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Author Topic: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium  (Read 1566 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2021, 10:59:35 AM »
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  • We're not talking about an isolated erroneous proposition here or there, in an allocution, or some obiter dictum in an Encyclical.  They have introduced a new theological system and have been promoting it for 60 years.  They have introduced new worship, new Canon Law, new canonizations.  In short, they have introduced a brand new religion.  This crosses beyond the line of quibbling about the precise limits of infallibility.  We're talking about what would be tantamount to a defection of the Church if these men were legitimate popes acting freely to impose these things.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
    « Reply #16 on: July 22, 2021, 11:03:35 AM »
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  • What nearly everyone mistakenly believes, including Fr. Cekada and, from what I have been able to gather, ALL sedevacantist priests, is if any doctrine is generally accepted by all the bishops, or if a doctrine is addressed by the pope to the universal Church, it meets the conditions for infallibility by virtue of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.  This is entirely false and it is one of the principle errors that leads people to embrace the sedevacantist error.  

    I've rejected that position and have coined it "Cekadism".  In fact, he goes further and holds that anything that has the virtually universal consent of theologians is de fide.  It's a ridiculous exaggeration of infallibility.

    But, see my previous post, indefectibility is really the crux of the issue.  I've long argued that SVs and R&R are quibbling about the wrong thing, the precise limits of infallibility in the strict sense.  That's to mistake the trees for the forest.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
    « Reply #17 on: July 22, 2021, 11:15:55 AM »
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  • I've rejected that position and have coined it "Cekadism".  In fact, he goes further and holds that anything that has the virtually universal consent of theologians is de fide.  It's a ridiculous exaggeration of infallibility.

    But, see my previous post, indefectibility is really the crux of the issue.  I've long argued that SVs and R&R are quibbling about the wrong thing, the precise limits of infallibility in the strict sense.  That's to mistake the trees for the forest.
    Yes, precisely. This is exactly what led me to a sedevacantist position, and the misunderstanding of which has led friends of mine back to "conservative Novus Ordo". As much as I love Fr. Cekada, he is wrong in conflating infallibility with the Magisterium.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
    « Reply #18 on: July 22, 2021, 11:34:27 AM »
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  • Yes, precisely. This is exactly what led me to a sedevacantist position, and the misunderstanding of which has led friends of mine back to "conservative Novus Ordo". As much as I love Fr. Cekada, he is wrong in conflating infallibility with the Magisterium.

    Let's say the New Mass never happened, and all we were dealing with is the docuмent on Religious Liberty.  There would be no Traditional movement.  We'd just respectfully disagree with the hierarchy regarding Religious Liberty ... within the structures of the official Church.

    When good Catholics feel that they cannot co-exist with the hierarchy while continuing to hold true to the Catholic faith, that would in fact be a defection of the Church.  If that isn't a defection of the Church, then there's no such thing.  As long as you have a guy parading around Rome in white, then the Church hasn't defected?  People just should read the Catholic Encyclopedia article on indefectibility.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm
    Quote
    Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed. It is clear, too, that could the Church suffer substantial change, it would no longer be an instrument capable of accomplishing the work for which God called it in to being. He established it that it might be to all men the school of holiness. This it would cease to be if ever it could set up a false and corrupt moral standard.

    R&R focuses exclusively on "nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy" but ignores all that other stuff as pious hyperbole.  R&R claim the Church would defect on account of vacant See, but what does it matter if this See would alter the Church, establish a new religion, become corrupt in faith and in morals, etc.?

    In a way, it's indefectibility vs. indefectibility, where SVs find it easier to deal with a prolonged vacancy but that's all R&R seem to care about ... to the radical exclusion of all these other considerations.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
    « Reply #19 on: July 22, 2021, 11:37:32 AM »
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  • We're not talking about an isolated erroneous proposition here or there, in an allocution, or some obiter dictum in an Encyclical.  They have introduced a new theological system and have been promoting it for 60 years.  They have introduced new worship, new Canon Law, new canonizations.  In short, they have introduced a brand new religion.  This crosses beyond the line of quibbling about the precise limits of infallibility.  We're talking about what would be tantamount to a defection of the Church if these men were legitimate popes acting freely to impose these things.
    This happened at their Pentecost at V2, the reason infallibility is quibbled about is because of the false worldwide belief that the pope is infallible when he does anything related to the faith, including perpetrating the new faith.

    We don't concern ourselves with the Church, which is Christ, defecting.
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
    « Reply #20 on: July 22, 2021, 11:41:29 AM »
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  • But, see my previous post, indefectibility is really the crux of the issue.  I've long argued that SVs and R&R are quibbling about the wrong thing, the precise limits of infallibility in the strict sense.  That's to mistake the trees for the forest.

    Your previous post was an extreme exaggeration and over simplification.  Over the past year I have personally become convinced that a key aspect of the plan of those who infiltrated the Church was to introduce misleading ambiguities - statements that are, per se, true, but seem to be false - in order to cause an overreaction that would lead Catholics to conclude that the Church had defected.  Exactly what you have done.

    I don't have time to go into it now, but thus far, every apparent error or heresy of Vatican II that I have carefully looked into is, believe it or not, a true statement.  At most it is ambiguous, but usually the proposition is true and denying it is an error.  But the way these are phased gives it the appearance of error, or else little known distinctions are not explained that would clarify why the statement is true.  And in many cases Rome could have very easily clarified these points, but they didn't.   And it isn't just Vatican II. After the Council we had similar true but apparently false teachings.  If you read them superficially, they can convey to the intellect an error; but if you read them carefully, what they actually say and not what they don't say, the proposition is false.

    A priest friend mentioned one problematic statement to me a few days ago, and it is a perfect example of this.  In De Verbum, we are told that the truths in Scripture that are put there "for the sake of our salvation" are inerrant.  This teaching immediately cause people to conclude that historical and scientific truths in Scripture are not inerrant; but that's not what Dei Verbum says. All it says is what is contained in scripture for the sake of our salvation is inerrant.  That is a true statement, as evidenced by the fact that the contrary is false.  The contrary would be: "what is contained in scripture for the sake of our salvation is not inerrant."  

    Dei Verbum never denies that inerrancy also extends to scientific and historical truths, it simply affirms that it extends to truths that pertain to salvation.  Yet this true statement of Dei Verbum has been condemned as an error by many, and it has caused others to conclude that historical and scientific truths in Scripture could contain error.

    This is one example, but there are MANY more.   Again, I am now persuaded that these statements were intentionally inserted into the Council to cause an overreaction that eventually led Catholics to conclude that the Church had defected.  And similar tactics were used in the liturgy and other areas.  The devil is much more clever than we realize. 
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
    « Reply #21 on: July 22, 2021, 11:44:06 AM »
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  • Let's say the New Mass never happened, and all we were dealing with is the docuмent on Religious Liberty.  There would be no Traditional movement.  We'd just respectfully disagree with the hierarchy regarding Religious Liberty ... within the structures of the official Church.

    Even then the council's fathers would have most solemnly and most formally declared that they're manifest heretics.

    You obviously can't speak for anyone but yourself.

    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
    « Reply #22 on: July 22, 2021, 12:05:40 PM »
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  • Your previous post was an extreme exaggeration and over simplification.  Over the past year I have personally become convinced that a key aspect of the plan of those who infiltrated the Church was to introduce misleading ambiguities - statements that are, per se, true, but seem to be false - in order to cause an overreaction that would lead Catholics to conclude that the Church had defected.  Exactly what you have done.

    I don't have time to go into it now, but thus far, every apparent error or heresy of Vatican II that I have carefully looked into is, believe it or not, a true statement.  At most it is ambiguous, but usually the proposition is true and denying it is an error.  But the way these are phased gives it the appearance of error, or else little known distinctions are not explained that would clarify why the statement is true.  And in many cases Rome could have very easily clarified these points, but they didn't.   And it isn't just Vatican II. After the Council we had similar true but apparently false teachings.  If you read them superficially, they can convey to the intellect an error; but if you read them carefully, what they actually say and not what they don't say, the proposition is false.

    A priest friend mentioned one problematic statement to me a few days ago, and it is a perfect example of this.  In De Verbum, we are told that the truths in Scripture that are put there "for the sake of our salvation" are inerrant.  This teaching immediately cause people to conclude that historical and scientific truths in Scripture are not inerrant; but that's not what Dei Verbum says. All it says is what is contained in scripture for the sake of our salvation is inerrant.  That is a true statement, as evidenced by the fact that the contrary is false.  The contrary would be: "what is contained in scripture for the sake of our salvation is not inerrant."  

    Dei Verbum never denies that inerrancy also extends to scientific and historical truths, it simply affirms that it extends to truths that pertain to salvation.  Yet this true statement of Dei Verbum has been condemned as an error by many, and it has caused others to conclude that historical and scientific truths in Scripture could contain error.

    This is one example, but there are MANY more.   Again, I am now persuaded that these statements were intentionally inserted into the Council to cause an overreaction that eventually led Catholics to conclude that the Church had defected.  And similar tactics were used in the liturgy and other areas.  The devil is much more clever than we realize.
    Writing in ambiguous ways open to multiple interpretations on matters of faith was specifically condemned by St Pius X, and labeled as modernism.  How do you account for that in your position?


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
    « Reply #23 on: July 22, 2021, 12:08:37 PM »
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  • Even then the council's fathers would have most solemnly and most formally declared that they're manifest heretics.

    You obviously can't speak for anyone but yourself.

    What I said is that there would be no Traditional movement.  That's just a fact and not speaking for myself.

    Religious Liberty is not heresy.  It's an error, but it's not heresy.  We've gone through this before.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
    « Reply #24 on: July 22, 2021, 12:13:46 PM »
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  • Even then the council's fathers would have most solemnly and most formally declared that they're manifest heretics.

    You obviously can't speak for anyone but yourself.

    Except that the council's teaching on religious liberty comes right from Bellamine, Suarez and Pope Leo XIII.  The council is referring to the relation between individual citizens and the coercive power of the state qua state; and per the teaching of Leo XIII, the state, qua state, cannot regulate matters pertaining to worship or the salvation of souls, unless it is acting as an agent of the Church's coercive power. 

    The consequence is that, although no one has the right to false worship, the state qua state lacks the authority to regulate and suppress it  If you reject this, you are rejecting the traditional teaching of Pope Leo XIII.  This is another perfect example of a true teaching of Vatican II that only has the appearance of being false.  

    God may not permit a council to teach heresy, even when it is not defining a dogma, but He will permit the Council to teach something that is true, without explaining why it is true. 
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
    « Reply #25 on: July 22, 2021, 12:20:03 PM »
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  • Except that the council's teaching on religious liberty comes right from Bellamine, Suarez and Pope Leo XIII.  The council is referring to the relation between individual citizens and the coercive power of the state qua state; and per the teaching of Leo XIII, the state, qua state, cannot regulate matters pertaining to worship or the salvation of souls, unless it is acting as an agent of the Church's coercive power.

    The consequence is that, although no one has the right to false worship, the state qua state lacks the authority to regulate and suppress it  If you reject this, you are rejecting the traditional teaching of Pope Leo XIII.  This is another perfect example of a true teaching of Vatican II that only has the appearance of being false.  

    God may not permit a council to teach heresy, even when it is not defining a dogma, but He will permit the Council to teach something that is true, without explaining why it is true.
    .
    You are confusing true worship and false worship. The state has no right to regulate worship, as Leo 13 said, but a mosque does not worship God, and therefore the state has the right to close it down. The state is required to recognize the Catholic Church as the true Church and Christ as King.
    .

    Quote
    The consequence is that, although no one has the right to false worship, the state qua state lacks the authority to regulate and suppress it  If you reject this, you are rejecting the traditional teaching of Pope Leo XIII.  This is another perfect example of a true teaching of Vatican II that only has the appearance of being false. 

    .
    No, this is false and absurd. Heresy has historically not only been a religious crime, it has been a civil crime too in Catholic countries, as it should be. Error has no rights. Therefore, people have no right to teach error, contrary to Vatican 2, which falsely teaches that they do.


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
    « Reply #26 on: July 22, 2021, 12:29:06 PM »
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  • Writing in ambiguous ways open to multiple interpretations on matters of faith was specifically condemned by St Pius X, and labeled as modernism.  How do you account for that in your position?

    I am obviously not approving of ambiguity, and in the example I gave above from Dei Verbum, the doctrine taught is not even ambiguous.  It is true. But it is written in a way that causes some to believe it is says what it doesn't actually say.   God evidently permitted his enemies to incorporate such statements in the Council as a test of our faith.  I would compare it in some ways to the apparent contradictions in Scripture.  According to Augustine, these apparent contradictions are put there to test men's faith, and motivate them to study in order to see how they can be reconciled.   

    In my experience, whenever I've been presented with a difficulty in scripture, and eventually discovered the solution through personal study, I received an intellectual joy as a result, that evidently came from God.  And what I have found in the past year is when I eventually found the solution to an apparent contradiction in Vatican II, such as in its teaching on religious liberty, I experienced the exact same intellectual joy.

    Vatican II was a test of faith, just like the apparent contradictions in Scripture.
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
    « Reply #27 on: July 22, 2021, 12:39:24 PM »
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  • No, this is false and absurd. Heresy has historically not only been a religious crime, it has been a civil crime too in Catholic countries, as it should be.
    Of course it has, because these were Catholic countries in which the state acted as an agent of the Church's coercive power.

    Let me ask you this. Since you believe the state qua state can suppress heresy, who do you believe Biden should place in charge of stamping out heresy?  How about Kamala?  Surely you wouldn't object to that would you?  But how would Kamala know what church or sect was teaching heresy?  How would she know, for example, that the filioque was true, and that every Orthodox Church in the US should immediately be shut down?   And she surely wouldn't look to the Catholic Church to determine if the doctrine is false, since she doesn't believe the Catholic Church is true.

    The point being, the state qua state obviously lacks the competency to judge heresy and hence it lacks the authority to suppress it, unless it is acting as an agent of the Church's coercive authority, with the Church serving as the judge.  
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline Bataar

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    Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
    « Reply #28 on: July 22, 2021, 01:38:54 PM »
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  • I remember watching a video where Bishop Sanborn discussed this issue. The subject he used was Guardian Angels. He said there is no infallible docuмent or statement made that states that every human person has their own Guardian Angel who will be with them from conception until death. However, because it is a teaching of the church under its ordinary magisterium, it would be on pain of heresy to deny this. Was Bishop Sanborn mistaken?

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Fr. Cekada on the Magisterium
    « Reply #29 on: July 22, 2021, 02:03:58 PM »
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  • Your previous post was an extreme exaggeration and over simplification.  Over the past year I have personally become convinced that a key aspect of the plan of those who infiltrated the Church was to introduce misleading ambiguities - statements that are, per se, true, but seem to be false - in order to cause an overreaction that would lead Catholics to conclude that the Church had defected.  Exactly what you have done.

    I don't have time to go into it now, but thus far, every apparent error or heresy of Vatican II that I have carefully looked into is, believe it or not, a true statement.  At most it is ambiguous, but usually the proposition is true and denying it is an error.  But the way these are phased gives it the appearance of error, or else little known distinctions are not explained that would clarify why the statement is true.  And in many cases Rome could have very easily clarified these points, but they didn't.   And it isn't just Vatican II. After the Council we had similar true but apparently false teachings.  If you read them superficially, they can convey to the intellect an error; but if you read them carefully, what they actually say and not what they don't say, the proposition is false.

    A priest friend mentioned one problematic statement to me a few days ago, and it is a perfect example of this.  In De Verbum, we are told that the truths in Scripture that are put there "for the sake of our salvation" are inerrant.  This teaching immediately cause people to conclude that historical and scientific truths in Scripture are not inerrant; but that's not what Dei Verbum says. All it says is what is contained in scripture for the sake of our salvation is inerrant.  That is a true statement, as evidenced by the fact that the contrary is false.  The contrary would be: "what is contained in scripture for the sake of our salvation is not inerrant."  

    Dei Verbum never denies that inerrancy also extends to scientific and historical truths, it simply affirms that it extends to truths that pertain to salvation.  Yet this true statement of Dei Verbum has been condemned as an error by many, and it has caused others to conclude that historical and scientific truths in Scripture could contain error.

    This is one example, but there are MANY more.   Again, I am now persuaded that these statements were intentionally inserted into the Council to cause an overreaction that eventually led Catholics to conclude that the Church had defected.  And similar tactics were used in the liturgy and other areas.  The devil is much more clever than we realize.

    Dei Verbum also affirms the inerrancy of all of Scripture right before and after.

    Quote
    Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation. Therefore "all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind" (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text).

    Your quote underlined, and the parts affirming Scripture is infallible in bold.

    So the paragraph as a whole isn't even implying that historical and scientific details in Scripture may be false. It's just that one sentence that's intentionally worded that way to imply otherwise, even though the rest of the paragraph confirms it. It was clearly written like that so it would be quoted out of context.