sin instead of being healed of it. It was fitting that a perfect Redeemer should accomplish a sovereign and preservative redemption in at least one soul, and in that soul more closely associated with Him than any other in the work of man’s salvation. Truly, what Jesus merited for us in justice, Mary has merited for us with Him and in Him and by Him through the merit of congruity. In this sense it has pleased our Lord that no one should be saved except in consideration of the merits of His Mother. In the same sense it has pleased Him to sanctify the precursor by Mary’s words” (The Love of God and the Cross of Jesus, “The Mysteries of the Rosary”).

Before the great Dominican theologian, St. Alphonsus in his celebrated work, The Glories of Mary, wrote, “And now, if all these first-fruits of Redemption passed through Mary as the channel through which grace was communicated to the Baptist, the Holy Ghost to Elizabeth, the gift of prophecy to Zachary and so many other blessings to the whole house, the first graces that to our knowledge the Eternal Word had granted on earth after the Incarnation, it is quite correct to believe that thenceforward God made Mary the universal channel, as she is called by St. Bernard, through which all the other graces that our Lord is pleased to dispense to us should pass” (Part II, discourse V).

Again, for what other reason is there that can explain why St. Luke recorded the presence of Mary Most Holy at Pentecost amongst the Apostles than the fact that Our Lord chose to associate His Blessed Mother in the work of the edification of the His Church?

The Apostles were united in prayer with the Blessed Virgin Mary, and she (so to speak) drew down upon them from her Divine Son the Lord Holy Ghost in the plenitude of all His gifts and graces. This was why she was there with them. She is the Immaculate Conception, she was already the ineffable tabernacle and most pure Spouse of the Holy Ghost. Just as the Blessed Virgin went to St. Elizabeth, that she and the Precursor St. John the Baptist would obtain the grace of the Holy Ghost and the glad tidings of the Incarnation of the Eternal Word, so Mary Most Holy accompanied the Apostles for the same purpose, for she was constituted as supreme Arbitress and Mediatress of the graces won by the Passion of Our Lord, according to the command given her at the foot of the Cross, “Woman, behold thy son” (St. John xix. 26). This was the fulfillment of the ancient oracle of the Old Testament, wherein it is said to Most Holy Mary, “Inhabit in Jacob, and inherit in Israel, and take root in Mine elect” (Ecclus. xxiv. 13).

The message of Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatima is nothing more the celestially inspired epitome of the teaching of the Gospels, the Sacred Scriptures, the tradition of the Apostles and Fathers, the doctrines of the Councils and Roman Pontiffs of Holy Mother Church, being a practical summa of the teachings of St. Alphonsus and St. Louis-Marie regarding the indispensable role of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the economy of salvation. Fatima is but a grand echo of those immortal words that Mary Most Holy spoke (the only public pronouncement of hers recorded by the Evangelists): "Whatsoever He (that is, Our Lord Jesus) shall say to you, do ye" (St. John ch. ii., 5).

How greatly to be praised is the ineffable and unfathomable loving-kindness and charity wherewith the Lord God Almighty predestined the Blessed Mary to be the ever-Virgin Mother of the Word Incarnate, and consequentially elected her to a plenitude of glory and grace superior to that of all other created or creatable persons, whether Angelic or human: so as to make us cry forth in rapt adoration with St. Paul, "O depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God: how incomprehensible are His judgments, and His ways unsearchable!" (Rom. xi. 33).

Whensoever we have recourse to Our Lady, she in turn leads us to Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten of the Eternal Father and the only Son her perpetual and integral virginity. Just as St. Elizabeth praised her faith, and the Blessed Virgin in turn began intoning her beautiful Canticle Magnificat, so whensoever we praise Mary, we are rendering a more excellent praise to Him Who chose her to be His Mother.

Hobbledehoy · « **Reply #39 on:** May 29, 2012, 11:24:40 PM »

Regarding the exegesis of the great protoevangelium in Genesis (cap. iii., 15), consult the following thread:

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/The-Blessed-Virgin-Mary-the-Second-Eve

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #40 on:** May 30, 2012, 10:39:40 AM »

Quote from: songbird

This was explained to me: That she and he go together. He is in Her and they both crush the serpent's head.

The miraculous image of the Virgin of Guadalupe shows Our Lady wearing a black sash around her waist, the old Aztec custom for a woman who is with child; therefore, He is literally within her, for she appears expecting a child. When Juan Diego asked her name, she told him in his native tongue that she is the woman who crushes the stone serpent. When those words are interpreted into Spanish, they sound very close to "Guadalupe" and so that became her name. The stone serpent was generally depicted as a head only, the false god to whom the human sacrifices were offered. After the Virgin of Guadalupe appeared, the daily sacrifices to the stone serpent were extinguished. Therefore the miraculous intervention of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Mexico could be at least a partial fulfillment of the protoevangelium of Genesis iii. 15: She shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Isn't it interesting that this thread titled Fr. Gruner should turn to a discourse on the Mother of God? Father would have it no other way, for "it's not about him." His only desire it to lead souls to God through Our Blessed Lady.

The beautiful posts by Hobbledehoy, above provide excellent answers for those who would ask why Catholics regard Blessed Mary so highly. For example,

Quote

As Rev. Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Langrange, O.P., writes regarding this mystery of the Visitation, “Mary, who was to give birth to the Savior, brought grace to Elizabeth and to the unborn precursor. Mary herself had been redeemed in an absolutely exceptional manner by the future merits of her Son and she concurred in the redemption of us all. From the moment of her immaculate conception she had been redeemed by a sovereign redemption, being preserved from original sin instead of being healed of it. It was fitting that a perfect Redeemer should accomplish a sovereign and preservative redemption in at least one soul, and in that soul more closely associated with Him than any other in the work of man’s salvation. Truly, what Jesus merited for us in justice, Mary has merited for us with Him and in Him and by Him through the merit of congruity. In this sense it has pleased our Lord that no one should be saved except in consideration of the merits of His Mother. In the same sense it has pleased Him to sanctify the precursor by Mary’s words” (The Love of God and the Cross of Jesus, “The Mysteries of the Rosary”).

...would be a nice message to provide a preacher who vehemently denounces prayers to Our Lady, saying that's "idolatry." But would it fall on deaf ears?

This is the Age of Mary but it is also the age of doubt. Those especially most in need of her message are those who "preach" against her. We pray for them in our Rosaries, "O My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell; lead all souls to heaven especially those most in need."

We offer our 5 first Saturdays for their conversion. When Sister Lucia asked Our Lord why 5 Saturdays and not 9, as in the Sacred Heart First Fridays devotion, His answer was as follows:

Quote

"When I was in the chapel with Our Lord part of the night of May 29-30, 1930 (we know that it was her habit to make a holy hour from eleven in the evening to midnight, especially on Thursday evenings, according to the requests of the Sacred Heart at Paray-le-Monial), and I spoke to Our Lord about questions four and five, I suddenly felt myself more intimately possessed by the Divine Presence and, if I am not mistaken29a, this is what was revealed to me:

"My daughter, the reason is simple. There are five types of offenses and blasphemies committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary:

1. Blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception.
2. Blasphemies against Her Perpetual Virginity.
3. Blasphemies against Her Divine Maternity, in refusing at the same time to
recognize Her as the Mother of men.
4. The blasphemies of those who publicly seek to sow in the hearts of children
indifference or scorn, or even hatred of this Immaculate Mother.
5. The offenses of those who outrage Her directly in Her holy images.

"Here, My daughter, is the reason why the Immaculate Heart of Mary inspired Me to ask for this little act of Reparation ..."30

29a. As in the writings of Saint Margaret Mary, it would be an error to see the expression of a real uncertainty or doubt in this restrictive formula. It is simply a formula of humility and obedience through which the seer defers in advance to her director’s judgement.

30. See The Whole Truth About Fatima, Volume II, Appendix III. Also see Appendix I of this booklet.

Source

Further on are the following, most chilling words:

Quote

The Devotion of Reparation:
a secret of mercy for sinners

After enumerating the five blasphemies which gravely offend His Most Holy Mother, Our Lord gave Sister Lucy the decisive explanation which allows us to penetrate into the secret of Her Immaculate Heart, which overflows with mercy for all sinners, even those who scorn and outrage Her:

"See, My daughter, the motive for which the Immaculate Heart of Mary inspired Me to ask for this little Reparation, and in consideration of it, to move My mercy to pardon souls who have had the misfortune of offending Her. As for you, always seek by your prayers and sacrifices to move My mercy to pity for these poor souls."34

"The sin against the Holy Spirit." Here we have one of the principal themes of the Message of Fatima: since God has decided to manifest more and more His great design of love, which is to grant all graces to men through the mediation of the Immaculate Virgin, it seems that their refusal to submit with docility to what God wills is the fault which most gravely wounds His Heart, and for which He no longer finds in Himself any inclination to pardon. This sin seems unforgivable, because for Our Savior there is no crime more unpardonable than to despise His Most Holy Mother, and "to outrage Her Immaculate Heart, which is the Sanctuary of the Holy Spirit. This is committing ‘the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will not be forgiven in this world or in the next’."35

In 1929, in the apparition of Tuy which is the final fulfillment of Fatima, Our Lady will conclude the extraordinary manifestation of the Holy Trinity with these striking words: "So many are the souls which the justice of God condemns for sins committed against Me that I come to ask for Reparation. Sacrifice yourself for this intention and pray." These words are so strong that several translators took the liberty of diluting their meaning.36

34. Docuмentos, page 409.

35. Sister Lucy herself suggests this comparison with Mt.12: 31-32 in her conversation with Father Fuentes. See Volume III, page 503.

36. Dom Jean-Nesmy, for example, gives this inexact translation: "So many are the sins which the justice of God condemns for being sins committed against Me ..." (Lucie raconte, page 208; La Verité de Fatima, page 221; cf. also Father Alonso’s translation which appeared in Fatima et le Coeur Immaculé de Marie, page 42) No! the original text indeed says: "Sâo tantas as almas (souls) que a Justiça de Deus condena par pecados contra Mim cometidos ..." Docuмentos, page 465. Thus, without any doubt Our Lady refers to the numerous souls who are damned, not the sins which God reproves.

songbird · « **Reply #41 on:** May 31, 2012, 06:15:33 PM »

To Thorn: The devil can do magic. God creates miracles. That is the difference between evil and good. The devil is known to make himself a dog and etc. So, it takes a lot of miracles in the case of St. Bernadette. Some people have been told to throw holy water at a vision to see if it will go away (evil) or stay, of God. And as for apparitions, if Our Lady says to the seer, go tell the Priest to build a church or as the people to come here and pray, I take that as more then private. Maybe the public do not see Her but She does want the public to know a message from God through Her. It is true that we are not obligated to believe, for all we have been told before apparitions, lead to our salvation/faith. Usually everything Our Lady tells us, we already know, but She encourages us to prayer and such for She co-redemptorix.

Thorn · « **Reply #42 on:** June 01, 2012, 05:46:01 PM »

Now that I have enough time, let me respond to all the criticism:

Matthew - Yes, we are free to believe or disbelieve. I've been called a few names but never 'atheist unbeliever'! Besides, show me where I said that I disbelieved! I merely said that because it's not a doctrine or article of faith we are free to believe or disbelieve. Perhaps we need to dust off our college Logic 101 book & review. Disbelief or even simple neutrality regarding Fatima does NOT equate to lack of love & respect for the Blessed Mother.

Neil - According to dictionaries & English books, capitalizing pronouns is reserved for diety, so royalty doesn't count. Again - stating this fact doesn't equate to losing our Catholic sense. As for me, I too will defend to the death the honor of our Lady & I don't have to use She to do so. Read Matt 12, 47-50 & Mark 3, 34-35 where someone says to Christ that His mother & brethren were outside seeking Him. Christ answers that whoever shall do the will of my Father in heaven, he is my brother, sister & mother. Also in Luke 11, 27-28 when someone says blessed is the womb that bore Thee & Christ answers, yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God & keep it. It sounds cold, doesn't it? It's almost like Christ is putting Mary in her place. I take it (perhaps you do not), that He foresaw that man in the future might try to make Mary into a goddess & He emphasized that she did God's will perfectly & thus was Blessed. Every little thing He said & did was significant for something & teaching us. So no, I don't have to adjust my attitude, thank you. Yes, one day this whole mess will be sorted out. Maybe I should leave well enough alone but I don't regard the shepherd children at Fatima as 'holy prophets'. They didn't prophesy - they merely reported what they had seen & heard.
Neil, again - yes, Fatima is a private revelation. Only the children saw the Blessed Mother. Kindly show where in Sacred Scripture is the 3rd type of public prophetic revelation. The early Christians knew of & believed in the Immaculate Conception & Assumption & many years later the pope defined it so your explanation is a bit jumbled & hard to understand.

SS - It's not me who's embarrassing myself - it's those who are arguing & misrepresenting what I've stated. The operative word is MAY. The miracle MAY be the work of the devil or a true miracle or a case of mass hysteria, etc. I don't believe it's the work of the devil tho & NEVER said that I ever did. People have taken what I've written, added to it & just ran with it.

Lord Phan - I've seached several sources for you regarding the devil performing miracles. First let's define terms so we understand one another.
1. Satan is generally understood to mean the devil & indeed it does mean that. However, Satan from the Hebrew means also 'adversary'. When Christ said to Peter in Matt 16, 23 to 'get behind me, Satan', He was referring to Peter being an adversary for not wanting the prophecies to be fulfilled by His passion & death.
2. Another word for miracle is wonder, as in 'signs & wonders'. This according to any dictionary.
Now that we understand each other - on to the sources!
Matt 12, 38-39 where Christ warns against seeking signs (or miracles from heaven). Also Matt 16, 4 & Luke 11, 6.
Matt 24, 24 & Mark 13,22 warns of false Christs & prophets showing great signs & wonders. So obviously they will have the power to perform great signs & wonders, or miracles. Apoc 16, 14 says 'For they are the spirits of devils, working signs...' proves again that the devil does indeed have power to perform miracles.

SS - Have I now shown you too that the devil can perform miracles? Sorry that I have no encyclicals or decrees of popes, but in the Catholic Dictionary by John A. Hardon, S.J. under 'Private Revelations' he states: Although recognized by the Church and, at times, approved by her authority, private revelations are not the object of divine faith that binds one in conscience to believe on God's authority. The assent given to them, therefore, is either on human evidence or, when formally approved by the Church, on ecclesiastical authority according to the mind of the Church.' He does write more but that is gist of it.

chaz89 - I've been out of the NO since the early 70's, so really I've never had anything to do with it. Indeed the Mass was changed to accommodate non-Catholics. That was terribly wrong. That's not what I'm referring to in the least. I've never said that we give too much attention to Our Lady. You inferred that on your own. Please refer to my comments to Neil in what Christ said when someone told Him His mother & brethren were seeking Him. The partial footnote in my Bible for Matt 12, 47-50 says ' which Our Lord chiefly regarded in His mother was her doing the will of His Father in Heaven...' I believe that's what He wants us to focus on. Consult the Haydock Bible's footnotes as theirs is more extensive.

Marie - I think you'd have to do a lot of explaining to state that God Himself is subject to Mary. True, Christ performed His first miracle at her behest & I believe that she is staying the hand of God regarding our chastisement here.

Songbird - I agree with you in that we are not OBLIGATED to believe in Fatima.

I now hope that I've sufficiently explained myself.
Sorry for the delay, but I wanted enough time to put this together & I had things here I had to deal with this week.

Thorn · « **Reply #43 on:** June 01, 2012, 05:51:38 PM »

PS - I choose my name because I was a thorn in the side of a few people even before I joined this forum.

Marie · « **Reply #44 on:** June 01, 2012, 06:52:31 PM »

Quote from: Thorn

Marie - I think you'd have to do a lot of explaining to state that God Himself is subject to Mary. True, Christ performed His first miracle at her behest & I believe that she is staying the hand of God regarding our chastisement here.

I don't know that I have a lot of explaining to do, I did not make the statement, in that it did not originate with me. The post I made is a quote which comes from Saint Loius de Montfort, from the Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin.

“All things, the Virgin included, are subject to the empire of God: Behold, all things, and God included, are subject to the Virgin", so we are told by Saint Anselm, Saint Bernard, Saint Bernadine, and Saint Bonaventure". #76.