Author Topic: Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout  (Read 4165 times)

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Offline LordPhan

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Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2012, 12:27:37 PM »
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  • I hope everyone in the SSPX follows the 3, then there will be a smaller split, just Menzingen!

    Offline John Grace

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    Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout
    « Reply #31 on: May 14, 2012, 12:30:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Open letter to my fellows priests, faithful and friends.

    Reading the letter of three Bishops of the Society to the General House and the response of this one by Bishop Fellay and his followers, (this letter has more or less the same mistakes that the ones expressed by Dom Gérard, Bishop Rifan and Father Muñoz) I want to express:


    1 º Our total adhesion to the SPPX and to his Founder and therefore my absolute support to the three Bishops who remain faithful to the work of Archbishop Lefebvre in whom I place my obedience.


    2 º My disregard for the authority of Bishop Fellay, due his obstinacy and deviation from the principles of the founder, and for all who share his position to hand over Rome; my rejection to the position of Bishop Fellay founded on his political views deviated from the “Yes, yes- no, no” of the Gospel and also deviated from the principles given by Archbishop Lefebvre.


    3 º Our absolute rejection to any agreement with the modernist Rome, at which this bishop, BF, is dragging us shamelessly in a suicide operation, ignoring the advice of:

    a) Our Fouder

    b): His three fellow Bishops.

    c) Several priests over the past few years, who objected with good reason the steps taken towards the communion with a church  defined as "post-conciliar" and non-Catholic, who is the enemy of Our Lord and of his universal kingdom; and ended up expelled or resigned to avoid ending up in the unfortunate situation in which we are placed today.


    4 For this reason, I make an appeal to the three bishops who remain faithful and have the authority bequeathed by the founder, to take charge of the fraternity to avoid dismantling and dispersal.

    5 ° I call upon the faithful members who still keep loyalty, faithfulness and obedience to our founder, to clearly and effectively support our three loyal bishops and remove the support to all the obsequious followers who have allowed with his consent, cooperation and silence the current state of things leading to the irremediable division of the Fraternity.


    Because we are confirmed, we are soldiers or Christ the King; we made the anti-modernist oath prior to our ordination, for not to end up in the perjury and apostasy, I urge everyone to take a tough stance on tradition, to direct our efforts to support the defense of the Society, safely boat in which many goals have been reached and in which we have survived the apostasy of our times, while waiting for a real and complete conversion of the Pope and the Eternal Rome.

    Confident in the consecration once made by our religious family to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, let’s fight with Her and for Her until the end, Amen.

    Father E.J.J.Cardozo


    Father was suspended and is currently with the  Benedictines. Cristera updated the thread.They correctly oppose an agreement.


    Offline PereJoseph

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    Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout
    « Reply #32 on: May 14, 2012, 12:42:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    Quote from: PereJoseph
    Quote from: LordPhan
    Hoping for a split amongst the faithful is schismatic. The Catholic thing to do is to pray that those causing it come to their senses, saying "The bigger the split the better" is in itself taking joy in schism. We are to be pained by it but be aware that it is happening and being on the right side.

    Do not defend sin sir.


    I think we can assume in charity that everybody here would prefer for Bishop Fellay's heart to be moved against the deal.  Of course we do not hope for him to make the deal and would rather have him take up the legacy of the Archbishop.  I think that the original poster, however, implied that, since it seems clear that the deal will happen and that there is division in the Society over it, a big split is best according to the circumstances.  He seemed to be making a statement that was contingent upon the deal happening, rather than an absolute statement.  I will let him clarify his comment, but I already gave him the benefit of the doubt and read his comment in that context.  It seems like charity obliges us to give him that benefit.


    I can be persuaded by this arguement, if that is what he meant then I take back my statement. It would then have merely been worded wrong.


    I think that is the Catholic and noble thing to do.

    Offline Cheryl

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    Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout
    « Reply #33 on: May 14, 2012, 12:59:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: John Grace
    Quote
    Hoping for a split amongst the faithful is schismatic. The Catholic thing to do is to pray that those causing it come to their senses, saying "The bigger the split the better" is in itself taking joy in schism. We are to be pained by it but be aware that it is happening and being on the right side


     :pray:




    Sounds like a plan.  I'm not SSPX but I know that at the moment other traditional Catholics need prayers to stay traditonal, so I pray. :pray:

    Offline Ethelred

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    Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout
    « Reply #34 on: May 14, 2012, 01:35:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Open letter to my fellows priests, faithful and friends.
    [..]
    Because we are confirmed, we are soldiers or Christ the King; we made the anti-modernist oath prior to our ordination, for not to end up in the perjury and apostasy, I urge everyone to take a tough stance on tradition, to direct our efforts to support the defense of the Society, safely boat in which many goals have been reached and in which we have survived the apostasy of our times, while waiting for a real and complete conversion of the Pope and the Eternal Rome.

    Confident in the consecration once made by our religious family to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, let’s fight with Her and for Her until the end, Amen.

    Father E.J.J.Cardozo

    What a brave priest this Father Cardozo is. The Spanish catholics are very militant.
    God save this priest and all other clerics who fight for the eternal Rome and hence oppose the SSPX sellout.

    Sanct Ignatius of Loyola, pray for us!


    Offline parentsfortruth

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    Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout
    « Reply #35 on: May 14, 2012, 01:51:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    I for one hope that a split can be avoided, I hope that Bishop Fellay can be removed from his position, unfortunately this does not seem like that will happen.

    From what I've been told, the SSPX has control of the properties, they have made sure to do this ever since 1983.

    Times are going to get tough for many of us, but perhaps it is a test to see if we are as strong as those who resisted immediately after V2.

    It may be a cleansing of sorts.

    Bishop Tissier de Mallerais is the exact position that Archbishop Lefebre had, Bishop Williamson is similar but does things in a slightly different way. I believe but do not know for certain that Bishop De Gallareta is the same.

    It is apparent that Bishop Fellay is not. He seems to hold the position that the FSSP holds. We will all soon find out who our friends are.

    Keep strong and keep your eyes open to any events.

    Yesterday I saw a disturbing sermon from the District Superior of Canada, pronounce that:

     1: That Bishop Fellay has done as much as or more for the SSPX than
     Archbishop Lefebvre! (I kid you not, he said these words)

     2: That a non-Catholic businessman told Menzingen that the SSPX were wrong
     in their methods; that is one example of why they should join Rome

     3: He attacked the priest who leaked the letter, calling it a mortal sin
     to
     do so. He said that if someone receives a letter from someone and shows it
     to someone else, that it is a mortal sin. Well, I received an email and
     showed it to someone today; I don't think I committed a mortal sin.

     4: He disgustingly referred to Bishop Williamson as a Holocaust denier.

     5: He praised the Pope numerous times, including the above jab, which
     amounted to “Rome was gracious enough to overlook one of our Bishops being
     a
     Holocaust denier).

     6: He essentially said we must obey Bishop Fellay without question. (How
     can
     one be a member of the SSPX, let alone one of its Superiors, and not know
     what false obedience is!)

     I’m not the only one who had a problem with this; there were several
     others.

    I got word from a friend that he had the complete opposite sermon from another famous SSPX Priest.

    Quote
    commented that the SSPX position has always been no practical deal without doctrinal solution, and that Bp Fellay seems dot be abandoning is. He then gave a sermon condemning relativism/subjectivism (basically a more detailed version of the 3 bishops' letter). After Mass he send the letters in question to everyone on the chapel email list and commented that BpF's response was "unconvincing".


    Words cannot describe how incensed this makes me.  :barf:
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline Mysterium Fidei

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    Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout
    « Reply #36 on: May 14, 2012, 10:53:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    Quote from: PereJoseph
    Quote from: LordPhan
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: LordPhan
    Quote from: Mysterium Fidei


    Hopefully there will be a spit. The bigger, the better.



    Are you not aware that this statement alone ipso facto removes YOU from the Church?


    Hmm... interesting perspective.
    It didn't jump off the page to me at all.
    Thanks for pointing that out, LordPhan.

    Could you provide some reference point you're basing it on? Unity of the Church?


    Quote
    On the contrary, Augustine (Contra Faust. xx, 3; Contra Crescon. ii, 4) distinguishes between schism and heresy, for he says that a "schismatic is one who holds the same faith, and practises the same worship, as others, and takes pleasure in the mere disunion of the community, whereas a heretic is one who holds another faith from that of the Catholic Church." Therefore schism is not a generic sin.


    Summa Theologica second part of the second part Question 39.


    Phan, I cannot help but not be convinced by your assertion.  It seems to me that if Bishop Fellay takes the Roman deal, he is effectively endorsing doctrinal pluralism -- ecumenism -- and therefore by his public actions does not believe in the Catholic Faith, but the Conciliar one as enunciated by the "hermeneutic of continuity."  That is to say, he seems to be willing to negotiate on points of Catholic doctrine, putting himself and his organisation at the mercy of neo-Modernists and their interpretations -- i.e., their teachings.  This is not exactly the old Conciliarist religion; it is a qualified and updated version, but it is a form of the same old Conciliarism nonetheless in that Tradition is being subjugated to novel "hermeneutics" and subversive political programmes.

    You said it yourself : Bishop Fellay seems to have adopted the position of the FSSP.  If the FSSP believes in the continuity between the old doctrines and the new ones invented at and since the Robber Council, they practice with Benedict a different religion than the Catholic one, since they do not believe in the Church's teachings on religious liberty, ecumenism, the visible unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, the authority of the Pope, etc.  How would Fellay's situation be any different from that of the FSSP and Campos and Papa Stronsay ?  He would be practicing the Benedictine religion, too, no ?

    Thus, I do not think it is just to accuse somebody who favours a big split of supporting schism.  On the contrary, it seems clear that Fellay means to make the deal, in which case the Catholic Faith would benefit from the most amount of people in the SSPX possible not going along with Menzingen's manoeuvre.

    If we were to apply your logic to Papa Stronsay's situation, for instance, we would have no choice but to accuse of being a schismatic anybody who privately or publicly expressed the desire that as many of the Transapline Redemptorists as possible would leave their organisation and stay faithful to their old position and the Catholic Faith.  The same applies to Campos, in which case we would need to accuse almost everybody in the SSPX -- who opposed both deals as defections and praised those priests who didn't go along with them -- of schism.  Are you ready to do that ?  It seems like it would be better to rescind your statement and apologise to Mysterium Fidei.



    Hoping for a split amongst the faithful is schismatic. The Catholic thing to do is to pray that those causing it come to their senses, saying "The bigger the split the better" is in itself taking joy in schism. We are to be pained by it but be aware that it is happening and being on the right side.

    Do not defend sin sir.



    Let me clarify my position. Although I disagree with the SSPX regarding their position on the man that they recognize as the Pope, I have absolutely nothing against the SSPX, Bishop Fellay, or any of those that choose go to SSPX Chapels and receive the Sacraments from them. It is my fervent prayer that +Fellay comes to his senses and rejects any proposed deal with the Modernists, and remain faithful to Tradition.

    I am operating under the assumption that a deal between +Fellay and Rome is basically a done deal and the only thing remaining to be done is to announce the agreement. IF then there is a deal, it is my hope and prayer that the 3 remaining Bishops and as many clergy and laity as possible reject the compromise with Modernists and remain faithful to Tradition.

    My statement about hoping for a big split was certainly not meant to be uncharitable and I sincerely apologize if it appeared to be lacking in charity.
    Dim drums throbbing, in the hills half heard,
    Where only on a nameless throne a crownless prince has stirred,
    Where, risen from a doubtful seat and half attained stall,
    The last knight of Europe takes weapons from the wall,...

    Offline Mysterium Fidei

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    Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout
    « Reply #37 on: May 14, 2012, 11:07:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    I hope everyone in the SSPX follows the 3, then there will be a smaller split, just Menzingen!


    This is basically what I was trying to say, only I didn't say it very clearly.
    Dim drums throbbing, in the hills half heard,
    Where only on a nameless throne a crownless prince has stirred,
    Where, risen from a doubtful seat and half attained stall,
    The last knight of Europe takes weapons from the wall,...


    Offline LordPhan

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    Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout
    « Reply #38 on: May 14, 2012, 11:16:24 PM »
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  • I retract my previous assertion and statement regarding your post.

    I also apologize for MY uncharitableness as Pere kindly pointed out. Earlier today I was very stressed out and overly excitable, I should not have jumped to conclusions about your post especially without asking for a clarification on your intentions. This is no excuse of course, as I should have contemplated my response before writing it as I usually do.

    God Bless.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout
    « Reply #39 on: May 14, 2012, 11:27:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: parentsfortruth
    "What if certain congregations of the Society whose buildings do not belong to the SSPX per se, that belong to individuals, perhaps, do not go along with such a 'practical agreement' and decide to 'boot out' the SSPX?"
     


    I don't think this exists anywhere. After past experiences, the SSPX policy is not to serve a Mass location unless any property is owned by the SSPX.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Mysterium Fidei

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    Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout
    « Reply #40 on: May 14, 2012, 11:36:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    I retract my previous assertion and statement regarding your post.

    I also apologize for MY uncharitableness as Pere kindly pointed out. Earlier today I was very stressed out and overly excitable, I should not have jumped to conclusions about your post especially without asking for a clarification on your intentions. This is no excuse of course, as I should have contemplated my response before writing it as I usually do.

    God Bless.


    Completely understandable. This is a very stressful time indeed. Although I don’t have a “dog in this fight” so to speak, I would certainly consider a deal between the SSPX and the Modernists in Rome a severe blow to the cause of Tradition.

    Hopefully Rome is seeing what appears to be growing resistance to +Fellay’s deal and may be getting cold feet. I think it is good that the letter of the 3 remaining Bishops became public.

    All we can do is to continue to pray.
    Dim drums throbbing, in the hills half heard,
    Where only on a nameless throne a crownless prince has stirred,
    Where, risen from a doubtful seat and half attained stall,
    The last knight of Europe takes weapons from the wall,...


    Offline Sede Catholic

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    Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout
    « Reply #41 on: May 15, 2012, 12:05:37 AM »
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  • Dear Matthew,
                           
                            Thank you so much for banning Anthony M!!!

    That really did me good.

    He was obviously trying to manipulate us all, and trying to confuse those who are susceptible to his kind of

    persuasion.

    Thank you again.

    God Bless you, Matthew.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout
    « Reply #42 on: May 15, 2012, 12:32:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    ...
    I also apologize for MY uncharitableness as Pere kindly pointed out.
    ...

    God Bless.


    That PereJoseph certainly has a way with words, EH?


    Quote from: MaterDominici
    Quote from: parentsfortruth
    "What if certain congregations of the Society whose buildings do not belong to the SSPX per se, that belong to individuals, perhaps, do not go along with such a 'practical agreement' and decide to 'boot out' the SSPX?"
     


    I don't think this exists anywhere. After past experiences, the SSPX policy is not to serve a Mass location unless any property is owned by the SSPX.


    Years ago, there was an independent chapel in town where an SSPX priest would come to say Mass as a substitute whenever the regular priest was out of town or infirm. That happened about 5 times a year, round figures. I don't know if it's still going on, though.

    As a side note, that letter post drives me nuts with all its typos!
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Why everyone would be affected by SSPX sellout
    « Reply #43 on: May 15, 2012, 10:33:51 AM »
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  • Yes Matthew, thak you for banning Anthony M.

    God Bless.


     

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