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Author Topic: Fr. Cekada - Two Emails on Schiavo  (Read 4161 times)

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Fr. Cekada - Two Emails on Schiavo
« on: April 21, 2012, 05:46:30 PM »
When I asked for the source for something Fr. Cekada had supposedly said about the Terri Schiavo dispute, Gladius supplied the following link to Free Republic:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1393366/posts#47

I decided to copy Fr. Cekada's emails and post them below. Though he really "flames" the lady he's writing to in the last email, I can't figure out why anyone would say that he's wrong on the PRINCIPLES here.

----------

Email #1


Dear Cathy,

Thanks for your e-mail.

1. The Vittoria quote was intended to (a) show the origin of the teaching on extraordinary means and (b) provide some examples of what were considered extraordinary means.

2. It was the quote from Pius XII that provides the general principle that must be applied and that defines the term "extraordinary means" -- those which involve "grave burdens for oneself or another."

This, not the Vittoria quote, was the starting point for my discussion.

3. Providing nutrition and hydration artificially on a permanent basis does indeed constitute a grave burden:

"Routine medical practice today utilizes intravenous feeding in in a countless variety of cases. Certainly the physician regards this procedure as an ordinary means of safeguarding life. It is obviously capable of being carried out, under normal hospital conditions, without any notable inconvenience. For these reasons, I would regard recourse to intravenous feeding, in the case of typical hospitalized patients, as an ordinary and morally compulsory procedure.

"The above statement applies, as stated, to routine hospital cases and where the procedure is envisioned as a temporary means of carrying a person through a critical period. Surely any effort to sustain life permanently in this fashion would constitute a grave hardship."Charles McFadden OSA, Medical Ethics, 4th ed., (Philadelphia: 1956), imprimatur by Cardinal O'Hara.

Accordingly, when it is envisioned that such means will need to be employed permanently, they become "extraordinary" and there is no moral requirement to continue their use.

4. Below is a letter to The Remnant that expands upon some of my original remarks.

5. I lost the note regarding the docuмentation you mention. Did it concern SSPX's use of the John XXIII Mass, or was it something else?

In Christ,

Father Cekada

-----------------------

Email #2

Dear Cathy,

Bishop Sanborn is doing something on the Honorius/Liberius question. I'll forward it to you when it's completed.

As regards your comments on the Schiavo case:

1. In the quote, Pius XII enunciated the general moral principles to be applied, not merely particular ones applicable only to the narrow question of resuscitation.

Otherwise, you would have to maintain that his statements like "Normally one is held to use only ordinary means" or "life, health, all temporal activities are in fact subordinated to spiritual ends" apply only to the specific case of resuscitation, and that in other cases therefore: a) One is not held to use even ordinary means to preserve life and b) Life is not subordinated to spiritual ends.

Good luck.

2. The expense of Terri Schiavo's maintenance was "socialized" through wealth redistribution -- $750,000 via the litigation/insurance company shakedown, and other hidden costs we can only guess at via tax and other insurance subsidies.

(This should be obvious to anyone with the last name Brueggemann.)

Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers were very generous in spending everyone else's money.

Such expense is a grave burden on society, and as such falls within the definition of "extraordinary means." There is accordingly no moral obligation to continue it.

3. A wicked husband still maintains his headship over the wife before God and his "domestic and paternal authority."

He has the right to say yes or no to ice chips and Jello, unless and until an ecclesiastical or civil court, for a grave and just reason, legitimately impedes him from exercising his right.

Compromise on that principle, and the family is toast.

4. Finally, the larger problem I see is that lay traditionalists like you are trying to turn something into a mortal sin that isn't.

You have no business doing so. You don't have the training in moral theology that priests have, and you certainly don't have the confessional experience we do in applying moral principles.

But this doesn't stop you from boldly expressing your "opinion" on the moral issues in the Schiavo case, because in the practical order you simply cannot accept the fact that a priest probably knows a lot more that you do about certain subjects ‹ chief among them, moral theology.

I am supposed to make the distinctions for you between right and wrong, because I have the training, the sacramental graces and the experience to do so.

But because do not have the humility to recognize this in practice, you will go on endlessly arguing for your "opinion," rendering exchanges like this a waste of the priest's time, and in the process, I fear, turning traditional Catholics into members of the Church of Lay Opinion.

Be assured of my prayers.

Yours in Christ,

Father Cekada


Fr. Cekada - Two Emails on Schiavo
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2012, 05:56:26 PM »
Quote from: Canute
When I asked for the source for something Fr. Cekada had supposedly said about the Terri Schiavo dispute, Gladius supplied the following link to Free Republic:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1393366/posts#47

I decided to copy Fr. Cekada's emails and post them below. Though he really "flames" the lady he's writing to in the last email, I can't figure out why anyone would say that he's wrong on the PRINCIPLES here.

----------

Email #1


Dear Cathy,

Thanks for your e-mail.

1. The Vittoria quote was intended to (a) show the origin of the teaching on extraordinary means and (b) provide some examples of what were considered extraordinary means.

2. It was the quote from Pius XII that provides the general principle that must be applied and that defines the term "extraordinary means" -- those which involve "grave burdens for oneself or another."

This, not the Vittoria quote, was the starting point for my discussion.

3. Providing nutrition and hydration artificially on a permanent basis does indeed constitute a grave burden:

"Routine medical practice today utilizes intravenous feeding in in a countless variety of cases. Certainly the physician regards this procedure as an ordinary means of safeguarding life. It is obviously capable of being carried out, under normal hospital conditions, without any notable inconvenience. For these reasons, I would regard recourse to intravenous feeding, in the case of typical hospitalized patients, as an ordinary and morally compulsory procedure.

"The above statement applies, as stated, to routine hospital cases and where the procedure is envisioned as a temporary means of carrying a person through a critical period. Surely any effort to sustain life permanently in this fashion would constitute a grave hardship."Charles McFadden OSA, Medical Ethics, 4th ed., (Philadelphia: 1956), imprimatur by Cardinal O'Hara.

Accordingly, when it is envisioned that such means will need to be employed permanently, they become "extraordinary" and there is no moral requirement to continue their use.

4. Below is a letter to The Remnant that expands upon some of my original remarks.

5. I lost the note regarding the docuмentation you mention. Did it concern SSPX's use of the John XXIII Mass, or was it something else?

In Christ,

Father Cekada

-----------------------

Email #2

Dear Cathy,

Bishop Sanborn is doing something on the Honorius/Liberius question. I'll forward it to you when it's completed.

As regards your comments on the Schiavo case:

1. In the quote, Pius XII enunciated the general moral principles to be applied, not merely particular ones applicable only to the narrow question of resuscitation.

Otherwise, you would have to maintain that his statements like "Normally one is held to use only ordinary means" or "life, health, all temporal activities are in fact subordinated to spiritual ends" apply only to the specific case of resuscitation, and that in other cases therefore: a) One is not held to use even ordinary means to preserve life and b) Life is not subordinated to spiritual ends.

Good luck.

2. The expense of Terri Schiavo's maintenance was "socialized" through wealth redistribution -- $750,000 via the litigation/insurance company shakedown, and other hidden costs we can only guess at via tax and other insurance subsidies.

(This should be obvious to anyone with the last name Brueggemann.)

Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers were very generous in spending everyone else's money.

Such expense is a grave burden on society, and as such falls within the definition of "extraordinary means." There is accordingly no moral obligation to continue it.

3. A wicked husband still maintains his headship over the wife before God and his "domestic and paternal authority."

He has the right to say yes or no to ice chips and Jello, unless and until an ecclesiastical or civil court, for a grave and just reason, legitimately impedes him from exercising his right.

Compromise on that principle, and the family is toast.

4. Finally, the larger problem I see is that lay traditionalists like you are trying to turn something into a mortal sin that isn't.

You have no business doing so. You don't have the training in moral theology that priests have, and you certainly don't have the confessional experience we do in applying moral principles.

But this doesn't stop you from boldly expressing your "opinion" on the moral issues in the Schiavo case, because in the practical order you simply cannot accept the fact that a priest probably knows a lot more that you do about certain subjects ‹ chief among them, moral theology.

I am supposed to make the distinctions for you between right and wrong, because I have the training, the sacramental graces and the experience to do so.

But because do not have the humility to recognize this in practice, you will go on endlessly arguing for your "opinion," rendering exchanges like this a waste of the priest's time, and in the process, I fear, turning traditional Catholics into members of the Church of Lay Opinion.

Be assured of my prayers.

Yours in Christ,

Father Cekada



Father C is not wrong in any way on this issue.

Its just that The majority of people here are immature emotionally, ill equipped to deal with the sad realities of life, the Moral obligations not attached to emotions, GOD's Will, and how all of it relates to modern machinery to preserve a life when when suffers brain trauma and is effectively a vegetable.

Terri told her BROTHER, Her SISTER IN LAW And Her HUSBAND that she had NO desire to live a life on a Machine, as a vegetable or not.  All testified IN Court to this fact.
That should be enough.

But the people here make it a personal crusade to attack a Priest and play GOD of sorts, betraying a womens wishes and directives to end her life with dignity, not requiring a machine to prolong her life, when she had brain injury.

I say this with the greatest respect for Terri, by all accounts a beautiful and wonderful woman, who suffered a horric injury and sad (And public) death.

It is a land mine here on this forum, with the emotionally imbalanced and immature, ill informed, and misinformed, so watch where you step.


Offline SJB

Fr. Cekada - Two Emails on Schiavo
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2012, 06:23:29 PM »
John, you are in way over your head here and I guess that's why you're so arrogant.

Fr. Cekada - Two Emails on Schiavo
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2012, 06:31:19 PM »
Quote from: JohnChrysostom
 

It is a land mine here on this forum, with the emotionally imbalanced and immature, ill informed, and misinformed, so watch where you step.


Precisely what I was thinking, particularly with people who are emotionally vested in a topic.  Terry Schiavo was not your father, and a completely different set of circuмstances existed.

Quote
Terri told her BROTHER, Her SISTER IN LAW And Her HUSBAND that she had NO desire to live a life on a Machine, as a vegetable or not.  All testified IN Court to this fact.
That should be enough.


Here is in an example of your ignoring facts.  Her husband, and ONLY her husband, testified to this.

It also astonishes me how easily those who insist on a cult-like reverence for a priest with poor listening and reasoning skills (yet with a remarkably big mouth nonetheless) can ignore the fact that her husband did not begin his legal battle to end her life until AFTEr he received a multi-million dollar medical malpractice award intended to provide for her the rest of her life.  In fact, he it began almost immediately after the award was received, which is also the first time anyone heard Michael say Terri wished to die.  

It was also from these monies that Schiavo paid for the experts who testified in court regarding his wife's condition.   None of those monies went toward efforts at rehabilitative therapy of any type for Terri.  Not one dime.  

Terri was a legally incapacitated person.  Her husband is the person to make decisions for her by default, yet the law can and routinely does replace legal guardians who have proven themselves unfit.  The fact that he had a new "wife" and children, along with his behavior regarding the medical malpractice award, is strongly indicative of an individual who was biased, and had no business making decisions for Terri.

Fr. Cekada - Two Emails on Schiavo
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2012, 06:35:47 PM »
Quote from: SJB
John, you are in way over your head here and I guess that's why you're so arrogant.


I wont axe you for what specific issues Im over my head with.

Its obvious you are an emotional basket case, devoid Of any facts.