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Author Topic: Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.  (Read 3727 times)

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Offline stevusmagnus

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Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
« on: April 09, 2011, 12:39:41 AM »
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  • http://athanasiuscm.blogspot.com/2008/05/garrigou-lagrange-op-on-pro-vobis-et.html

    Garrigou Lagrange, O.P. On pro vobis et multis

    In a debate in my combox a Sedevacantist tried advancing the argument that the use of "For you and for all" invalidates the Eucharist. This argument has been refuted plenty of times but I thought it would be nice to use a pre-conciliar refutation of it from before the Novus Ordo was even conceived, written by Fr. Reginald Garrigou LaGrange, O.P., one of the most eminent anti-modernists of the early 20th century who worked for the Holy Office under Pope Benedict XV. This is an argument both for the form of the wine and the use of "for all".

    De Eucharistia

    REGINALDUS GARRIGOU - LAGRANGE O. P



    ART. III. - UTRUM HAEC SIT CONVENIENS FORMA CONSECRATIONIS VINI : « HIC EST CALIX SANGUINIS MEI ETC. »


    a.3- Whether this is the fitting form of the consecration of the wine “This is the chalice of my blood, etc.”State of the question: It is asked whether these words alone: “this is the chalice of my blood,” without other words adjoined are of the substance of this very form. So reckoned Alexander of Hales, St. Bonaventure, and Peter of Tarentasia.

    St. Thomas however with many others responds: the following words as well are of the substance of the form, as pertaining to it’s integrity, up to, exclusively, “As many times as you do these things…”

    The reason is that the last words are determinations of the predicate, namely, the blood of Christ, that is, “they pertain to the integrity of the same locution,” and in the same rite and manner are brought forth, while the priest holds the chalice in his hands.

    For so is designated the power of the blood poured forth, by saying “This is the chalice of my blood, of the new and eternal testament: the mystery of faith, which for you and for many will be shed unto the remission of sins.”

    That is the pouring out of the blood of Christ: 1. to attain eternal life; so is said “of the new and eternal testament”; 2. for the justice of grace which is through faith, so is said the mystery of faith ; 3. for the remission of sins.

    With regards to the accidental variations in diverse orthodox liturgies, cf. Corbelet, Histoire du Sacrement de l’Eucharistie, t. I, p. 263 sq.

    Question: With regards to the body of this very article, as Cajetan notes (in article 1um of this very question) there is a difficulty, namely, Whether St. Thomas wished to say that these words alone “This is the chalice of my blood,” do not suffice for validity?

    It is disputed also amongst Thomists, for in the body of the article, St. Thomas says indeed, rejecting the prior opinion, that the following words are of the substance of the form; but a little later he says, they pertain to the integrity (but integrity is distinguished from essence).<!--[if !supportFootnotes]-->[1]<!--[endif]--> And in article 1 in the body and to the 4th he says simply: “These words ‘This is the chalice of my blood,” are the form of the sacrament.”

    According to Billuart and many others, more probably, only the words, this is the chalice of my blood, or this is my blood, suffice for validity.

    It is proved in the first place from the Fathers especially St. Justin, Apolog. 2,<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><!--[endif]--> and Damascene bk. 4, Concerning the Orthodox Faith, c. 14,<!--[if !supportFootnotes]-->[ii]<!--[endif]--> who say that the consecration is brought about in these words: this is my body and this is my blood.

    Likewise the author Concerning the Lords Supper in St. Cyprian, and Innocent III in bk. 4 de Missa, c. 6.

    Secondly, it is proved from the liturgies of the Greeks. The Greeks preserve the essential form, for they validly consecrate, as all confess. But they do not mention the words: of the new and eternal testament, etc.

    Thirdly, it is proved by theological reason: Those words alone are essential which signify the real presence of the blood of Christ. But the aforesaid words independently from those following signify this real presence, no less than “this is my body,” in dependently from the following, that is handed over for you. Therefore the last words of the consecration of the wine are not for it’s essence, but for it’s integrity.

    Gonet responds: this would suffice indeed for the Eucharist as sacrament but not as sacrifice, in which the pouring out of blood ought to be signified. But this does not seem certain, for from the very fact that the second consecration produces, by the power of the words the presence of the blood only, so that the body of Christ is not there save concomitantly, the sacramental pouring out of blood is already expressed, because the mass is sacramental and unbloody sacrifice.

    Lastly, St. Thomas himself, in our question, a. 1 c. et ad 4 says, “if the priest would mention only the aforesaid words (this is my body and this is my blood, with the intention of confecting the sacrament, this sacrament would be accomplished.”

    Indeed, in our article 3, St. Thomas says “through the first words ‘this is the chalice of my blood’ the very conversion into blood is signified. But through the words following, the power of the blood poured out in the passion is designated.” Therefore through the last words the very conversion is not signified, which was already effected by the prior words which signify it.

    Moreover, as we have noted, a little while before, St. Thomas said: these words following pertain to the integrity of the form, and he generally distinguishes the integrity of a thing from its essence; e.g. the foot and hand pertain to the integrity of man, not to his essence.

    Therefore probably St. Thomas would not deny, especially if he would have considered the liturgies of the Greeks, the position which is now considered more probable. Nevertheless, he holds that the subsequent words are not merely accidental, but pertain to the integrity of the formula.

    Objection: St. Pius V commanded that the dissertation in which Catjean said, “Even if the intention of St. Thomas would be contrary, it does not matter” to be taken out of the Commetaries on the Summa of St. Thomas.

    It is responded: The Supreme Pontiff commanded this dissertation to be expunged not as false in this part, but because Cajetan, did not speak reverently enough concerning St. Thomas. Cf. other things concerning this affair in Billuart in the same place.

    Against the 8th: Why is for you and for many said? For you, namely the Jєωs, and for many others, namely for the gentiles.

    It signifies likewise: “for you eating, and for the many for whom it is offered.”

    For the many, also signifies, for all sufficiently, as is explained in the treatise concerning the one God, where there is treated concerning the universal salvific will, c.f. 1a q. 19, a. 6 ad 1,<!--[if !supportFootnotes]-->[2]<!--[endif]--> c.f. 1 Tim. 11:5: “Christ gave himself a ransom for all.” That is, for all sufficiently, for many efficaciously as St. Thomas explains in the Commentary on the Epistle to Timothy in the same place. Likewise St. Paul 2. Cor. 5:15, “Christdied for all;” Romans 5:18 “As by the sin of one it is all men unto condemnation, so also through the justice of one is is to all men unto justification of life.”

    Against the 9th, It is said that the words “mystery of faith” are had from the oral tradition of the Lord, but it is not necessary that Christ himself pronounced these words.



    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
    « Reply #1 on: April 09, 2011, 12:53:40 AM »
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  • Also it appears Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange was supervisor of the doctorate of Karol Wojtyla!

    link


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
    « Reply #2 on: April 09, 2011, 01:40:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    This argument has been refuted plenty of times...


    I am sure you will be stunned when I tell you I do not agree :)

    We will talk later, but the 'short form' argument is worthless, IMO.  At the end of the day, the fact that it is NOT certain makes it VERY dangerous to mess with the form...as we DO NOT KNOW, with the certainty of Faith, whether the short for or the long form suffices.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
    « Reply #3 on: April 09, 2011, 01:43:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Also it appears Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange was supervisor of the doctorate of Karol Wojtyla!



    Indeed.  He was not so impressed with the Polish modernist.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Jitpring

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    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
    « Reply #4 on: April 09, 2011, 03:17:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Also it appears Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange was supervisor of the doctorate of Karol Wojtyla!

    link


    Yes, and he was most unimpressed. I forget the quote, but he said something like "many words, little said."
    Age, thou art shamed.*
    O shame, where is thy blush?**

    -Shakespeare, Julius Caesar,* Hamlet**


    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
    « Reply #5 on: April 09, 2011, 06:09:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Also it appears Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange was supervisor of the doctorate of Karol Wojtyla!



    Indeed.  He was not so impressed with the Polish modernist.



    Its amazing how out-of-context something stevus says can be portrayed to mean.

    Because the way stevus says thats Garrigou was the supervisor of Karol makes it sound as if Karol was a conservative.  WRONG! Go read the other thread about JPII and his flaming liberalness and Kantian philosophy bent , and how Garrigou failed his term paper.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
    « Reply #6 on: April 09, 2011, 06:23:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote from: stevusmagnus
    This argument has been refuted plenty of times...


    I am sure you will be stunned when I tell you I do not agree :)

    We will talk later, but the 'short form' argument is worthless, IMO.  At the end of the day, the fact that it is NOT certain makes it VERY dangerous to mess with the form...as we DO NOT KNOW, with the certainty of Faith, whether the short for or the long form suffices.


    I did not say this, "Athanasius" did. See the link. Sorry for the confusion....

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
    « Reply #7 on: April 09, 2011, 06:28:05 PM »
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  • I just posted the fact that Garrigou-Lagrange was Wojtila's director. It was interesting to me because I never knew that.

    The book I linked to also said Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange was "controversial". How so?

    Where are some links dealing with Fr. G-L's interaction with the future JPII?

    Thanks.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
    « Reply #8 on: April 09, 2011, 06:39:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    I just posted the fact that Garrigou-Lagrange was Wojtila's director. It was interesting to me because I never knew that.


    FWIW, that is the impression I got.  

    Frankly, there is so much to know about these wild times that things new to ourselves are always being discovered.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
    « Reply #9 on: April 09, 2011, 06:40:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    I did not say this, "Athanasius" did. See the link. Sorry for the confusion....


    No worries.  I did not think it was your piece.  Cheers  :cheers:
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
    « Reply #10 on: April 09, 2011, 06:46:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote from: stevusmagnus
    This argument has been refuted plenty of times...


    I am sure you will be stunned when I tell you I do not agree :)

    We will talk later, but the 'short form' argument is worthless, IMO.  At the end of the day, the fact that it is NOT certain makes it VERY dangerous to mess with the form...as we DO NOT KNOW, with the certainty of Faith, whether the short for or the long form suffices.


    How do you explain Fr. G-L apparently supporting it if it is worthless?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
    « Reply #11 on: April 10, 2011, 10:44:31 AM »
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  • De Defectibus Decree of the Council of Trent
    DEFECTS WHICH MAY OCCUR IN CELEBRATING MASS

    CHAPTER II
    DEFECTIVE FORMULA



    V. 1. DEFECTS may arise in respect of the formula, if anything is wanting to complete the actual words of consecration. The words of consecration, which are the formative principle of this Sacrament, are as follows: Hoc est enim Corpus meum; and: Hic est enim calix Sanguinis mei, novi et aeterni testamenti; mysterium fidei, qui pro vobis et pro multis effundetur in remissionem peccatorum. If any omission or alteration is made in the formula of concecration of the Body and Blood, involving a change of meaning, the consecration is invalid. An addition made without altering the meaning does not invalidate the consecration, but the Celebrant commits a mortal sin.


    Seems Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange is not in agreement with Trent.  :furtive:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
    « Reply #12 on: April 10, 2011, 02:22:10 PM »
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  • I'm pretty sure he was aware of Trent. Therefore I'm pretty sure Trent doesn't mean what you think it means.

    Offline TKGS

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    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
    « Reply #13 on: April 10, 2011, 06:11:17 PM »
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  • I have found that some apologists quote portions of many eminent theologians of old but leave out important qualifications.  I don't believe this is the case here, however.

    There is another problem that I have noted even with lengthy and in context quotes.  This problem occurs at times when some traditional Catholics read Denzinger and the Code of Canon Law (which is why, I think, some traditional Catholics have become what we call "home alone Catholics").  The problem I have seen is that particular dissertations were written in response to particular controversies and specific circuмstances.  

    In most cases I don't believe even these quotations are being used to intentionally mislead.  And the arguments presented should be examined and considered.

    I don't know all the answers nor do I understand why this particular theologian seems to be making the claims that he is.  On the other hand, many other theologians disagree with him on this particular issue.  Given the current Crisis in the Church, however, one has to ask if the thesis can be accepted in view of the damage that has occurred.  It seems self-evident to me that there is a lack of grace in the Conciliar Church.  It is, of course possible, that the "for all" formula is valid but the lack of grace that flows from the Novus Ordo is due to the invalidity of orders of its priests.

    Irregardless of all the various opinions on these matters, when it comes to novelties, the respected theologians for centuries prior to Vatican II have been nearly, if not completely, unanamous in teaching to eschew novelty and always remain faithful to the traditions handed down from the Apostles.  As such, even technically "valid" novelties must be rejected.

    The only way anyone should accept any novelty associated with the Conciliar church is if it can be demonstrated with absolute certainty that the novelty in question can not only be reconciled by parsing the novelties into each and every consituent part and demonsting that each part is, in isolation, consistent with the Catholic Faith (as the neo-cons often do), but also the novelty in question as a whole is self-evidently consistent with the Catholic Faith as has been taught from the Council of Trent.  One should consider if Pope Saint Pius X would have embraced the novelty immediately and without an extensive theological critique.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange- "For all" Valid.
    « Reply #14 on: April 10, 2011, 07:05:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    How do you explain Fr. G-L apparently supporting it if it is worthless?


    For whatever reason, the idea had gained some currency in his time.  Still, if one has the time and the inclination to examine the matter closely, it is, IMO, a no-brainer.  As no one had changed anything during or before Garrigou's time, or even thought such insanity was even a remote possibility, it makes sense that the various pieces of the puzzle remained scattered until our day.  FWIW, the sacramental form MUST express several things, one of which is something called the res sacramenti.  With the short form, this is absolutely impossible.

    I may find and link a thread or two about this subject that I started at FE.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."