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Author Topic: Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair  (Read 7653 times)

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Offline Canute

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Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
« on: April 21, 2012, 01:29:54 PM »
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  • I found this when I was looking for Fr Cekada's articles about the Schiavo case. I think it was originally posted on a French site and then translated.

    Daly is Englishman living in France who teaches at a traditional school there, so he wasn't in the middle of all the media controversy here in 2005 and gives an "outsider's" take on it.

    -----------------------------

    Father Cekada,  Euthanasia, and the Terri Schiavo Affair

    John DALY, May 4th, 2006

    The name of Father Anthony Cekada is not unknown in France, mainly because of his book The Problems With the Prayers of the Modern Mass, a learned study on the liturgical propers of the Novus Ordo and the principles governing their divergence from the traditional formulas.

    More recently, this traditional American priest, ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1977 (but no longer with the Society of St. Pius X), has made two appearances recently in French in connection with the present controversy over the validity of the new rite of Episcopal consecration.  This controversy has been prohibited on this forum, for the undeniable reason that the invalidity theory directly questions the legitimacy of the authority which promulgated this rite.  But I believe I am not abusing the Forum by trying to get to the bottom of another controversy surrounding Fr. Cekada.  I would rather do it here than on the forums specializing in calumny.  Because in the face of his article on the consecrations and his interview on Radio Courtoisie last week, several Catholics have tried to destroy Fr. Cekada’s credibility by accusing him of promoting euthanasia in the famous case of Terri Schiavo, who died in 2005 after her feeding and hydration tubes were removed.  And that hopeless website “Honor” did not of course refrain from its habit of dishonoring itself by trying to dishonor others without any regard for the truth.

    It is never right, in any controversy, to attack your opponent’s reputation rather than his arguments.  And in this case it appears to me that the accusation is completely unfair.  I shall therefore allow myself to lay out the principal elements of the case…

    Terri Schiavo, an American housewife, had been in an advanced vegetative state for fifteen years as a result of incurable cerebral lesions.  Bed-ridden, without the ability to communicate, and, according to medical experts, having no knowledge beyond the level of her senses, she was being given solid and liquid nourishment by means of tubes.  Her husband wanted the doctors to withdraw these means of prolonging this life of a vegetable.  But her parents were of the opposite opinion and took him to court.  The case became a cause célèbre for the Pro-Life Movement.  The accusation of murder was heard.

    Fr. Cekada put together an article on these matters, which made waves by being opposed to the almost unanimous voice of Catholics and conservatives.  His main arguments were as follows:

    1.   The Pro-Life Movement, where Catholics work hand-in-hand with Protestants, Jєωs and humanists, sometimes tends to make an absolute out of prolonging human life, something which is not in conformity with sound doctrine.  In such cases, we must always resist being dragged down to the emotional level and make our judgments based on the teachings of the Holy See and approved theologians.

    2.   The Church teaches that it is not against the 5th Commandment to terminate extraordinary means of prolonging life.

    3.   The permanent use of feeding and hydration tubes for the benefit of a sick person, without any hope of recovery to more than a semi-vegetative state can be considered as an extraordinary means.  Such is the judgment of several respected theologians from the time of Pius XII.

    4.   In a case where solid arguments exist in favor of the legality of terminating the means of artificially maintaining life, where civil law is neutral, and where the doctors leave the decision to others, the one and only person (according to Catholic theology) competent to make such a decision for a married woman, is her husband, and not her parents.

    5.   This being the case, it is far from obvious that a mortal sin would be committed in removing the feeding tubes from Terri Schiavo.  To maintain the contrary argument is to pervert the conscience of Catholics not only as regards their obligations to maintain life artificially, but also on the matter of spousal rights.

    In following this outline, Fr. Cekada’s article certainly whipped up an outcry.  From the torrent of emotional abuse only five arguments can be extracted that amount to even the slightest importance:

    1.   The media had falsified the facts concerning the real state of Mrs. Schiavo.  In fact, she was able to swallow naturally and at times she could communicate by understandable words, she was not totally deprived of intelligence, etc.

    2.   The husband of Mrs. Schiavo was a depraved individual, already living in sin with another woman, and who wanted to rid himself by any means of his embarrassing wife, without even the slightest interest in the moral aspect of the case.
    3.   The use of feeding and hydration tubes in this particular case was not an extraordinary means.

    4.   The death which follows the removal of these tubes is particularly painful.

    5.   If the courts authorized that Mrs. Schiavo should be allowed to die, soon all kinds of euthanasia would be legalized… and even made obligatory soon after that, in certain cases.

    To which Fr. Cekada replies roughly as follows:

    1.   His article presumes that the medical facts of the case are correct, and does so with all confidence, given the qualifications and the number of doctors who testified to them.  In any case, even if the facts did not turn out to be exactly right, this would only change the judgment of this particular case, and not the moral principles—Fr. Cekada’s point of interest.

    2.   Certainly one could not trust the husband to have taken any moral principles into account in deciding the fate of his wife.  But a lawful act can not be forbidden on the grounds that the person acting would have acted the same way even if it had been unlawful.  Certainly Mr. Schiavo would not have given much weight to the presumed will of his wife, but neither is he strictly obliged to do so.  It is not like writing a blank check to say that a husband, no matter how rotten he is, is still the husband, and that he alone has the right to decide, in any morally neutral matter, on behalf of his wife who is incapable of acting for herself.

    3.   If the extraordinary/ordinary character of the use of feeding tubes in such cases is up for discussion, then this demonstrates that their continued use cannot be made obligatory under pain of sin.  Theoretical judgment belongs to Catholic moral theologians and not to sentimentalists.

    4.   The life which continues as long as the tubes are left in place is also very painful, both for the patient and for other persons, for many long years.  This isn’t a question of some kind of quantitative evaluation of pain (which is impossible) but rather of the morality of allowing death to occur by removing means which have been judged by moral theologians to be, at least probably, extraordinary.  The suffering of death, even though it may be eased, is an evil.  This evil may be permitted in the face of a proportionate good.

    5.   A priest may not allow, out of any political motive, the consciences of Catholics to be seriously perverted.  It is not clear that Terri Schiavo was killed unlawfully, and there is nothing that allows the opposite to be claimed.

    It is not my intention here to enter into detailed discussion about these remarks.  My intention is simply to defend the serious and good name of Fr. Cekada, by showing that his role in the Schiavo controversy contains nothing manifestly contrary to faith or morals, nothing manifestly stupid or pernicious, as some would have us believe.

    Consequently, the other positions of Fr. Cekada, on questions of liturgy or whatever, cannot be settled by accusing the author of any lack of substance.  The book The Problems With the Prayers of the Modern Mass, which a great number of us value highly, maintains all its worth.  For the other positions of the author—tantum valent quantum rationes allatae.





    Offline JohnChrysostom

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    Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
    « Reply #1 on: April 21, 2012, 01:41:03 PM »
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  • With Fr. Cekada on this issue, I understand his thesis/premise.

    Why is it we must accept Modern/secular medical equiptment to prolong, sustain life, or to prevent Gods will?



    The bigger issue seems to me that once a decision is made to put someone ON such medical equiptment, that a bigger issue then faces the family.


    I dont undertand the other arguement.
    I think most are not well thought out, and are emoptional, knee jerk type responses to what really is GODs will.


    Either we all believe in medical equpitment, doctors, modern medicine or we accept GODs will in our decision on life, and We all have a WILL and instructions on WHAT to do IF we are ever in such a state, to not agonize a family with.


    How long and at what cost to society must another Terry Schiavo have before we allow GODs will to be done?  Hospital stays are $1000s per day.  SOmeone (Public) must pay for them.
    This isnt a Catholic hospital subsidy/gift as in the old days, it is another tax on all medical care, passed on to the populace.




    Offline SJB

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    Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
    « Reply #2 on: April 21, 2012, 06:58:47 PM »
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  • "Secular medical equiptment?"
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline ColdFusion

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    Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
    « Reply #3 on: April 21, 2012, 07:13:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    With Fr. Cekada on this issue, I understand his thesis/premise.

    Why is it we must accept Modern/secular medical equiptment to prolong, sustain life, or to prevent Gods will?



    The bigger issue seems to me that once a decision is made to put someone ON such medical equiptment, that a bigger issue then faces the family.


    I dont undertand the other arguement.
    I think most are not well thought out, and are emoptional, knee jerk type responses to what really is GODs will.


    Either we all believe in medical equpitment, doctors, modern medicine or we accept GODs will in our decision on life, and We all have a WILL and instructions on WHAT to do IF we are ever in such a state, to not agonize a family with.


    How long and at what cost to society must another Terry Schiavo have before we allow GODs will to be done?  Hospital stays are $1000s per day.  SOmeone (Public) must pay for them.
    This isnt a Catholic hospital subsidy/gift as in the old days, it is another tax on all medical care, passed on to the populace.



    Nor should we make blanket statements regarding the use of such equipment.  Feeding tubes and life support equipment can and has saved an individual's life while the body heals itself.  Most people who have been on life support at some point are now walking around alive and well

    As far as the costs go, perhaps as Catholics we should be more concerned about government payments for transgender hormone therapies and surgeries and Viagra.

    In the Schiavo case, the her parents wanted to take her home, and the med mal settlement would have paid for all expenses on her behalf.   Thus costs are irrelevant in this case.  I must admit though, I do find it somewhat distasteful that one shoudl be given less of a chance at fighting for one's life because we as taxpayers do not want to pay for it, while we continue to contentedly pay for all other manner of atrocities.
     

    Offline JohnChrysostom

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    Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
    « Reply #4 on: April 21, 2012, 07:17:54 PM »
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  • Quote
    Nor should we make blanket statements regarding the use of such equipment.  Feeding tubes and life support equipment can and has saved an individual's life while the body heals itself.  Most people who have been on life support at some point are now walking around alive and well.


    Dupe






    Offline JohnChrysostom

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    Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
    « Reply #5 on: April 21, 2012, 07:20:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: ColdFusion
    Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    With Fr. Cekada on this issue, I understand his thesis/premise.

    Why is it we must accept Modern/secular medical equiptment to prolong, sustain life, or to prevent Gods will?



    The bigger issue seems to me that once a decision is made to put someone ON such medical equiptment, that a bigger issue then faces the family.


    I dont undertand the other arguement.
    I think most are not well thought out, and are emoptional, knee jerk type responses to what really is GODs will.


    Either we all believe in medical equpitment, doctors, modern medicine or we accept GODs will in our decision on life, and We all have a WILL and instructions on WHAT to do IF we are ever in such a state, to not agonize a family with.


    How long and at what cost to society must another Terry Schiavo have before we allow GODs will to be done?  Hospital stays are $1000s per day.  SOmeone (Public) must pay for them.
    This isnt a Catholic hospital subsidy/gift as in the old days, it is another tax on all medical care, passed on to the populace.



    Nor should we make blanket statements regarding the use of such equipment.  Feeding tubes and life support equipment can and has saved an individual's life while the body heals itself.  Most people who have been on life support at some point are now walking around alive and well

    As far as the costs go, perhaps as Catholics we should be more concerned about government payments for transgender hormone therapies and surgeries and Viagra.

    In the Schiavo case, the her parents wanted to take her home, and the med mal settlement would have paid for all expenses on her behalf.   Thus costs are irrelevant in this case.  I must admit though, I do find it somewhat distasteful that one shoudl be given less of a chance at fighting for one's life because we as taxpayers do not want to pay for it, while we continue to contentedly pay for all other manner of atrocities.
     




    This person (Terri Schiavo) suffered Massive Brain trauma. Her body was not healing or in limbo.
    She had Massive trauama, a stroke, and was totally incapicitated, kept alive only by machines. Experimental surgery was tried by her husband and med staff early on, to no avail.

    She didnt break an arm or need a trach. She was for all intents and purposes brain dead, or very near to it.
    Costs are releveant when WE are all paying for a vegetable to be kept alive, artificially.

    Bottom line.
    She made her wishes KNOWN.

    She did NOT wish to have her life continued, BY Machines.
    Why cant you respect and honor that?!!![/b]

    Offline JohnChrysostom

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    Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
    « Reply #6 on: April 21, 2012, 07:23:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    "Secular medical equiptment?"


    What is modern medical equiptment used & relied upon FOR LIFE Itself, if not secular?  Would you call it Godly?

    Especially when the costs of that equiptment are Subsidized by the people, to sustain and preserve any life, artifically, by said machines.  I will call it secular type machinery.

    Why cant GODs will be done?

    Why cant YOU and others, rather than insist on playing mad scientist, accept GODs will, and accept the wishes of someone who made it very clear to 3 loved ones, that she had NO desire to be kept alive by a machine(s)?


    Offline ColdFusion

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    Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
    « Reply #7 on: April 21, 2012, 07:35:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    Quote from: ColdFusion
    Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    With Fr. Cekada on this issue, I understand his thesis/premise.

    Why is it we must accept Modern/secular medical equiptment to prolong, sustain life, or to prevent Gods will?



    The bigger issue seems to me that once a decision is made to put someone ON such medical equiptment, that a bigger issue then faces the family.


    I dont undertand the other arguement.
    I think most are not well thought out, and are emoptional, knee jerk type responses to what really is GODs will.


    Either we all believe in medical equpitment, doctors, modern medicine or we accept GODs will in our decision on life, and We all have a WILL and instructions on WHAT to do IF we are ever in such a state, to not agonize a family with.


    How long and at what cost to society must another Terry Schiavo have before we allow GODs will to be done?  Hospital stays are $1000s per day.  SOmeone (Public) must pay for them.
    This isnt a Catholic hospital subsidy/gift as in the old days, it is another tax on all medical care, passed on to the populace.



    Nor should we make blanket statements regarding the use of such equipment.  Feeding tubes and life support equipment can and has saved an individual's life while the body heals itself.  Most people who have been on life support at some point are now walking around alive and well

    As far as the costs go, perhaps as Catholics we should be more concerned about government payments for transgender hormone therapies and surgeries and Viagra.

    In the Schiavo case, the her parents wanted to take her home, and the med mal settlement would have paid for all expenses on her behalf.   Thus costs are irrelevant in this case.  I must admit though, I do find it somewhat distasteful that one shoudl be given less of a chance at fighting for one's life because we as taxpayers do not want to pay for it, while we continue to contentedly pay for all other manner of atrocities.
     




    This person (Terri Schiavo) suffered Massive Brain trauma. Her body was not healing or in limbo.
    She had Massive trauama, a stroke, and was totally incapicitated, kept alive only by machines. Experimental surgery was tried by her husband and med staff early on, to no avail.

    She didnt break an arm or need a trach. She was for all intents and purposes brain dead, or very near to it.
    Costs are releveant when WE are all paying for a vegetable to be kept alive, artificially.

    Bottom line.
    She made her wishes KNOWN.

    She did NOT wish to have her life continued, BY Machines.
    Why cant you respect and honor that?!!![/b]


    1.  A casual comment is NOT an advanced directive.  I've already told you that there is NO contract legally binding through a casual comment.  And, AGAIN, why were these "wishes made known" not mentioned during the first trial, the one for the money?

    2.  Your declaration that Terri was brain dead is a one medical opinion, not a fact.  We do not know for certain her level of brain damage, and her husband had demonstrated clearly that he was not the person to decide for her.

    Why are you so insistent to put people to death without giving them a chance?  Should we disallow incubators next for premature babies?  


    Offline SJB

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    Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
    « Reply #8 on: April 21, 2012, 07:36:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    Quote from: SJB
    "Secular medical equiptment?"


    What is modern medical equiptment used & relied upon FOR LIFE Itself, if not secular?  Would you call it Godly?

    Especially when the costs of that equiptment are Subsidized by the people, to sustain and preserve any life, artifically, by said machines.  I will call it secular type machinery.

    Why cant GODs will be done?

    Why cant YOU and others, rather than insist on playing mad scientist, accept GODs will, and accept the wishes of someone who made it very clear to 3 loved ones, that she had NO desire to be kept alive by a machine(s)?


    I would say medical equipment needs no distinction regarding secular and religious. You seem to be saying the equipment is contrary to good morals. I think the Church disagrees. Anyway, your infallible guide apears to be Fr. Cekada. I wonder if he knows such an ignoramous is on here "defending" him?

    Better not tell us your last name, right?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline ColdFusion

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    Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
    « Reply #9 on: April 21, 2012, 07:36:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    Quote from: SJB
    "Secular medical equiptment?"


    What is modern medical equiptment used & relied upon FOR LIFE Itself, if not secular?  Would you call it Godly?

    Especially when the costs of that equiptment are Subsidized by the people, to sustain and preserve any life, artifically, by said machines.  I will call it secular type machinery.

    Why cant GODs will be done?

    Why cant YOU and others, rather than insist on playing mad scientist, accept GODs will, and accept the wishes of someone who made it very clear to 3 loved ones, that she had NO desire to be kept alive by a machine(s)?



    I'm willing to accept God's will, but you and Michael Schiavo scare me.

    And NO, she didn't make it "clear" to loved ones.  She purportedly made a casual comment to her in-laws, and an adulterous husband she was planning to leave.   Unhappily for you, temper tantrums and getting angry unfortunately do not make ambivalent situations any more straightforward.    

    Offline JohnChrysostom

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    Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
    « Reply #10 on: April 21, 2012, 07:38:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    Quote from: SJB
    "Secular medical equiptment?"


    What is modern medical equiptment used & relied upon FOR LIFE Itself, if not secular?  Would you call it Godly?

    Especially when the costs of that equiptment are Subsidized by the people, to sustain and preserve any life, artifically, by said machines.  I will call it secular type machinery.

    Why cant GODs will be done?

    Why cant YOU and others, rather than insist on playing mad scientist, accept GODs will, and accept the wishes of someone who made it very clear to 3 loved ones, that she had NO desire to be kept alive by a machine(s)?


    I would say medical equipment needs no distinction regarding secular and religious. You seem to be saying the equipment is contrary to good morals. I think the Church disagrees. Anyway, your infallible guide apears to be Fr. Cekada. I wonder if he knows such an ignoramous is on here "defending" him?


    You failed to answer the question.

    #4.  WHY do you feel the need to betray those that have made it clear, their desire to Not have their lives sustained/preserved  via artifical  Machinery, after being in a coma,  or a vegetative state?



    Offline ColdFusion

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    Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
    « Reply #11 on: April 21, 2012, 07:42:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    Quote from: SJB
    "Secular medical equiptment?"


    What is modern medical equiptment used & relied upon FOR LIFE Itself, if not secular?  Would you call it Godly?

    Especially when the costs of that equiptment are Subsidized by the people, to sustain and preserve any life, artifically, by said machines.  I will call it secular type machinery.

    Why cant GODs will be done?

    Why cant YOU and others, rather than insist on playing mad scientist, accept GODs will, and accept the wishes of someone who made it very clear to 3 loved ones, that she had NO desire to be kept alive by a machine(s)?


    I would say medical equipment needs no distinction regarding secular and religious. You seem to be saying the equipment is contrary to good morals. I think the Church disagrees. Anyway, your infallible guide apears to be Fr. Cekada. I wonder if he knows such an ignoramous is on here "defending" him?


    You failed to answer the question.

    #4.  WHY do you feel the need to betray those that have made it clear, their desire to Not have their lives sustained/preserved  via artifical  Machinery, after being in a coma,  or a vegetative state?



    Answer:  I don't.  She didn't make it clear.  I believe I was very clear that advance directives should be honored, where they exist.


    Offline JohnChrysostom

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    Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
    « Reply #12 on: April 21, 2012, 07:42:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: ColdFusion
    Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    Quote from: ColdFusion
    Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    With Fr. Cekada on this issue, I understand his thesis/premise.

    Why is it we must accept Modern/secular medical equiptment to prolong, sustain life, or to prevent Gods will?



    The bigger issue seems to me that once a decision is made to put someone ON such medical equiptment, that a bigger issue then faces the family.


    I dont undertand the other arguement.
    I think most are not well thought out, and are emoptional, knee jerk type responses to what really is GODs will.


    Either we all believe in medical equpitment, doctors, modern medicine or we accept GODs will in our decision on life, and We all have a WILL and instructions on WHAT to do IF we are ever in such a state, to not agonize a family with.


    How long and at what cost to society must another Terry Schiavo have before we allow GODs will to be done?  Hospital stays are $1000s per day.  SOmeone (Public) must pay for them.
    This isnt a Catholic hospital subsidy/gift as in the old days, it is another tax on all medical care, passed on to the populace.



    Nor should we make blanket statements regarding the use of such equipment.  Feeding tubes and life support equipment can and has saved an individual's life while the body heals itself.  Most people who have been on life support at some point are now walking around alive and well

    As far as the costs go, perhaps as Catholics we should be more concerned about government payments for transgender hormone therapies and surgeries and Viagra.

    In the Schiavo case, the her parents wanted to take her home, and the med mal settlement would have paid for all expenses on her behalf.   Thus costs are irrelevant in this case.  I must admit though, I do find it somewhat distasteful that one shoudl be given less of a chance at fighting for one's life because we as taxpayers do not want to pay for it, while we continue to contentedly pay for all other manner of atrocities.
     




    This person (Terri Schiavo) suffered Massive Brain trauma. Her body was not healing or in limbo.
    She had Massive trauama, a stroke, and was totally incapicitated, kept alive only by machines. Experimental surgery was tried by her husband and med staff early on, to no avail.

    She didnt break an arm or need a trach. She was for all intents and purposes brain dead, or very near to it.
    Costs are releveant when WE are all paying for a vegetable to be kept alive, artificially.

    Bottom line.
    She made her wishes KNOWN.

    She did NOT wish to have her life continued, BY Machines.
    Why cant you respect and honor that?!!![/b]


    1.  A casual comment is NOT an advanced directive.  I've already told you that there is NO contract legally binding through a casual comment.  And, AGAIN, why were these "wishes made known" not mentioned during the first trial, the one for the money?

    2.  Your declaration that Terri was brain dead is a one medical opinion, not a fact.  We do not know for certain her level of brain damage, and her husband had demonstrated clearly that he was not the person to decide for her.

    Why are you so insistent to put people to death without giving them a chance?  Should we disallow incubators next for premature babies?  


    IT is when it is told to 3 seperate Family members, a directive!

    It was enough of a directive for the Judge to also believe it a directive.

    She was in a vegetative state for crying out loud. If thats not brain dead, or close to it, what is?

    I have a nephew born at 25 weeks premature, that was kept alive only BY Machines.  
    Were it not for those machines, he would not be here.
    BUT,  He is impaired in every way, cognitivly, physically etc
    GOD intended for him to die without those machines.  Only Machines kept him alive and my sister will care for him, for the rest of her life, and has no objection to it of course.  
    But I sometimes think Machines are a curse in living a GODLY life.

    Offline JohnChrysostom

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    Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
    « Reply #13 on: April 21, 2012, 07:45:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: ColdFusion
    Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    Quote from: SJB
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    "Secular medical equiptment?"


    What is modern medical equiptment used & relied upon FOR LIFE Itself, if not secular?  Would you call it Godly?

    Especially when the costs of that equiptment are Subsidized by the people, to sustain and preserve any life, artifically, by said machines.  I will call it secular type machinery.

    Why cant GODs will be done?

    Why cant YOU and others, rather than insist on playing mad scientist, accept GODs will, and accept the wishes of someone who made it very clear to 3 loved ones, that she had NO desire to be kept alive by a machine(s)?


    I would say medical equipment needs no distinction regarding secular and religious. You seem to be saying the equipment is contrary to good morals. I think the Church disagrees. Anyway, your infallible guide apears to be Fr. Cekada. I wonder if he knows such an ignoramous is on here "defending" him?


    You failed to answer the question.

    #4.  WHY do you feel the need to betray those that have made it clear, their desire to Not have their lives sustained/preserved  via artifical  Machinery, after being in a coma,  or a vegetative state?



    Answer:  I don't.  She didn't make it clear.  I believe I was very clear that advance directives should be honored, where they exist.



    Terri Schiavo MOST Certainly DID make it clear.
    HER own Brother, Sister in Law, and Husband ALL testified, Under Oath to such a fact.

    Stop being difficult.  Answer the question.
    Who do you know wishes to be kept alive BY machines, artificially, after being in a coma or as a vegetable?
    WHO.


    Facts are facts and not debateable, But I want your response.
    I will expose your hypocrisy and you as a fraud as we go.

    Offline ColdFusion

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    Fr. Cekada, Euthanasia and the Terri Schiavo Affair
    « Reply #14 on: April 21, 2012, 07:53:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    Quote from: ColdFusion
    Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: JohnChrysostom
    Quote from: SJB
    "Secular medical equiptment?"


    What is modern medical equiptment used & relied upon FOR LIFE Itself, if not secular?  Would you call it Godly?

    Especially when the costs of that equiptment are Subsidized by the people, to sustain and preserve any life, artifically, by said machines.  I will call it secular type machinery.

    Why cant GODs will be done?

    Why cant YOU and others, rather than insist on playing mad scientist, accept GODs will, and accept the wishes of someone who made it very clear to 3 loved ones, that she had NO desire to be kept alive by a machine(s)?


    I would say medical equipment needs no distinction regarding secular and religious. You seem to be saying the equipment is contrary to good morals. I think the Church disagrees. Anyway, your infallible guide apears to be Fr. Cekada. I wonder if he knows such an ignoramous is on here "defending" him?


    You failed to answer the question.

    #4.  WHY do you feel the need to betray those that have made it clear, their desire to Not have their lives sustained/preserved  via artifical  Machinery, after being in a coma,  or a vegetative state?



    Answer:  I don't.  She didn't make it clear.  I believe I was very clear that advance directives should be honored, where they exist.



    Terri Schiavo MOST Certainly DID make it clear.
    HER own Brother, Sister in Law, and Husband ALL testified, Under Oath to such a fact.

    Stop being difficult.  Answer the question.
    Who do you know wishes to be kept alive BY machines, artificially, after being in a coma or as a vegetable?
    WHO.


    Facts are facts and not debateable, But I want your response.
    I will expose your hypocrisy and you as a fraud as we go.


    Yes.  Facts are facts.  They seem to make you angry.  How about that med mal case testimony?

    A casual comment to your in laws is NOT an advanced directive.  Period.
    Particularly when the in laws are not known for their integrity.

    I answered you:  Me.  I was very, very clear as to WHY - the machines offer a chance at recovery from trauma.  Predicting who will become a vegetable after a trauma is a very new science, in fact, determining who IS minimally conscious is in its infancy.  

    I did not say that those who are minimally conscious must be kept on life support indefinitely, nor do I blieve anything of the sort.   Provision of food and water are quite different.  The circuмstances are not regarding anybody on life support.