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Author Topic: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis  (Read 2165 times)

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Offline Praeter

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Offline CatholicInAmerica

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Re: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2020, 11:52:51 AM »
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  • I would never accept the opinion of an “orthodox”
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis
    « Reply #2 on: January 22, 2020, 01:00:48 PM »
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  • His rejection of sedevacantism led to embracing Orthodoxy.

    So the principles that militate AGAINST sedevacantism tend towards Orthodoxy.  This thoroughly impugns R&R by the implication that R&R leads to Orthodoxy.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis
    « Reply #3 on: January 22, 2020, 02:12:08 PM »
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  • His rejection of sedevacantism led to embracing Orthodoxy.

    So the principles that militate AGAINST sedevacantism tend towards Orthodoxy.  This thoroughly impugns R&R by the implication that R&R leads to Orthodoxy.
    I didn't watch it, but why does the fact that he's EO automatically mean that he isn't right about this.  It could theoretically be the case that SV leads to EO, but that EO is wrong, therefore some other position (either R + R or hermeneutic of continuity) simply has to be correct.

    I don't see why that isn't on principle possible. 

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis
    « Reply #4 on: January 22, 2020, 02:21:17 PM »
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  • The fellow in the OP video says that sedevacantism has a lot in common with Orthodoxy. That makes sense. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis
    « Reply #5 on: January 22, 2020, 02:21:45 PM »
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  • His rejection of sedevacantism led to embracing Orthodoxy.

    So the principles that militate AGAINST sedevacantism tend towards Orthodoxy.  This thoroughly impugns R&R by the implication that R&R leads to Orthodoxy.
    This^^. I am very, very familiar with Dyers arguments. He heavily promotes John Pontrello's book against SVism. 
    Dyer is extremely dishonest in his presentations. Like them or not, the Dimond's just destroy him here.
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis
    « Reply #6 on: January 22, 2020, 02:34:07 PM »
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  • It’s funny, of all the traditionalist groups, those of us who hold the sedevacantist position are always the most vilified, the most marginalized, the most demonized, and the most attacked by those both inside and outside of the Church. Granted, some dogmatic sedevacantists deserve the onslaught, but for the most part, the attacks are baseless, inappropriate, and lack the support of competent and approved theologians. This dumbbell in the video above apparently lost the faith and I never waste my time watching videos from schismatics. For a supposed Catholic to use a schismatic heretic to help prove his point, says all I need to know about him.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis
    « Reply #7 on: January 22, 2020, 02:43:35 PM »
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  • Sedevacantism flirts with schism. Eastern Orthodoxy is just the next logical step.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis
    « Reply #8 on: January 22, 2020, 03:02:27 PM »
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  • Sedevacantism flirts with schism. Eastern Orthodoxy is just the next logical step.
    Meg, do you even know what schism means?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis
    « Reply #9 on: January 22, 2020, 03:24:16 PM »
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  • I didn't watch it, but why does the fact that he's EO automatically mean that he isn't right about this.

    It certainly discredits him as a credible source for Catholic theology.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis
    « Reply #10 on: January 22, 2020, 03:26:39 PM »
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  • Sedevacantism flirts with schism. Eastern Orthodoxy is just the next logical step.

    If you look at his logic, it's the principles behind his REJECTION of sedevacantism that led him to Orthodoxy.  So, as usual, you have it exactly backwards.  He concludes that the Church is capable of substantial change ... as the R&R do ... and thereby embraces Orthodox thinking, as being akin to the principles of R&R regarding papal authority.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis
    « Reply #11 on: January 22, 2020, 03:29:57 PM »
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  • It’s funny, of all the traditionalist groups, those of us who hold the sedevacantist position are always the most vilified, the most marginalized, the most demonized, and the most attacked by those both inside and outside of the Church. Granted, some dogmatic sedevacantists deserve the onslaught, but for the most part, the attacks are baseless, inappropriate, and lack the support of competent and approved theologians. This dumbbell in the video above apparently lost the faith and I never waste my time watching videos from schismatics. For a supposed Catholic to use a schismatic heretic to help prove his point, says all I need to know about him.
    I think its less because Sede is (or isn't) the truth that everyone hates to admit, and more just that a lot of sedes are jerks.  Mind, I don't see a whole lot of jerky SVism on this forum, and I see more jerkiness from the R + R camp (which I'm probably closer to) but I see the opposite honestly most other places.  

    Like I've literally seen Dimond Bros types borderline literally excommunicate people for having friends that aren't up their level of orthodoxy.  It gets pretty cultic.

    Now I definitely think it can sometimes be unfair, and so I try to deal with each person on their own merits.  Also... like... just because a lot of adherents to a position can be jerks doesn't make them right.

    But I *do* think there's more going on here than just "people can't handle the truth."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis
    « Reply #12 on: January 22, 2020, 03:33:58 PM »
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  • It certainly discredits him as a credible source for Catholic theology.
    Unless of course you're a rabid anti-sedevacantist.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis
    « Reply #13 on: January 22, 2020, 03:44:18 PM »
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  • Meg, do you even know what schism means?

    Yes, I do. It's the sedes and sedewhatevers who disagree that sedesim flirts with schism. I expect that.

    The sedes and sedewhatevers deny that there is a Pope of the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox believe that either the Roman Pope has no jurisdiction or authority over them, or that there was never meant to be a Papacy in Rome which heads the entire Church. Take your pick. Either way, as the guy in OP video says, sedevacantism has a lot in common with the Eastern Orthodox.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Former Sedevacantist Exposes the Fatal Flaws in the Sedevacantist Thesis
    « Reply #14 on: January 22, 2020, 03:47:42 PM »
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  • This^^. I am very, very familiar with Dyers arguments. He heavily promotes John Pontrello's book against SVism.
    Dyer is extremely dishonest in his presentations. Like them or not, the Dimond's just destroy him here.

    I watched 20 minutes of this video and have to give credit to the Dimonds for exposing Dyer. Thanks for posting it. I’ve never heard of this particular heretic, but I am familiar with the unimpressive heretic Pontrello. From what I remember, Pontrello changed his religion multiple times also. For the OP to use Dyer as a source to refute sedevacantism, is really pathetic and speaks volumes.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?