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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Mr G on September 09, 2018, 05:23:28 PM

Title: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Mr G on September 09, 2018, 05:23:28 PM
https://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2018/09/exclusive-radtrad-thomist-has-gotten.html

FOREWORD TO VOLUME ONE
     The importance of the question of papal heresy is of far greater importance than one might first think; especially because since Pastor Aeternus, it has been most commonly held by theologians that a pope cannot fall into formal heresy. If a man who is generally believed to hold the papal office were to manifest himself to be an obstinate heretic; the question would arise as to whether he could simply be declared to have already fallen from office ipso jure by the Catholic hierarchy, who would then elect a new pope; or would he need to be juridically convicted in a penal process and deposed. If he were to lose office automatically (ipso jure) upon manifesting pertinacity in heresy; then Catholics would have the right to refuse him recognition as pope, as well as refusing to be subject to his governance. The cardinals would only need to declare his forfeiture of office to have taken place by his defection from the Catholic faith, and then elect a new pope. Among theologians who admit at least the hypothetical possibility that a pope could fall into formal heresy, that has actually been the common opinion for more than a century. In the latter case, however, if the heretic pope would need to be juridically deposed in order to bring about his fall from office; then the heretic’s removal from office would depend first of all on the question of whether or not he could be deposed at all; and if yes, it would have to be determined by what juridical procedure he could be validly deprived of office. 
     The reason why it has been the most commonly held opinion of theologians that a true pope cannot fall into formal heresy and be judged a heretic, and that the latter of the two opinions has been abandoned, is that the text of that above mentioned dogmatic constitution (Pastor Aeternus), in defining the dogma of papal infallibility, premised that extraordinary charism on the promise of the divine Saviour Jesus Christ made to Peter and his successors, that their faith would not fail. It is self-evident that if the pope’s faith cannot fail, then he cannot become a formal heretic, because one only becomes a formal heretic when one’s faith fails. However, before the dogmatic definition was pronounced in 1870, it was not so clear in the minds of all theologians what exactly was meant by the unfailing faith of Peter and his successors as the prerequisite disposition for exercising the charism of infallibility. In the Middle Ages there was not even a clear understanding of the doctrine of papal infallibility in the minds of most theologians; but infallibility was commonly understood to be exercised in the solemn professions and definitions of the whole Church represented in a general council. So it comes as no surprise, that the infallible “faith of Peter” was understood to be the faith of the whole Church represented by the successor of Peter; and therefore, the unfailing faith of Peter was thought to be that of the Roman Pontiff together with the bishops in an ecuмenical council, manifested in the solemn pronouncements of a council. While the notion can be shown to be logically incoherent (as I demonstrate in the main body of this volume), and was already thoroughly refuted by St. Robert Bellarmine in Caput iii Liber iv of De Romano Pontifice, it was on the basis of such a conception as this, that the theory eventually became prevalent, according to which, in matters of faith, the authority of a council would be greater than that of a pope teaching as an individual; and consequently, the next step in the development of the theory was that that a council, even without the pope, would have the juridical authority to judge the case of a heretic pope. The Fifth Lateran Council destroyed the foundation of this theory when it solemnly defined the absolute authority of the pope over a council, yet Counter-Reformation theologians attempted to circuмvent that ruling by appealing to the spurious Canon si papa as the basis for considering the case of papal heresy as an exception to the principle of the injudicability of the pope. The pope, it was believed, could be judged, by way of exception, in the case of heresy; because, (it was claimed) that a council would not be exercising power over the pope, but only over the conjunction between the man and the office of the pontificate. The flaw in this reasoning consists in the fact that such a theory still held that a juridical judgment which would exercise power over the conjunction between the man and the office would require a judgment to be pronounced upon the pope himself, while still in office, by his inferiors in order for him to fall from office for heresy. It also failed to provide a sufficient doctrinal basis that would establish only heresy as the sole exception to the principle of the injudicability of the pope; since, if one exception is admitted, other exceptions cannot be logically excluded. Thus, the opinion can be seen to clearly oppose the solemn definition of the Fifth Lateran Council, that a pope possesses absolute authority over a council (which logically excludes any exception); and directly opposes the dogmatic definition of the First Vatican Council, which, in declaring that the pope is the supreme judge in all cases, dogmatically established the absolute injudicability of the Roman Pontiff, for which there can be no exception.  Nevertheless, the theory which can be seen to have already been proximate to heresy after the pronouncement of the Fifth Lateran Council, was tolerated, and even persisted and survived until the late nineteenth century. The final nail in its coffin was hammered into the errant theory by the definition of the primacy, which solemnly pronounced that the pope is the supreme authority “in all cases that refer to ecclesiastical examination”; so that the proposition which held that a reigning pope while still in office could be judged by his inferiors, could be seen to be heretical, in that it directly opposes the doctrine set forth in the definition, whose wording logically excludes all possibility of allowing any exception to the rule, “The First See is judged by no one.”.
     The theory, which holds that the pope, while still in office, can be judged and deposed for heresy; whether the deposition be considered as a proper act of juridical deposition, or as an act of removal of one who is considered jure divino removable upon having been judged guilty of the crime of heresy by competent ecclesiastical authority, and as a consequence of that judgment to have fallen from office ipso facto; has, since the time shortly after the First Vatican Council, been unanimously rejected by theologians, since it could be clearly seen, in the light of the absolute supremacy and injudicability of the pope set forth in solemn definition of the primacy, to be contrary to the faith of the Church. Likewise, the belief that a true and valid pope could even fall into formal heresy was generally abandoned after Pastor Aeternus taught that St. Peter and his successors were given the grace of unfailing faith as a requisite disposition for exercising the charism of papal infallibility. St. Robert Bellarmine had also forcefully argued this point in Caput iii Liber iv of De Romano Pontifice; but it was only after the support it received from Pastor Aeternus, that Bellarmine’s position on the question became the opinio communissima.  Since then it has been the nearly unanimous opinion of theologians that a pope cannot fall into formal heresy. While in the Middle Ages it was the far more common opinion among theologians and canonists that a pope could fall into formal heresy, and that he could be judged for heresy by a council; conversely by the time of the Tridentine and post-Tridentine period, the great Counter-Reformation doctors, such as Cajetan, Bellarmine, Suarez, and John of St. Thomas, were of the opinion that a pope cannot become a formal heretic, and therefore considered the question of papal heresy as a mere hypothesis. 
     Today, more than a century after the opinion that a heretical pope could be judged while still holding office and deposed by the Church had been discarded and totally abandoned by theologians, since that opinion was clearly seen to oppose the dogmatic pronouncements of the magisterium; that opinion has resurfaced in some quarters, due to the doctrinal heterodoxy of the “Conciliar Popes” – i.e. the popes, beginning with John XXIII up to the present, who have all, without exception, distinguished themselves in the most dubious manner but in different degrees – having deviated from the rule of faith in their opinions and pronouncements. It is due, in no small measure, to the deceptive sophistry of the Conciliar Church propagandists, John Salza and Robert Siscoe, that this heretical opinion, which holds that a pope while still in office can be judged by his inferiors in the Church, has experienced a recrudescence; and ironically, it is in the sector of the Church where the most careful attention to doctrinal rectitude is usually found, i.e. among the traditionalists, that this errant theory, which can be seen to be heretical in the light of Pastor Aeternus, has been resurrected.
     In his book, Contra Cekadam, the learned and highly respected rector of the Hearts of Jesus and Mary Seminary, Fr. François Chazal, has adopted the opinion of John of St. Thomas on the question of deposition of a manifest heretic pope from office. It was the opinion of John of St. Thomas that one who is manifestly a formal heretic would not fall from the papal office ipso facto; but would remain in office as pope until convicted of heresy by a council, and then would only fall from office upon being declared vitandus by the council. This is the fourth of the five opinions outlined by St. Robert Bellarmine in Book II of his De Romano Pontifice. Bellarmine utterly demolished this opinion in his refutation of it in chapter 30, and his own opinion (the fifth opinion) that a manifest heretic pope would straightaway fall from office ipso facto, was eventually incorporated into the 1917 Code of Canon Law (Canon 188 n. 4); and remains in force in the 1983 Code. According to Canon 188 n. 4, one who publicly defects from the faith automatically falls from whatsoever office ipso jure. In this volume I have demonstrated that this position is indeed, as Bellarmine called it, “the true opinion” beyond all shadow of doubt, and beyond any legitimate dispute. Unfortunately, since Fr. Chazal is refuting a sedevacantist in his work, he relies too heavily on the thoroughly dishonest scholarship of Salza & Siscoe in their fraudulent diatribe against Sedevacantism, True or False Pope? This unfortunate reliance, which is undoubtedly due to its being the most exhaustive exposition published on Sedevacantism to date, is plainly discernible in Bishop Richard Williamson’s comments on Fr. Chazal’s brief work.
     Since it is a work against Sedevacantism, Msgr. Williamson points out that the sedevacantists’ “favourite theologian is St Robert Bellarmine who held that any Pope becoming a heretic automatically ceases to be Pope.” Indeed, according to Bellarmine, if it be possible for a valid pope to become a manifest heretic, he would automatically cease to be pope ipso facto by the act of formal heresy; because, according to the unanimous teaching of the Fathers and the doctrine of St. Thomas Aquinas, the sin of heresy is per se an act of separation by which heretics separate themselves from the body of the Church, and therefore lose office automatically, i.e. ipso facto. But on this point, Bishop Williamson (like Fr. Chazal) is clearly led astray by the fraudulent argumentation of Salza & Siscoe when he says, “But Fr. Chazal opens the books and finds that this opinion is by no means the common opinion of Church theologians”. As I docuмent in this work, it is now the unanimous opinion today among theologians who admit at least the hypothetical possibility that a pope can fall into formal heresy – and has been for more than a century, that a pope who would fall into manifestly formal heresy would immediately cease to be pope. Fr. Chazal citation of the Dictionaire de Théologie  Catholique is to no avail: The authors merely state their belief that “The opinion of Bellarmine is in no way [a aucun titre] guaranteed by the Church, nor adopted by the whole body of theologians.” (Tome VII, col. 1714 – 1717) The dissident opinion of this single work, does not diminish in the least the moral unanimity of theologians, and especially of canonists, who rightly understand that Bellarmine’s opinion on this point is guaranteed by the Church’s supreme and ordinary magisterium, expressed in Canon 188 n. 4, which is an expression of the magisterial doctrine of the Church. The canons of the 1917 Code are not merely a collection of statutes; but they set forth with precision the canonical doctrine of the Church on its most important points. This is a feature that is notably absent from the 1983 Code, which is based on the canonical doctrinal tradition enshrined in the 1917 Code, and which did not need to be repeated in the revised Code of 1983. Canonical doctrine pertains to Canon Law as a theological discipline in its own right; and thus, is a legitimate branch of theology, as Canon Law professor, Fr. Rafael Moya O.P. explained in his Canon Law lectures at the Angelicuм. The canonical doctrine that all ecclesiastical offices without exception are lost by public defection from the faith automatically, and without any declaration, is plainly stated in Canon 188 n. 4. The theological foundation of this doctrine is that manifest heretics separate themselves from the Church by themselves, and as a direct consequence of that separation, lose office, as I explain in this work.
     The bishop then elaborates: 
For indeed, as many other famous theologians argue, the Pope is not just an individual who can lose the faith personally, but he is also head of a worldwide society which cannot function without a head. Nor does the personal loss of faith necessarily impede his headship of the Church. Therefore they argue, for the sake of the Church as a whole, God preserves the Pope's headship until the highest competent Church authorities can make a public declaration of his heresy (to prevent public chaos in the Church), and then and only then does God depose him.
     The argument is an old argument, thoroughly refuted by St. Robert Bellarmine, and generally discarded after Pastor Aeternus dogmatically pronounced the absolute injudicability of the Roman Pontiff in its solemn definition of the primacy. It is an abandoned opinion. Bishop Williamson continues:
Sedevacantists also love Canon 188.4 which states that public defection from the faith on the part of a cleric means automatic loss of his office. But many other Canons and the other sections of Canon 188 clearly show that this “public defection” must include the cleric's intent to resign by such acts as, for instance, attempting marriage or joining a sect, and also there must be a warning and official monitions before the cleric loses his office.
     This is a spurious argument coming straight out of the Salza & Siscoe screed, which I thoroughly refute in this work. The argument is founded on the false premise that loss of ecclesiastical office due to heresy takes place because heresy is a crime against the unity of the Church; and because it is a crime, it falls under the jurisdiction of the Church; and therefore loss of office cannot occur before the heretic has been juridically judged by the Church. For this reason, they argue, the heretic does not lose office without a public judgment pronounced by Church authority. Loss of ecclesiastical office, according to their argument, is a penalty inflicted by the authority of the Church for the crime of heresy. It does not pertain to the nature of a crime as such that the act itself, by its nature, separates one from the Church or causes the loss of office; but for the commission of a crime, one is severed from the body of the Church and is deprived of ecclesiastical office by means of a canonical penalty.  Hence, Salza & Siscoe consider loss of office to be essentially a matter pertaining to ecclesiastical penal law – i.e., it is a penalty, “a severe vindictive penalty” for the delict or crime of heresy.  I provide the verbatim texts of the most authoritative commentaries on Canon Law which explain that loss of office for heresy is not a penalty for a crime; but on the contrary, the fact of public defection into heresy brings about the automatic loss of office without any regard to penal provisions of law; and therefore, without warnings; without any declaration by ecclesiastical authority, and without any intent on the part of the heretic to resign his office. The reason why this is so is that public heresy in its very nature is a sin opposed to faith, and therefore against the unity of the Church; which therefore, as a necessary consequence and by its very nature, visibly severs one from the body of the Church and directly brings about the loss of ecclesiastical office. 
     Indeed, it is explained by the expert commentators on Canon Law that the law presumes tacit resignation and statutes the loss of office solely on the basis of the public fact of the officeholder’s defection from the faith into heresy by obstinately denying or doubting an article of faith – without joining any other sect, without explicitly rejecting the ecclesiastical magisterium as the rule of faith, without any explicit admission of heresy, and without canonical warnings. The fact of public defection into formal heresy suffices by itself for the loss of office to occur, and therefore, there is no need whatever for ecclesiastical authority to “establish the crime” for loss of office to take place; or for that fact to be established in conformity with all the specifications of penal law as a crime notorious by fact. The forfeiture of ecclesiastical office for heresy has nothing to do whatever with the penal laws of the Church, but takes place as a direct consequence of public heresy itself as an act of visible separation from the Church. 
     The subterfuge of Salza & Siscoe in their book was to studiously ignore the expert comments on the actual canon in question on loss of office for heresy, and instead, they interpret Canon 188 n.4 according to the comments on the penal canons in the penal section of the Code, which regulate penal deprivation of office, and are separate from, and not concerned with, and in fact, explicitly uphold the non-penal canons on tacit resignation from office. Such is the devious trickery of John Salza and Robert Siscoe, who falsely state in their book that loss of office is a “severe vindictive penalty” for the “crime of heresy”. Loss of office, simply stated, is not a penal censure for a crime. In the 1917 Code of Canon Law, and in the revised Code of 1983, loss of office for heresy is strictly a measure pertaining to administrative law, and not to penal law; and it is founded on the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, the doctrine of St. Robert Bellarmine, don Pietro Ballerini, Bartolomeo Cappellari (Pope Gregory XVI), and St. Thomas Aquinas – none of whom teach that such loss of office is a penalty for a crime, but who all teach that the loss of office for heresy takes place as a direct consequence of heresy, because heresy is a sin which per se severs one from the body of the Church. Heresy, whether public or secret, whether internal or external, in its very nature is a sin, because it directly opposes the theological virtue of faith. Heresy, because it is a sin against faith, is a schismatic act against the unity of the Church. That the heretic is severed from the body of the Church “by the very nature of heresy”, and not “by legitimate authority”, i.e. as the penalty for a crime, is taught explicitly by Pius XII in Mystici Corporis, in unison with the universal and ordinary magisterium of the Church. Hence, the loss of ecclesiastical office for heresy takes place not as a penal sanction for a delict against any ecclesiastical law, but, in Bellarmine’s words, “ex natura haeresis”, as the direct consequence of the heretic’s having visibly severed himself from the body of the Church.  This is what Bellarmine teaches De Romano Pontifice, lib ii caput xxx; and he states explicitly, “the Holy Fathers teach in unison, that not only are heretics outside the Church, but they even lack all Ecclesiastical jurisdiction and dignity ipso facto.” I provide an in depth exposition on defection from the faith and the Church, and on loss of office for heresy in this volume.
     The problem with Fr. Chazal and Bishop Williamson is that they have relied too much on the skewed and sometimes even fraudulently altered data provided by Salza & Siscoe; which presents only opinions of theologians from the Middle Ages up to just before Vatican I; and deliberately twists or entirely leaves out all mention of the post-Vatican teaching. Vatican I dogmatically defined that the pope is the supreme judge in all cases that refer to ecclesiastical examination. Since then (1870) the unanimous teaching of theologians is that the pope is injudicable; and the Church teaches this in her canonical doctrine and in the canons themselves; and thus, it is taught unanimously in the approved commentaries on the Codes of Canon Law, in accordance with the constant teaching of the popes, that the pope, while in office, is absolutely immune from the judgment of anyone, and therefore simply cannot be judged. Canon 188 n. 4 also states explicitly that those who publicly defect from the faith lose any office whatsoever (quaelibet officia), automatically (ipso facto and ipso jure), and therefore, “without any declaration” (sine ulla declaratione) from the Church. The most authoritative commentaries on Canon Law explain that the loss of office (including the papal office) depends exclusively on the fact of public defection into formal heresy; and hence, independently of the opinions and judgments of anyone. The vacancy occurs ipso jure; and the competent authority merely declares it juridically after the fact. Thus, the question of how one, (including the pope if that were possible), who falls into manifestly formal heresy would lose ecclesiastical office, is no longer a matter of opinion. Since the publication of the 1917 Code of Canon Law the question is closed. Fr. Chazal's opinion was still permissible before Vatican I and the codification of canon law; but now, his opinion is contrary to the magisterium of the Church, as I have proven in Part I of the first volume of this work.
     In spite its major flaws, Msgr. Williamson points out the one partially redeeming merit to Fr. Chazal’s critique of Sedevacantism in his comment:
Fr Cekada argues as though sedevacantism is not merely one opinion in a difficult and highly disputed question. He presents it as a dogmatic certainty, to refuse which means that one is not Catholic. Fr Chazal has a measure of sympathy for sedevacantists (he prefers them to liberals), and he shows charity towards Fr Cekada, but the great merit of “Contra Cekadam” is that he proves to any reasonable reader that, at the very least, no Catholic is obliged to accept the sedevacantist position. Fr Cekada writes as though he is a master of theology and of Canon Law, but Fr Chazal has looked up the theologians and the Canons in question and he proves that they are far from proving that the See of Rome has been vacant at any time since Vatican II.
     This consideration, although important, can hardly justify Bishop Williamson’s comment on Fr. Chazal’s study: “Fr Cekada's arguments and opinions have acted like the grain of sand inside an oyster, which by the irritation which it produces makes the oyster produce a pearl.” Unfortunately, the “pearl” is severely flawed, and in places fatally flawed. The main flaw is that Fr. Chazal attempts to refute Fr. Cekada’s opinion by attacking his foundational premise, which is that public heretics automatically lose office. The premise in question, is correct. However, rather than accepting the correct premise, and exposing the logical incoherence of Fr. Cekada’s application of that principle to arrive at his conclusion – a non sequitur conclusion, Fr. Chazal argues against the correct premise by attacking it with his own misapplication of provisions of penal law to a non-penal canon in a different section of the Code; and hence, fails to refute Fr.Cekada’s opinion on the nature of loss of office. The correct refutation of the Sedevacantist argument is made by pointing out their misapplication of a prescription of penal law to the administrative provisions of Canon 188 n. 4. Sedevacantists presume on the basis of Canon 2200 §2, that the Conciliar Popes are manifest heretics who have defected from the Catholic faith, and therefore lose office if ever they were validly elected. The canon reads, “When an external violation of the law has been committed, malice is presumed in the external forum until the contrary is proven.” The expert commentary of Fr. Eric MacKenzie explains, “The very commission of any act which signifies heresy, e.g., the statement of some doctrine contrary or contradictory to a revealed and defined dogma, gives sufficient ground for juridical presumption of heretical depravity… Excusing circuмstances have to be proved in the external forum, and the burden of proof is on the person whose action has given rise to the imputation of heresy. In the absence of such proof, all such excuses are presumed not to exist.” What is set forth in the canon is a provision of penal law. The accused is presumed guilty of the crime on the basis of the fact of his having committed a criminal act, and therefore he bears the onus to prove his innocence – “In the absence of such proof, all such excuses are presumed not to exist.” A penal sentence of guilt is arrived at on the basis of a presumption of guilt. For the administrative provisions of Canon 188 n. 4, a presumption of guilt does not suffice, because the canon statutes the loss of office not on the basis of a presumption of guilt, but either on the evidence of the manifest and patent fact of one openly leaving the Church, or, if the heretic still maintains the pretence of being a Catholic, the evidence of the manifestly patent public fact of the pertinacity; i.e., the dolus or culpa of formal heresy. For the guilt of formal heresy to be manifest, the condition stated in Canon 2197 3º must be fulfilled, that the act be committed under such circuмstances that by no subterfuge can the guilt be hidden, nor can there be any excuse for it extracted from the law :  “et in talibus adiunctis commissum, ut nulla tergiversatione celari nulloque iuris suffragio excusari possit”. The act must also be public, as public is defined in Canon 2197  1º, that it either be already divulged, or that it have been committed under such circuмstance that it can be prudently judged that it soon will be divulged. (Publicuм, si iam divulgatum est aut talibus contigit seu versatur in adiunctis ut prudenter iudicari possit et debeat facile divulgatum iri) It is only if these conditions have been fulfilled, that it can be seen to be morally certain that defection from the faith has occurred, and that the guilty individual has therefore lost office. 
      Regarding the interpretation of Canon 188 n. 4 on Tacit Resignation of Office due to public defection from the Catholic faith, Fr. Chazal cites the opinion of Vermeersch as his authority for adding restrictive qualifications to what is stated in an unqualified manner in the text of the canon. The cited passage reads, “One defects from the faith who denies its foundation pertinaciously, or who by some precise fact (facto factove) destroys all bond with the Catholic religion, for instance, by adhering to a heretical or a schismatic sect.” (Epitome Iuris Canonici, I, p. 190) Vermeersch wrongly defined defection from the faith as a pertinacious denial of the foundation of the faith, or the destruction of all bond with the Catholic religion. Now, as is fully explained if the first part of this volume, the formal cause of the virtue of faith is the authority of the revealing God ( Pius XI, Mortalium Animos); and therefore, St. Thomas teaches that “the formal object of faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) is the First Truth, as manifested in Holy Writ (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/index.html) and the teaching of the Church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm), which proceeds from the First Truth. Consequently whoever does not adhere, as to an infallible (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm) and Divine rule, to the teaching of the Church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm), which proceeds from the First Truth manifested in Holy Writ (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/index.html), has not the habit (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07099b.htm) of faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm), but holds that which is of faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) otherwise than by faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm).” (II – II, Q. 5, a. 3) For this reason he says in the same article, “Neither living nor lifeless faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) remains in a heretic (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm) who disbelieves one article of faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm).” Thus, defection from the Catholic faith already takes place in a simple act of formal heresy by obstinately denying even one article of faith, because heresy directly and per se opposes faith (IIª-IIae q. 39 a. 1); and for this reason, Pius XII teaches in Mystici Corporis that heresy by its very nature separates one from the body of the Church; and thus, heretics “have miserably severed themselves” from membership in the Church. Since public heretics place themselves outside the Church entirely by their own actions, they necessarily forfeit any office they held inside the Church by their own actions. Bellarmine proves that such a forfeiture for heresy is taught unanimously by the Fathers. Accordingly, therefore, Canon 188 n. 4 statutes an automatic loss of office without any declaration.
      It is therefore patent that the opinion, that only pertinacious denial of the foundation of the faith constitutes a defection from the faith, and not pertinacious heresy per se, is indefensible, and is a grave error against the doctrine of the universal magisterium. One can only wonder how he would have argued the point to arrive at this gratuitously stated conclusion. The automatic loss of office prescribed in Canon 188 n. 4 is founded on the doctrine that heretics defect from the Church when they publicly defect from the faith into heresy; and therefore, they lose office as a direct and immediate consequence of their own actions. Not only was this proven by Bellarmine to be the unanimous consensus of the Fathers, but it was theologically proven by St. Thomas; and in Mystici Corporis, Pius XII taught the universal Church that defection from the faith and the Church is already fully accomplished suapte natura by the sin of manifest heresy. Perhaps Fr. Vermeersch could be excused for having taught his errant doctrine before the promulgation of Mystici Corporis in 1943, but today, there exists no possible excuse to adhere to such a grave doctrinal error. 
     In the continuation of the passage, Vermeersch says, “The delict is public, when it is notorious to the greater part of the community or can soon be known”. From this it seems likely that Vermeersch, who explicitly refers to the act of defection as a delict, made the mistake of interpreting a canon in the administrative section of the Code according to the prescriptions of canons in the penal section, i.e. Canon 2314. It is easy enough to understand why Vermeersch would fall into this error in his day, so soon after the promulgation of the 1917 Code; since in the pre-1917 legislation, a form of penal deprivation of office had been prescribed for such a defection. The canonical innovation of Canon 188 n. 4 was to bring the law of the Church in line with the Patristic doctrine on automatic loss of office for defection from the faith into heresy or schism, which Bellarmine explained takes place not by any human law, but ex natura haeresis. The penal process prescribed in Canon 2314 begins with attempts to correct the suspected offender with admonitions, and ends with punishments for the crimes if the warnings go pertinaciously unheeded, such as the added censure of infamy and deposition; and for joining other sects, ipso facto infamy, and finally degradation if the warnings go unheeded. The penal process prescribed in Canon 2314 ends with the punishment of the defector. The administrative measures of Canon 188 n. 4 begin with an already completed public defection; and for this reason, there are no warnings, and no attempts at correction, but the canon simply statutes an ipso facto loss of office on the basis of the already accomplished fact of the public defection. 
     Fr. Chazal erroneously argues that, «Canonists integrate 2314 and other canons to 188.4 like Fr. Ayrinhac: “If they have formally affiliated with a non-Catholic sect, or publicly adhere to it, they incur ipso facto the note of infamy. Clerics lose all ecclesiastical office they might hold (Canon 188.4), and after a fruitless warning they should be deposed.” (Penal Legislation, p. 193, 1920) » Actually, the canonists do exactly the opposite: they do not integrate penal procedures prescribed in penal canons to the administrative process prescribed in canon 188 n. 4 (which is impossible); because they are two different processes which follow their own prescribed procedures. Rather, what the canonists do is they harmonize the distinctly different procedures prescribed in penal law with those prescribed in the administrative section. Thus, Fr. Aryinhac explains that by affiliating themselves with a non-Catholic sect, clerics not only lose office ipso facto by tacit resignation (can. 188), but they also incur the penal censure of infamy; and after fruitless warnings, they are to be meted out the vindictive penalty of deposition (can. 2314). If they heed the warnings and repent, the clerics can be allowed to retain the offices which they had lost by undeclared tacit resignation; but if they do not repent, then they must be deposed according to the penal prescription. If the superiors perceive that the defection has been perpetrated and completed in such an egregious manner that all warnings and admonitions would be seen to be a pointless exercise in futility; then, an administrative declaration of the clerics tacit resignation would juridically suffice to effect his removal, without having to resort to penal measures.
     There is no reason that would necessitate an exhaustive point by point correction of all the errors in Fr. Chazal’s short work; since their correction is already contained in principle in the main arguments I elaborate in this volume. Hence, I will limit myself here to only one more example. In the section on Universal Peaceful Acceptance, Fr. Chazal cites the Constitution, Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis of Pius XII, and two canons of the 1917 Code of Canon Law on acceptance of the papal election in a sense that is contrary to the letter of their obvious meaning. Fr. Chazal erroneously construes the acceptance referred to in these texts as the pope’s acceptance by the cardinals and by the universal Church; whereas the text of the Constitution speaks explicitly of the consensus electithe consent of the pope-elect to become pope. The Constitution prescribes that in the presence of the cardinal electors, the Cardinal Deacon must ask the pope-elect, “Acceptasne electionem de te canonice factam in Summum Pontificem?” (Do you accept your election canonically made as supreme Pontiff?) The Constitution then continues, “Hoc consensu praestito intra terminum, quatenus opus sit, prudenti arbitrio Cardinalium per maiorem votorum numerum determinandum, illico electus est verus Papa, atque actu plenam absolutamque iurisdictionem supra totum orbem acquirit et exercere potest [73 (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/la/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_p-xii_apc_19451208_vacantis-apostolicae-sedis.html#_ftn73)].” What this simply states, is that once his consent is given (within the time limit determined if need be by a majority vote of the cardinals) from that instant he is constituted as the true pope with full and absolute jurisdiction over the whole world. It is precisely in this sense that the passage is expertly translated by the Canon Law Faculty of Salamanca in their commentary on page 880: “Si el elegido presta su consentimiento, desde aquel mismo instante queda constituído verdadero Papa con plena y absoluta jurisdicción sobre todo el orbe”. Thus, the docuмent does not say, as Fr. Chazal claims, «that as soon as the consent of the cardinals is given “the elect is immediately a true pope, and acquire by the very fact and exercise a full and absolute jurisdiction on the whole world (canon 219)”. Once elected, he must be accepted …» Rather, the Constitution says exactly the opposite, and speaks explicitly of the consent of the pope- elect, upon which he receives full power and jurisdiction; and not the other way around, as if there were any further need for the consent the cardinals who already expressed their consent by electing him.  Likewise, the canons he mentions (109 and 219) do not refer a need for general acceptance of the pope's election by the faithful for him to validly assume the papal office; nor do they refer to an acceptance by the electing cardinals to ratify the election after the pope's own acceptance of it; but canon 109 explicitly rules out the need for any external acceptance by the faithful or anyone else to ratify the election (non ex populi vel potestatis saecularis consensu aut vocatione adleguntur). What these canons statute is that once the cardinals elect the candidate, he validly becomes pope when he accepts his election to the papacy. Canon 219 states that he immediately receives his full jurisdiction by divine law upon his election and his acceptance of his own election; since he also has the right to refuse his election to the supreme pontificate. It is explicitly stated in canon 109 that clerics in general validly assume office jure divino, 1) in virtue of the sacrament of orders; and, 2) either by their canonical mission; or for the pope, who, unlike other clerics, (who receive their canonical mission from their superiors), the pope validly assumes his office upon his being elected, and upon his acceptance of his election to the office. This is plainly explained in the 1952 commentary of the Pontifical Canon Law Faculty of Salamanca in its comment of the section “On Election”, and specifically on Canon 160, “Romani Pontificis electio …”, in which it distinguishes between  elections which need to be confirmed by a superior, or an election which is completed by the elected one’s acceptance (completándose la provisión por la acceptación del elegido).
     The pope-elect is not a valid pope until he accepts the munus; which the canons say is validly received jure divino without the consent of anyone else. How Fr. Chazal gets the idea that these canons prescribe a necessity ad validitatam of a post-election acceptance by the faithful or by the cardinals can only be the result of an inattentive reading of canon 109 which explicitly rules out the need for any such post-election general acceptance. Likewise, canon 219 quite obviously refers only to the pope-elect's own acceptance of his election in order to validly become pope by divine law, since only his own consent and no one else's is required ad validitatem after the election has taken place. The mere fact alone that the cardinals have elected a man to be pope manifests their acceptance of his election to the papacy. Once he accepts his own election, the canon says he immediately receives full papal jurisdiction  jure divino (statim ab acceptata electione obtinet, iure divino, plenam supremae iurisdictionis potestatem); and therefore, because he immediately receives his power directly from God, he validly assumes the papacy without any need for further ratification by the cardinals or any other of his subjects.
     At the opposite extreme to the error that a pope can be judged by his subjects, is the opinion that any man who is uncritically accepted by the general public as pope, is therefore to be considered a valid pope who is incapable of falling into formal heresy. This is an accurate description of the opinion of Emmett O’Regan, who believes that Jorge “Francis” Bergoglio is the valid occupant of the Chair of Peter, and being the pope of Rome, is incapable of being a heretic. In his article, The Heretical Pope Fallacy, he manifests his bias in the opening sentence, saying, “One of the most prevalent themes currently being circulated in some extreme quarters of Catholicism revolves around the manner in which a heretical pope could be removed from the papacy.” So, for Mr. O’Regan, anyone who would even think of removing a Modernist heretical intruder from the throne of Peter is to be considered an extremist. O’Regan attributes the interest in the question to “the belief that either Pope Francis has already committed heresy at various points throughout the Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia, or that he has been openly promoting an heretical interpretation of this docuмent”.  He then offers the observation that, “One area which has been greatly neglected in this debate is whether or not a pope actually can fall into formal heresy or teach false doctrines by way of the authentic papal Magisterium.” 
     I demonstrate in this volume that the proposition, that “a pope actually can fall into formal heresy”, is proximate to heresy, but it is not de fide; and the first Vatican Council, as the Gasser Relation states quite unequivocally, did not intend to define on this point. On the other hand, the proposition that a pope can “teach false doctrines by way of the authentic papal Magisterium”, has always been generally accepted by theologians, even by Don Pietro Ballerini; and even after the definition on papal infallibility by the First Vatican Council, not only theologians, but even docuмents of the supreme magisterium admit that pronouncements of the authentic papal magisterium are not infallible, such as Lumen Gentium 25, which distinguishes between ex cathedra pronouncements which are infallible, and “the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra” – which is not infallible. With this consideration in mind, we can already dismiss as erroneous Mr. O’Regan’s somewhat imprecisely formulated statement that, “As we shall see, according to the Fathers of the First Vatican Council, the idea of an heretical pope was definitively ruled out through the formal dogmatization of St. Robert Bellarmine’s ideas on the indefectibility of the Church.” The First Vatican Council did no such thing: It did not formally dogmatize Bellarmine’s “ideas on  the indefectibility of the Church” – but only dogmatized his fourth opinion: «Quarta sententia est quodammodo in medio. Pontificem, sive haereticus esse possit, sive non, non posse ullo modo definire aliquid haereticuм a tota Ecclesia credendum: haec est communissima opinio fere omnium Catholicorum». According to this opinion, the pope, regardless of whether or not he can be a heretic, cannot in any manner define something heretical for the whole Church to believe – and this opinion, says the Holy Doctor, is the most common opinion among all Catholics. This proposition concerns only the solemn ex cathedra definitions of the papal extraordinary magisterium, but does not extend to the pronouncements of the authentic papal magisterium, which is non-infallible. The pope’s pronouncements made when exercising his authentic magisterium in the sense that this term is used in canon 752, can contain errors, and therefore do not require an absolute assent. This point is discussed in Part III of this volume, in my exposition on Bellarmine’s refutation of the second opinion on the deposition of a heretical pope.
     O’Regan’s observation, “According to the Official Relatio of Vatican I, which was issued in an address to the Council Fathers by Bishop Vincent Ferrer Gasser on 11th July, 1870 … the debate concerning the possibility of an heretical pope was about to be definitively settled through the proposed dogmatization of St. Robert Bellarmine’s incisive exposition of the doctrine of the indefectibility of the Church,” is entirely erroneous. It was precisely this point which the council deliberately avoided. I have given ample treatment to this point in this volume. O’Regan goes on to say that “St. Bellarmine then goes on to list a total of four propositions outlining why the fourth opinion outlined above should be considered certain and positively asserted.” The first proposition says, “The pope can never err when he teaches to the whole Church (by way of the authentic Magisterium) in matters pertaining to faith.” Note that it is Emmett O’Regan, and not Robert Bellarmine, who characterizes this proposition as referring to the pope’s authentic magisterium. Bellarmine is not referring to the pope’s authentic magisterium in the cited passage. His language is almost maddeningly imprecise when considered according the standards of usage four centuries after his death – after two more ecuмenical councils taught with precision on infallible and ordinary magisterium. Nevertheless, his meaning can be gleaned from his usage. In this proposition under consideration, he is speaking expressly on papal infallibility: “Statuitur prima propositio de infallibili judicio summi Pontificis”; and then states the first proposition: “Summus Pontifex cuм totam Ecclesiam docet, in his quæ ad Fidem pertinent nullo casu errare potest. Hæc est contra primam et secundam opinionem pro quarta; et probatur …” He says this proposition, (which says nothing explicit about definitions), favours the fourth proposition, which speaks expressly of definitions. In treating on the second opinion, which is that of Adrian VI, he specifically interprets it to refer to definitions (Pontificem ut Pontificem, posse esse haereticuм, & docere haeresim, si absque generali Concilio definiat) – but the actual text of Adrian VI, while clearly intending the sense of definitive magisterial pronouncements, does not explicitly refer to definitions: “Ad secundum principale de facto Gregorii, dico primo quod si per Ecclesiam Romanam intelligatur caput ejus, puta Pontifex, Certum est quod possit errare, etiam in his, quae tangent fidem, haeresim per suam determinationem aut Decretalem asserendo” – yet Bellarmine clearly understands this to be Adrian’s meaning; and likewise, in his above cited prima propositio, he does not employ the term “definition”, but his intention to properly denote definitions in the expression, “Summus Pontifex cuм totam Ecclesiam docet”, is plain enough according to the usage of his day, so that the proposition can be clearly understood to refer to ex cathedra definitions, and not the less solemn pronouncements of the authentic magisterium. However, in the last analysis, since Pastor Aeternus dogmatized Bellarmine’s quarta sententia (which speaks explicitly of definitions) using its own formula, and not that of Bellarmine; and since it did not dogmatize Bellarmine’s prima propositio which makes no explicit mention of definitions; it is utterly futile that Mr. O’Regan attempts to extend the infallibility of the definitions of the extraordinary papal magisterium to the pronouncements of the authentic papal magisterium; and to even attempt to extend the dogma of infallibility to exclude that the pope can personally be a formal heretic. Like Mr. O’Regan, I also am in agreement with St. Robert Bellarmine that the Roman Pontiff cannot be a formal heretic. In his day, Bellarmine could only go so far as to say that his opinion on that point was “probable”, and that it can easily be proven. I have argued in Part III, proving that Bellarmine’s opinion on the question, since Vatican I, is more than just probable, but in fact is proxima fidei. However, from this conclusion of speculative theology, one cannot legitimately leap to the conclusion that O’Regan has fallaciously drawn from this premise; namely, that “concern over whether or not Pope Francis is forcing Catholics to submit their will and intellect to an heretical teaching, or has himself lapsed into heresy by extending this teaching to the level of authentic Magisterium, is somewhat misplaced, and potentially extremely harmful to the Faith”; because regardless of whether or not “some of the key issues concerning the nature of the papacy that we can see presently rising to the fore were already definitively settled during the First Vatican Council”, the fact still remains that Jorge “Francis” Bergoglio has introduced heresy into The teaching of his (supposed) authentic magisterium, and has clearly and most certainly demonstrated himself to be a manifest formal heretic; and needless to say, contra hoc factum non potest esse argumentum. At least, it cannot be legitimately disputed. A manifest heretic cannot be pope; and therefore, the fact that Francis is a manifest heretic proves that he is not a valid pope. Furthermore, even if Bergoglio were a valid pope, the pronouncements made by a pope exercising his authentic magisterium are not infallible; and, as I demonstrate in this volume, quoting the commonly held teaching set forth in approved works of Moral Theology: the obligation to give an obsequium religosium to pronouncements of the pope’s authentic magisterium is not absolutely binding. 
     While Emmett O’Regan’s presumably honest opinions on papal heresy are merely the result of logically defective reasoning; the same cannot be said of John Salza and Robert Siscoe; whose idolatrous worship of falsehood has rendered them blind to the truth. Indeed, the words with which St. Paul, filled with the Holy Ghost,  pronounced the sentence of blindness on Elymas the magician would most aptly apply to either of them: «O full of all guile, and of all deceit, child of the devil, enemy of all justice, thou ceasest not to pervert the right ways of the Lord. And now behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind» (Acts 13: 10 – 11) Salza & Siscoe are blindly entrenched in heresy, and in their blindness, seek to turn others against the faith: By deceptive sophistry, fraudulent doctoring of texts to distort, falsify, or invert their meaning; and even outright fabrication of bogus quotations, they heretically defend the thesis that a manifest heretic pope would, even as a manifest heretic remain a member of the Church, and remain in office until judged guilty by the Church (and they fraudulently argue that such a heretic pope would not actually be a manifest heretic until so judged by a public judgment of the Church, or unless he were to formally renounce the magisterial authority of the Church or explicitly admit his adherence to heresy); and they heretically maintain that the Church possesses the authority to juridically pass judgment on such a reigning Pontiff for the delict of heresy. They attempt to prove “infallibly” that the manifestly heretical, Jorge Mario “Francis” Bergoglio, who publicly rejects some of the most basic and universally known dogmas of the Catholic faith, was nevertheless validly elected to the supreme pontificate; and that Bergoglio is and remains the true pope of the Catholic Church, and will remain in office as the true pope of the Catholic Church, no matter how explicitly he contradicts, expressly denies, and openly rejects the foundational principles and beliefs of Catholicism, unless and until he will have openly rejected the Church as such, or been judged guilty of heresy by the authority of the Church, and then perhaps he would be effectively deposed; since, according to Salza & Siscoe, it is only heresy that is canonically notorious by fact (according to their own very bizarre understanding of the term), in virtue of an explicit renunciation of the Church as the rule of faith, an explicit admission of heresy, or a formal defection from the Church, that a pope would automatically be separated from the body of the Church by his heresy without first being judged guilty for the crime of heresy by the competent ecclesiastical authority. However, even then, it is still not entirely clear if, according to Salza & Siscoe, that would suffice to effect an ipso jure loss of office, because they equivocate on this point by maintaining that the juridical bond remains until a sentence or a declaration of deprivation is pronounced, so that even a public heretic would remain in office as pope until a public judgment is pronounced by the Church, no matter how public or notorious by fact his heresy might be. It is by means of this kind of contradictory equivocation that Salza & Siscoe “qualify” their statements – seemingly holding at times to two mutually opposed opinions; so that whenever someone points out the error of their opinion, they scream that they have qualified their statements, and have been misrepresented and calumniated in the refutation of their position. This is exactly the modus operandi they employed in their Formal Reply to me. When they accused Dr. Peter Chojnowski of misrepresenting their position, Dr. Chojnowski asked them to plainly state their position, but this they refused to do. Dr. Chojnowski, (who holds a Ph.D. in Philosophy), being thoroughly exasperated by their evasive tactics wrote to me saying, “I have failed utterly in my attempt to have Salza and Siscoe clarify exactly what they mean with regard to their innumerable distinctions or how these distinctions apply to the real world. […] I feel like I have stepped into the quicksand of Sophistry. […] I however believe that I have correctly summarized their argument on my blog.” On his blogsite, Dr. Chojnowski wrote: «Sorry dear readers I have been absolutely unable to get Salza and Siscoe to clarify their position and indicate how it is exactly applicable to the current situation in the Church. When I asked Atty. Salza to answer a few basic questions with a simple yes or no answer --- using their own terminology --- all that I received back were further questions DIRECTED TOWARDS ME!»
     Indeed, on innumerable occasions when Salza & Siscoe have been pressed to give a straight answer, they invariably resort to the evasive reply, “Read our book.” However, when one reads their book, it becomes clear to the discerning reader that in their book, Salza & Siscoe have constructed a maze of irresolvable contradictions which does not theologically elaborated an unequivocal and logically coherent position of their own on the questions of defection from the faith and loss of office for heresy; except that according to them, even a manifest heretic pope does not lose office without the public judgment of the Church. Their position is further obfuscated by their formulation of an unclear and self-contradictory notion of what constitutes a public judgment of the Church. Ultimately, what they say on exclusion from the Church and loss of office for heresy in their big 700 page volume is so self-contradictory that it evaporates into mere vapours of nothingness; and can only be likened to a large hall filled with smoke and mirrors in which there is nothing of substance to be found. Indeed, what conclusion can be drawn from their book, in which they say on the one hand (p. 260), that “The loss of office for a cleric is a vindictive penalty, and there is a process in Church law which must precede vindictive penalties”, and in their Formal Reply they quote Benedict XIV, “a sentence declaratory of the offence is always necessary in the external forum”; and on the other hand they say, “a reigning Pope will not lose his office before the Church has established the crime, and most probably not before the Church issues a declaratory sentence. However, we do concede that if a Pope were to openly and publicly leave the Church of his own will, as opposed to simply professing heresy, a case could be made that God would sever the bond that united the man to the pontificate at the moment his public defection was acknowledged by the Church, even without a declaratory sentence of the crime (for example, if the Pope publicly declared he was no longer Catholic and then joined and became a pastor of the Lutheran sect).” (pp. 280 – 281) So, Salza & Siscoe “do concede … that if a Pope were to openly and publicly leave the Church of his own will, as opposed to simply professing heresy, a case could be made that God would sever the bond that united the man to the pontificate at the moment his public defection was acknowledged by the Church, even without a declaratory sentence of the crime” – but, as I have pointed out, the canonical doctrine of the Church teaches categorically that the loss of whatsoever officestakes place, not only by formal defection from the Church, but  by public defection from the faith, i.e. by simply professing manifestly formal heresy, “without any declaration”. St. Robert Bellarmine formulated in theological terms the doctrine on which this canonical provision is based, explaining why it is impossible for a non-Catholic to be pope: “A non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan affirms in the same book, and the reason is because he cannot be the head of that which he is not a member, and he is not a member of the Church who is not a Christian. But a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as St. Cyprian and many other Fathers clearly teach. Therefore, a manifest heretic cannot be Pope.” (De Romano Pontifice lib. ii cap. xxx)
     In one of his replies to an earlier preliminary draft of this book, Salza wrote to me, “Keep the comedy hour going, Kramer, please… [Salza (incredibly) thinks my writings on this topic are comically silly!]  … you repeatedly falsify our position in the face of countless corrections. For example, you continue to accuse us of holding that only the crime of heresy severs one from the Body, but in our book we QUALIFY that statement over and over again …” I have more than adequately docuмented in this volume that Salza & Siscoe state repeatedly, and in a categorical and unqualified manner, that “only the crime of heresy” separates one from the body of the Church; and that external heresy is a crime in its very nature, and that the crime of heresy must be public and notorious for that separation to take place without a judgment by Church authority – and then they contradict themselves elsewhere (for example, stating that even material heretics who are not subjectively guilty of a crime, but who inculpably separate themselves from the Church, sever the juridical bond by themselves); and then they flip-flop again, insisting that a penal sentence of excommunication must be pronounced in order to sever the juridical bond; and that a declaration of deprivation or at least some form of public judgment of the Church would be necessary for loss of office to occur, which they falsely assert to be a vindictive penalty. In his article, John Salza Responds to Another Sedevacantist, Salza states categorically that, «Canon Law requires the heresy to be public and notorious, and the determination must be made by the Church.” After stating that the determination must be made by the Church, Salza then contradicts himself, saying, «heresy includes everything from the internal sin alone, to the public crime of notorious heresy - and only the latter automatically severs a person from external union with the Church “without a declaration.” » After stating flatly that only the crime of heresy  “automatically severs a person from external union with the Church”, Salza then inveighs against me: «you continue to accuse us of holding that only the crime of heresy severs one from the Body [of the Church] » Salza then reverses himself and writes to me, «In our book and articles, we also explicitly say that public (notorious) heresy severs one from the Body WITHOUT regard to &
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Geremia on September 09, 2018, 10:34:46 PM
Interesting. When exactly is his new book going to be released?
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 10, 2018, 09:41:46 AM
Quote
I demonstrate in this volume that the proposition, that “a pope actually can fall into formal heresy”, is proximate to heresy, but it is not de fide; and the first Vatican Council, as the Gasser Relation states quite unequivocally, did not intend to define on this point.

:popcorn:

I'm curious to see what he comes up with.  Then, later, however, in the above Foreward, he contradicts himself by saying it's possible that Bergoglio is not pope due to manifest heresy.  It would appear that because it's ONLY "proximate to heresy, but ... not de fide" ... Father Kramer feels free to reject this opinion?
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 10, 2018, 09:44:59 AM
Father Kramer is quite right in shooting down the S&S treatment of heresy as a crime, whereas St. Robert Bellarmine clearly explains that people are deposed on account of heresy ex natura haeresis, because heresy is intrinsically (and by definition) incompatible with being a Catholic.  It's like saying that the requirement to be Baptized is also a merely a legal requirement.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 11, 2018, 11:51:29 AM
Father Kramer is quite right in shooting down the S&S treatment of heresy as a crime, whereas St. Robert Bellarmine clearly explains that people are deposed on account of heresy ex natura haeresis, because heresy is intrinsically (and by definition) incompatible with being a Catholic.  It's like saying that the requirement to be Baptized is also a merely a legal requirement.


The Church Militant is a juridical institution with a spiritual aspect, not a spiritual entity with an juridical aspect.  

Interior faith is, according to one opinion (e.g. Franzilin, Garrigou-Lagrange), necessary to be member of the Church secundum quid, but not simpliciter, while according to the more common opinion (e.g., Bellarmine, Billot) it is in no way necessary for membership.  But according to both opinions, interior faith is not required for a person to legitimately hold office in the Church, since holding office pertain to the Church as a visible, juridical society.  

Similarly, to lose an ecclesiastical office for heresy, the culprit must be guilty of the crime of heresy, since only the crime separates a person from the Church juridically.  


Wernz-Vidal: “a General Council declares the fact that a crime had been committed, a crime by which the heretical pope on his own had separated himself from the Church..” (Wernz, Ius Decretalium, 1913, II, p. 615).

If the sin of heresy resulted in the loss of office, how would you ever know who legitimately held office? and how could the Church ever declare that an office had been lost for heresy, without being able to read hearts?  

But I do agree with you that Fr. Kramer contradicts himself when he says a pope cannot lose the faith, and then says if Francis were the true Pope, he would have lost his office for heresy.  If you read Fr. Kramer's arguments carefully, you find similar contradictions constantly.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 11, 2018, 12:02:08 PM
If the sin of heresy resulted in the loss of office, how would you ever know who legitimately held office?

St. Robert made it quite clear that we're talking about manifest heresy.

So, are you Salza or Siscoe?
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 11, 2018, 12:07:48 PM
St. Robert made it quite clear that we're talking about manifest heresy.

So, are you Salza or Siscoe?
But manifest heresy is a crime.  
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Charlemagne on September 11, 2018, 12:11:32 PM
The first question that needs to be answered - in my mind, anyway - is whether Francis is a manifest heretic, defined properly.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Mr G on September 11, 2018, 12:24:29 PM
But manifest heresy is a crime.  
Is manifest heresy only a crime without being sinful? Or is it both a crime and a sin at he same time? If so then manifest heresy is a sin and a crime.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 11, 2018, 12:48:25 PM
Is manifest heresy only a crime without being sinful? 
Manifest heresy does not require that the culprit be guilty of an interior sin.  That's why Bellarmine said the priests of Rome were justified is stripping Liberius of his pontifical dignity, even though he did not believe Liberius was guilty of the sin of heresy.  How do you explain this teaching of Bellarmine if you believe the sin of heresy is what causes the loss his office?  
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 11, 2018, 12:50:11 PM
Delete
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 11, 2018, 01:23:45 PM
But manifest heresy is a crime.  

But the point is that it also intrinsically removes from office by its very nature before any crime has been juridically demonstrated.

Let's say Jorge Bergogio says:  "I am converting to Buddhism as of right now."  He'd be gone as of that very moment and would lose office at that moment.  There need be no juridical process to declare.  "Jorge Bergoglio has left the Church and is no longer pope."

Let's say that Bergoglio says:  "I am converting to Buddhism as of right now."  30 days later the Church gathers in Council and declares that Bergoglio has lost office.  So WHEN did loss of office take place.  At the moment that Bergoglio made manifest his leaving of the Church or at the time of the declaration 30 days later?  Answering that question is key to resolving this debate.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 11, 2018, 07:50:41 PM
But the point is that it also intrinsically removes from office by its very nature before any crime has been juridically demonstrated.
Can you name any bishops from the time of Bellarmine until today who the Church recognizes as having lost their office for heresy, before the crime had been legally determined by the Church?
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Struthio on September 11, 2018, 07:55:53 PM
Can you name any bishops from the time of Bellarmine until today who the Church recognizes as having lost their office for heresy, before the crime had been legally determined by the Church?

(Since you obviously accept conciliar authorities) Lefebvre et al.

Though it was for a schismatic act. But Heresy/Schism/Apostasy, all the same.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 12, 2018, 09:02:16 AM
Can you name any bishops from the time of Bellarmine until today who the Church recognizes as having lost their office for heresy, before the crime had been legally determined by the Church?

Well, the case of bishops is different from that of popes.  In the case of bishops, it's the papal authority that keeps them in office, and so they would retain jurisdiction until it's withdrawn by the pope.  Popes receive their authority from God, and that's the entire reason this is such a sticky issue.  In the case of a bishop, the remedy is simply for Rome to depose them, but Popes cannot be deposed by human authority.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: cassini on September 13, 2018, 05:50:47 AM
Can you name any bishops from the time of Bellarmine until today who the Church recognizes as having lost their office for heresy, before the crime had been legally determined by the Church?

Heresy and Bellarmine. Now wasn't it the same Bellarmine who, having presided over the trial of Bruno, sided with Pope Paul V when he defined and declared biblical heliocentrism formal heresy?
When faced with the false assertions of philosophers and media that physical heliocentrism was a proven fact, even popes ruled in favour of human reasoning and allowed the one time formal heresy to be the correct interpretation of the bible.

Now this was done in spite of a number of Holy Office members who rejected the claims of science and tried to defend the papal decree of Pope Paul V as 'irreversable.' In other words the threat of heresy meant NOTHING to many churchmen, including popes, one after the other, beginning in 1741.

Ok, now let us get back to Bellarmine, the saint who set down teaching on papal heresy and who presided over 1616 decree that defined biblical heliocentrism as formal heresy. With popes now allowing heliocentrism to be understood as a truth of nature and thus the Bible, we now have to find a way out so as to be able to say the post 1741 heliocentric popes of the Church were not heretics or we would have to face the situation of having few popes since 1741 true popes.

So, we must now say they never REALLY meant to contradict the definition of heresy, but when they preferred the 'proof' that the 1616 decree was proven false to faith in their predecessors ruling, their heresy is demoted to MATERIAL HERESY which is really no heresy at all.

But now that the dogs in the street know that the 1616 decree defining biblical heliocentrism was NEVER falsified, and confirms the position of Fr Anfossi and his supporters in the Holy Office of 1820 who warned all that there was no proof and that the 1616 decree was papal, it puts the popes' position into a matter of belief (in human reasoning or in that of all the Fathers and the 1616 decree) once again. So, what kind of heresy is now involved.

Given that we now know heliocentrism was never proven, and thus the decree defining this belief is formal heresy never proven false or abrogated, is it still material heresy to continue to choose heliocentrism as a truth of nature and revelation?

If one goes by Bellarmine's opinion, then how many popes were heliocentric formal heretics, how many were only Material heretics, and how many, after Einstein chose the formal heretical position. For example, Pope John Paul II, in his address at the Galileo commission, confirmed Einstein said relativity prevails and we cannot tell if helio or geo is the truth. But he said in effect, I will go for Galileo rather that the Church of 1616. In other words he chose the formal heretical heliocentrism.

Given it is now proven that the 1616 decree was never an error as promulgated for centuries, right up to this day, and catholics, even on this forum, prefer to hold on to the heresy and even argue in favour of others holding the same heretical position.

Our Lady recognised many of the heliocentric believing popes as Christ's Vicars, as true popes Yes? So if we are to do the maths, Bellarmine's teaching on heretical popes included, none of then intended to deliberately contradict the 1616 decree, so harmless material heresy was involved. So, can ignorance now be used to excuse the appearance of heresy by the Vatican II popes?

The long drawn out history of the Galileo case has shown me that it is a waste of time trying to resolve this problem of popes and heresy. Some things get so confusing and complicated that we can only find comfort in knowing God is watching all from above and He will sort it out in this life of at the time of judgement. In charity, we lay Catholics are forbidden to judge the person, lest we be judged for what could amount to wrong judgement. That said, we are allowed to point out the errors of the past without judging the intent of the persons if not known.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 13, 2018, 09:24:41 AM
Manifest heresy does not require that the culprit be guilty of an interior sin. 

Agreed.  de internis Ecclesia non judicat
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 13, 2018, 01:47:45 PM
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Quote
    The theory, which holds that the pope, while still in office, can be judged and deposed for heresy; whether the deposition be considered as a proper act of juridical deposition, or as an act of removal of one who is considered jure divino removable upon having been judged guilty of the crime of heresy by competent ecclesiastical authority, and as a consequence of that judgment to have fallen from office ipso facto; has, since the time shortly after the First Vatican Council, been unanimously rejected by theologians, since it could be clearly seen, in the light of the absolute supremacy and injudicability of the pope set forth in solemn definition of the primacy, to be contrary to the faith of the Church. Likewise, the belief that a true and valid pope could even fall into formal heresy was generally abandoned after Pastor Aeternus taught that St. Peter and his successors were given the grace of unfailing faith as a requisite disposition for exercising the charism of papal infallibility. St. Robert Bellarmine had also forcefully argued this point in Caput iii Liber iv of De Romano Pontifice; but it was only after the support it received from Pastor Aeternus, that Bellarmine’s position on the question became the opinio communissima.  Since then it has been the nearly unanimous opinion of theologians that a pope cannot fall into formal heresy. While in the Middle Ages it was the far more common opinion among theologians and canonists that a pope could fall into formal heresy, and that he could be judged for heresy by a council; conversely, by the time of the Tridentine and post-Tridentine period, the great Counter-Reformation doctors such as Cajetan, Bellarmine, Suarez, and John of St. Thomas, were of the opinion that a pope cannot become a formal heretic, and therefore considered the question of papal heresy as a mere hypothesis.
    Today, more than a century after the opinion that a heretical pope could be judged while still holding office and deposed by the Church had been discarded and totally abandoned by theologians, since that opinion was clearly seen to oppose the dogmatic pronouncements of the magisterium; that opinion has resurfaced in some quarters, due to the doctrinal heterodoxy of the “Conciliar Popes” – i.e. the popes, beginning with John XXIII up to the present, who have all, without exception, distinguished themselves in the most dubious manner but in different degrees – having deviated from the rule of faith in their opinions and pronouncements. It is due, in no small measure, to the deceptive sophistry of the Conciliar Church propagandists, John Salza and Robert Siscoe, that this heretical opinion, which holds that a pope while still in office can be judged by his inferiors in the Church, has experienced a recrudescence; and ironically, it is in the sector of the Church where the most careful attention to doctrinal rectitude is usually found, i.e. among the traditionalists, that this errant theory, which can be seen to be heretical in the light of Pastor Aeternus, has been resurrected.
    In his book, Contra Cekadam, the learned and highly respected rector of the Hearts of Jesus and Mary Seminary, Fr. François Chazal, has adopted the opinion of John of St. Thomas on the question of deposition of a manifest heretic pope from office. It was the opinion of John of St. Thomas that one who is manifestly a formal heretic would not fall from the papal office ipso facto; but would remain in office as pope until convicted of heresy by a council, and then would only fall from office upon being declared vitandus by the council. This is the fourth of the five opinions outlined by St. Robert Bellarmine in Book II of his De Romano Pontifice. Bellarmine utterly demolished this opinion in his refutation of it in chapter 30, and his own opinion (the fifth opinion) that a manifest heretic pope would straightaway fall from office ipso facto, was eventually incorporated into the 1917 Code of Canon Law (Canon 188 n. 4); and remains in force in the 1983 Code. According to Canon 188 n. 4, one who publicly defects from the faith automatically falls from whatsoever office ipso jure. In this volume I have demonstrated that this position is indeed, as Bellarmine called it, “the true opinion” beyond all shadow of doubt, and beyond any legitimate dispute.  
     Unfortunately, since Fr. Chazal is refuting a sedevacantist in his work, he relies too heavily on the thoroughly dishonest scholarship of Salza & Siscoe in their fraudulent diatribe against Sedevacantism, True or False Pope? This unfortunate reliance, which is undoubtedly due to its being the most exhaustive exposition published on Sedevacantism to date, is plainly discernible in Bishop Richard Williamson’s comments on Fr. Chazal’s brief work.
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Fr. Kramer is clearly pro-Fr.Chazal and anti-Salza&Siscoe

Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Mr G on September 13, 2018, 02:11:45 PM
..
Fr. Kramer is clearly pro-Fr.Chazal and anti-Salza&Siscoe
Yes, that is true. Fr. Kramer helped Fr. Chazal in the Philippines in the old SSPX days, and as far as I know, are still on friendly terms. I know there is a video of Fr. Kramer visiting and offering Mass at the "bamboo seminary" just a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: forlorn on September 13, 2018, 03:19:46 PM

The Church Militant is a juridical institution with a spiritual aspect, not a spiritual entity with an juridical aspect.  

Interior faith is, according to one opinion (e.g. Franzilin, Garrigou-Lagrange), necessary to be member of the Church secundum quid, but not simpliciter, while according to the more common opinion (e.g., Bellarmine, Billot) it is in no way necessary for membership.  But according to both opinions, interior faith is not required for a person to legitimately hold office in the Church, since holding office pertain to the Church as a visible, juridical society.

Similarly, to lose an ecclesiastical office for heresy, the culprit must be guilty of the crime of heresy, since only the crime separates a person from the Church juridically.  


Wernz-Vidal: “a General Council declares the fact that a crime had been committed, a crime by which the heretical pope on his own had separated himself from the Church..” (Wernz, Ius Decretalium, 1913, II, p. 615).

If the sin of heresy resulted in the loss of office, how would you ever know who legitimately held office? and how could the Church ever declare that an office had been lost for heresy, without being able to read hearts?  

But I do agree with you that Fr. Kramer contradicts himself when he says a pope cannot lose the faith, and then says if Francis were the true Pope, he would have lost his office for heresy.  If you read Fr. Kramer's arguments carefully, you find similar contradictions constantly.
Funny how you cite Bellarmine while you completely ignore his writings refuting the belief that a heretic Pope could retain the form of his office until deposition. In fact, he went so far as to say that the belief a manifest heretic Pope is not ipso facto deposed "cannot be defended". He addressed the "secundum quid vs simpliciter" distinction too. 
http://www.cmri.org/02-bellarmine-roman-pontiff.html
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: nottambula on September 13, 2018, 07:17:56 PM
Yes, that is true. Fr. Kramer helped Fr. Chazal in the Philippines in the old SSPX days, and as far as I know, are still on friendly terms. I know there is a video of Fr. Kramer visiting and offering Mass at the "bamboo seminary" just a couple of years ago.

Except Fr. Kramer and Fr. Chazal disagree on who is the pope. Not an insignificant matter. 
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 13, 2018, 08:09:04 PM
Except Fr. Kramer and Fr. Chazal disagree on who is the pope. Not an insignificant matter.

What does a different pope matter among friends?   :laugh1:

Seriously, though, you had saints on both sides of the Great Schism.

In any case, Father Kramer LIKES Father Chazal, but very much dislikes S&S.  He disagrees with Father Chazal's adoption of John of St. Thomas' position, saying that St. Robert Bellarmine "demolished" that position.  Then he blames S&S, by saying this was because Father Chazal relied too much on the shoddy scholarship of S&S.  LOL

In point of fact, Father Chazal came to his position before S&S had come out with their book.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 14, 2018, 05:59:33 PM
Well, the case of bishops is different from that of popes.  In the case of bishops, it's the papal authority that keeps them in office, and so they would retain jurisdiction until it's withdrawn by the pope.  Popes receive their authority from God, and that's the entire reason this is such a sticky issue.  In the case of a bishop, the remedy is simply for Rome to depose them, but Popes cannot be deposed by human authority.

But you said "heresy intrinsically removes from office, by its very nature, before the crime has been juridically demonstrated".  Now you're saying that only applies in the case of a Pope.  But if it only applies in the case of a Pope, it means your assertion is not true since, if it were, it would apply in the case of all Bishops.  

And if a heretical bishops is sustained in office by the Pope until the Church deposes him, why would it be assumed that God would not likewise sustain a heretical pope in office until the Church declared that he had lost it?  Should we not expect that the law of the Church, which is established for the good of the Church and souls, reflects the divine law, in such a way that what applies to a heretical bishop vis-a-vis the pope, would likewise apply to the pope vis-a-vis God?  Also consider that if God were to strip a pope of the pontifical dignity while the Church continued to recognize him as pope, the consequences for the Church and for souls would be much more grave than if a lesser bishop lost his office while the Church continued to recognize him as a legitimate bishop.

I would also point out that Bellarmine doesn't say only a manifestly heretical pope loses his jurisdiction, but that the same applies in the case of all manifest heretics.  Yet, as you rightly pointed out, as long as a heretical bishop is being tolerated by the Pope he retains his jurisdiction.   How do you reconcile your position with that of Bellarmine?  There's actually a way to do so. Want to give it a try?



Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 14, 2018, 08:45:17 PM
I'll answer in depth later, but the clue is that I'm a privationist.  I believe that the heretical Pope retains material jurisdiction in the exact same way that heretical bishops do.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 14, 2018, 09:20:32 PM
Let's say Jorge Bergogio says:  "I am converting to Buddhism as of right now."  He'd be gone as of that very moment and would lose office at that moment.  There need be no juridical process to declare.  "Jorge Bergoglio has left the Church and is no longer pope."

Let's say that Bergoglio says:  "I am converting to Buddhism as of right now."  30 days later the Church gathers in Council and declares that Bergoglio has lost office.  So WHEN did loss of office take place.  At the moment that Bergoglio made manifest his leaving of the Church or at the time of the declaration 30 days later?  Answering that question is key to resolving this debate.


In the hypothetical case you proposed, it seems as though he would lose his office before any action was taken by the Church (although I wouldn’t venture the guess the exact moment).  The reason is because the act of leaving the Church by a public profession, and declaring that he is converting to Buddhism, severs every external bond of unity with the visible society of the Church.  If he were no longer a member of the visible society of the Church, by his own admission, he would no longer be the head of the visible society of the Church, by his own action. The only thing the Church would do is declare that he was no longer Pope.  That being said, if there were a mitigating factor (e.g., if he had been drugged, or forced to make the false profession against his will, etc.), and provided he quickly returned to the Church before the declaration was issued, I believe he would remain pope.  

But in the case of a member of the hierarchy who publicly errs in the faith, and is suspected or believed a heretic, yet who continues to profess being a Catholic and remains united to the visible society of the Church, he will not lose his office unless the Church legally established that he’s a heretic and deposed him, or (in the case of a Pope) declares him deposed.

Bellarmine teaches that those are the two ways a heretical bishop or pope will lose his office.  In the case of a Pope, he loses his office is ipso facto, (since the Church has no authority to depose him), but if he has not publicly separate himself from the visible society of the Church, he only loses his jurisdiction when the Church has determined that he’s a heretic and, as far as we are concerned, legitimately declared him deposed.  

As in the case of a heretical bishop who, as you conceded, retains his office and jurisdiction as long as he remains externally united to the Church, and is being tolerated by the Pope, so likewise will a heretical pope will retain his jurisdiction as long as he remains united to the visible society of the Church, and is being tolerated by her.  

They key difference is whether he continues to be a Catholic by external profession (not a Buddhist by external profession), and remains externally united to the visible society of the Church (not openly leaving the Church, as in the hypothesis you proposed).  Bellarmine discusses this at lengthy in De Ecclesia Militante, and goes so far in defending it that he even teaches that manifest heretics, Jєωs and Pagans are “members of the Body of the Church” if they meet these two conditions.  

I think Bellarmine went too far, since baptism is necessary for true membership, but his error helps us to understand his position on what is necessary for someone to become separated from the Church. Listen to what he wrote in response to the teaching of Pope of Pope Nicholas, who said “the Church is the gathering of Catholics”:

“We are necessarily compelled to say that they are called Catholics who profess the Catholic Faith, irrespective of their internal faith. (…) Moreover, it is clear that a gathering of Catholics cannot be formed other than by convoking into one place all those who are said to be and are called Catholic, that is, those who publicly profess themselves to be Catholic.” (De Ecclesia Militante, bk III, ch. X)

According to Bellarmine, if person profess himself to be Catholic, and remain visibly united with the other Catholics, he is a member of the body of the Church. If a professing Catholic is a heretic, he only ceased to be a member, according to Bellarmine, when he breaks into open schism and leaves the Church, or is expelled from her.  

Listen to what Bellarmine wrote about those who deny the Faith, but profess themselves to be Catholic for some temporal benefit. After remarking the Calvin and some others believed such people are not members of the Church, he writes:

“We, however, follow the manner of speaking of the majority [of Catholic theologians], who teach that those who are joined with the other faithful by a purely external profession, are true parts, and therefore members of the Body of the church, although withered and dead. And, first of all, this opinion can be demonstrated by these words of John: “And now many have become Antichrists; they went out from us, but they were not of us; for, if they had been of us, they certainly would have remained with us” (1 John 2).  For, in this place, John is speaking of heretics, whom he calls Antichrists, and says that before they went out from us they were not of us—that is to say, they were not Catholics in mind and will, even though they were by external profession; but, after they betrayed themselves and burst forth into open schism, they ceased to be ‘of us’ in any sense. (…)”  (De Ecclesia Militante, bk III, ch. X)

Next he explains how a heretical bishop or pope loses his office:

“Secondly, the same is demonstrated by the testimonies of those Fathers who teach, with a general consensus, that those who are outside of the Church have no authority or jurisdiction over the Church. And, indeed, reason itself manifestly teaches the same thing: for how is it at all possible to suppose or imagine that he should have jurisdiction, and therefore be head of the Church, who is not a member of the Church [has openly left the Church]?  Who ever heard of a heard, who was not a member?  But it is certain (whatever one or another may think) that an occult heretic, if he be a bishop or even the supreme Pontiff, does not lose his jurisdiction, or dignity, or the title of head in the Church, until either he publicly separates himself from the Church, or, being convicted of heresy, is unwillingly separated.” (De Ecclesia Militante, bk III, ch. X)

There’s the two ways Bellarmine believes a pope loses his office for manifest heresy: he either publicly separates himself from the Church, or he is determined to be a heretic by the Church, and legally declared to be separated from it.  

The latter is what he believed happened in the case of Pope Liberius.  Pay close attention to what he wrote about how Liberius lost the pontifical dignity:

Bellarmine: “Then two years later came the lapse of Liberius, of which we have spoken above. Then indeed the Roman clergy, stripping Liberius of his pontifical dignity, went over to Felix, whom they knew to be a Catholic. From that time, Felix began to be the true Pontiff. For although Liberius was not a heretic, nevertheless he was considered one, on account of the peace he made with the Arians, and by that presumption the pontificate could rightly be taken from him: for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and condemn him as a heretic.” (De Romano Pontifice, bk IV)

Bellarmine doesn’t say Liberius automatically lost the pontificate without the priests of Rome being involved.  Quite the contrary, he says the priests of Rome stripped Liberius of the pontifical dignity, which he says they were permitted to do because they believed him to be a heretic. If you consult the Latin, what he actually says is the priests of Rome “abrogated” Liberius’ Pontificate – that is, they legally rendered the papacy null – even though he did not believe Liberius was guilty of the sin of heresy.  

That’s how Bellarmine believes the ipso facto loss of office takes place for a heretical pope who has not publicly left the Church.  To be clear, the Church does not authoritatively depose him, but simply determines, to the best of its ability, if the Pope has fallen into heresy.   If so, and even the bishops are dead wrong, Bellarmine says “by that presumption the pontificate could rightly be taken from him”.  

How can they do so, given the fact that the Church has no authority to depose the Pope?  They can do so, according to Bellarmine, because manifest heretics are ipso facto deposed, and therefore they don’t need to be authoritatively deposed.  The Church simply determines if he’s a heretic, and declares that he is no longer pope.  No need to actually depose him.   And the Church has the right to make that determination, even though it does not have the authoritatively judge the Pope, in the true sense of the word (as Bellarmine also explains elsewhere), until he has already been determined to have lost his office – only then can he be judged and punished by the Church.

Neither John XXIII, Paul VI, JP II, Benedict, or Francis publicly left the Church.   Nor were any of them “stripped of the Pontifical dignity” by the Church.  Therefore, they all retained their office and jurisdiction until death, and Francis retains it until now – no less than any other heretical bishop who is being tolerated by the Church and left in office.  
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: forlorn on September 15, 2018, 10:37:04 AM
Once again you quote Bellarmine out on context while you completely ignore his own writinngs that SPECIFICALLY address your claims. He refuted the belief that a heretic Pope could retain the form of his office until deposition. In fact, he went so far as to say that the belief a manifest heretic Pope is not ipso facto deposed "cannot be defended". If a Pope's loss of office has to be declared by the rest of the Church, as you claim, then it is not an ipso facto deposition. You have to twist ipso facto to mean its exact opposite for that to work. If a Pope retains his jurisdiction even after his "hidden" deposition for embracing heresy, then it would be impossible for the Church to de facto depose him. The Church cannot depose the Pope if he still has his jurisdiction, which you claim he maintains even as a heretic. He could ergo never be deposed. 
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 15, 2018, 01:59:44 PM
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Just imagine all the defenders of Bishop of Rome Francis -- they would all drop him in a New York minute if he were to deny BoD. 
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They're all for giving him the benefit of the doubt for the pederasty scandal, but if he were to deny BoD that would be REAL heresy.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 15, 2018, 03:14:55 PM
Funny how you cite Bellarmine while you completely ignore his writings refuting the belief that a heretic Pope could retain the form of his office until deposition. In fact, he went so far as to say that the belief a manifest heretic Pope is not ipso facto deposed "cannot be defended". He addressed the "secundum quid vs simpliciter" distinction too.
http://www.cmri.org/02-bellarmine-roman-pontiff.html


Quote the excerpts you referring to and tell me what you think Bellarmine means.
 
And what he said is “To my judgment” it “cannot be defended”.  Why did you leave off the first three words, which show that he's simply giving an opinion, and only quote the last three words, thereby making it appear to be a statement of fact?
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: forlorn on September 15, 2018, 03:42:00 PM

Quote the excerpts you referring to and tell me what you think Bellarmine means.

And what he said is “To my judgment” it “cannot be defended”.  Why did you leave off the first three words, which show that he's simply giving an opinion, and only quote the last three words, thereby making it appear to be a statement of fact?
Obviously it's to his judgement. Everything a man says is to his own judgement. I never claimed Bellarmine was infallible. 
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 15, 2018, 10:17:36 PM
Obviously it's to his judgement. Everything a man says is to his own judgement. I never claimed Bellarmine was infallible.



 In your earlier post, you said Bellarmine does not believe a heretical pope can retain the form of the pontificate. You were referring to this:

 
Bellarmine: "Further against the argument of Cajetan: either faith is a disposition necessary 'simpliciter' for someone to be Pope, or it is only necessary for someone to be a good Pope. In the first hypothesis, in case this disposition be eliminated by the contrary disposition, which is heresy, the Pope immediately ceases to be Pope: for the form cannot maintain itself without the necessary dispositions."
 
Bellarmine does not believe faith is a disposition necessary for a pope to retain the form of the pontificate.  This is evident by what he wrote two paragraphs earlier (in his refutation of the Second Opinion) and at the end of his defense of the Fifth Opinion, as well as in other places.  
 
In the quotation above, Bellarmine is attempting to use Cajetan's ecclesiology against him; he's not give his own opinion. Cajetan believes faith and the character are necessary for membership in the Church, Bellarmine doesn't.  Bellarmine believes the external bonds alone suffice for membership, and external unity alone suffices for a pope to retain his office.
 
And it's strange that Bellarmine is attempting to refute this particular argument of Cajetan, since Cajetan used it in his own refutation of the opinion that Bellarmine lists as the 2nd Opinion (i.e., that the loss of interior faith causes a pope to lose his office), which Bellarmine also rejects.  They are in agreement that the 2nd Opinion is wrong, and they both refute it, yet for some reason, in his attempted refutation of the 4th Opinion (which Cajetan holds), Bellarmine dedicates six paragraphs to refuting  what Cajetan wrote against the 2nd Opinion.  The reason Bellarmine did so was in an attempt to use Cajetan's ecclesiology against him, but in truth it wasn't a convincing argument. John of St. Thomas easily refuted it.
 
The problem is that if one doesn't realize that Bellarmine is attempting to use Cajetan's argument against him, they will entirely misunderstand his position.  That's what happened to Fr. Kramer, who not only failed to realize what Bellarmine was doing, but ended up erecting an elaborate argument, full of novelties and errors, based on what he mistakenly thought Bellarmine himself believed.  
 
If you read Fr. Kramer's argument for why the virtue of faith is supposedly necessary for a pope to teach infallibly (which NO ONE HAS EVER TAUGHT), you'll see that it's based on his misunderstanding of the above excerpt from Bellarmine - viz, that the virtue of faith is a necessary disposition for a pope to retain the form of the Pontificate. This same error is also why he now claims it is "proximate to heresy" to believe it's possible for a Pope to lose the virtue of faith, now that Vatican I has defined Papal Infallibility.  All this based on the erroneous interpretation of Bellarmine's position, which Bellarmine himself explicitly refuted two paragraphs earlier.  
 
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: forlorn on September 16, 2018, 05:18:14 AM


 In your earlier post, you said Bellarmine does not believe a heretical pope can retain the form of the pontificate. You were referring to this:

 
Bellarmine: "Further against the argument of Cajetan: either faith is a disposition necessary 'simpliciter' for someone to be Pope, or it is only necessary for someone to be a good Pope. In the first hypothesis, in case this disposition be eliminated by the contrary disposition, which is heresy, the Pope immediately ceases to be Pope: for the form cannot maintain itself without the necessary dispositions."

Incorrect. St. Bellarmine's personal view was that a Pope could not be a heretic at all. That article was him just addressing the various views on what would happen if he was incorrect and a heretical Pope somehow came to be.

Bellarmine does not believe faith is a disposition necessary for a pope to retain the form of the pontificate.  This is evident by what he wrote two paragraphs earlier (in his refutation of the Second Opinion) and at the end of his defense of the Fifth Opinion, as well as in other places.  
 
In the quotation above, Bellarmine is attempting to use Cajetan's ecclesiology against him; he's not give his own opinion. Cajetan believes faith and the character are necessary for membership in the Church, Bellarmine doesn't.  Bellarmine believes the external bonds alone suffice for membership, and external unity alone suffices for a pope to retain his office.
 
And it's strange that Bellarmine is attempting to refute this particular argument of Cajetan, since Cajetan used it in his own refutation of the opinion that Bellarmine lists as the 2nd Opinion (i.e., that the loss of interior faith causes a pope to lose his office), which Bellarmine also rejects.  They are in agreement that the 2nd Opinion is wrong, and they both refute it, yet for some reason, in his attempted refutation of the 4th Opinion (which Cajetan holds), Bellarmine dedicates six paragraphs to refuting  what Cajetan wrote against the 2nd Opinion.  The reason Bellarmine did so was in an attempt to use Cajetan's ecclesiology against him, but in truth it wasn't a convincing argument. John of St. Thomas easily refuted it.
 
The problem is that if one doesn't realize that Bellarmine is attempting to use Cajetan's argument against him, they will entirely misunderstand his position.  That's what happened to Fr. Kramer, who not only failed to realize what Bellarmine was doing, but ended up erecting an elaborate argument, full of novelties and errors, based on what he mistakenly thought Bellarmine himself believed.  
 
If you read Fr. Kramer's argument for why the virtue of faith is supposedly necessary for a pope to teach infallibly (which NO ONE HAS EVER TAUGHT), you'll see that it's based on his misunderstanding of the above excerpt from Bellarmine - viz, that the virtue of faith is a necessary disposition for a pope to retain the form of the Pontificate. This same error is also why he now claims it is "proximate to heresy" to believe it's possible for a Pope to lose the virtue of faith, now that Vatican I has defined Papal Infallibility.  All this based on the erroneous interpretation of Bellarmine's position, which Bellarmine himself explicitly refuted two paragraphs earlier.  
 

A few posts up you were using St. Bellarmine to defend your views, and now you're claiming Bellarmine was incorrect. Which is it - what do you believe?
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 18, 2018, 01:14:06 AM


A few posts up you were using St. Bellarmine to defend your views, and now you're claiming Bellarmine was incorrect. Which is it - what do you believe?

.
You've been reading a demonstration of how to use the writings of a Church Doctor sort of like cannon fodder, a useful tool when applied for your various purposes, regardless of what your target of the moment is. 
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 18, 2018, 09:25:23 AM
There’s the two ways Bellarmine believes a pope loses his office for manifest heresy: he either publicly separates himself from the Church, or he is determined to be a heretic by the Church, and legally declared to be separated from it.  

Right here is the problem.  If the Pope isn't separated from his office until a judgment by the Church that he has committed the crime of heresy, then the Church would be passing judgment on a sitting Pope.

So what exactly is the force of said declaration?

It's nothing more than a RECOGNITION by the Church that this has ALREADY HAPPENED.

Does this recognition require some kind of "legal" form?  Without the Pope, what kind of "legal" status can a declaration from the headless Church even have?  So this phrase you employ that the Pope would be "legally declared to be separated from [the Church]" is nonsense.

This recognition, by virtue of the infallibility of the Ecclesia Credens, would give the certainty of faith regarding this fact.  Until it reaches that point, however, there's room for "widespread doubt" ... that eventually requires resolution one way or another.

So this recognition by the Church does not ontologically effect deposition, but constitutes merely a recognition regarding the truth of it.  THAT is precisely why St. Robert Bellarmine states that it is the FACT ITSELF which effects the deposition.  But this position of S&S twists it into a variant on --- the declaration causes the fact which causes the deposition, so ultimately the declaration causes the deposition.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 18, 2018, 09:32:29 AM
external unity alone suffices for a pope to retain his office

I think that you're trying to twist Bellarmine's understanding of "external unity" into some kind of legal thing.  Simple public adherence to heresy would, in Bellarmine's view, suffice on its own to sever someone from the external unity.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 18, 2018, 12:18:04 PM
You know, these academic discussions about what happens to a heretical pope are absolutely moot and a waste of time.

If this were the case of a Church whose Magisterium and Universal Discipline remained intact, but Bergoglio was running around spouting heretical nonsense, we'd just leave it up to the hierarchy to sort out and would not even give it a second thought.

All we know is that the Church's Magisterium and Universal Discipline are guaranteed by God not to go this badly off the rails where they're leading souls to hell and to displeasing Him.  Consequently, we know that these men cannot be exercising legitimate teaching authority.  As for the mechanism responsible?  It could be many things:  blackmail, drugging, illegitimate election/infiltration, heresy, etc.  Archbishop Lefebvre went through this list with the same reasoning in mind.

I for one think these men are Communist-Masonic infiltrators who got Roncalli and his successors illegitimately elected to the See of Peter.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 19, 2018, 09:35:01 PM
Incorrect. St. Bellarmine's personal view was that a Pope could not be a heretic at all. That article was him just addressing the various views on what would happen if he was incorrect and a heretical Pope somehow came to be.

That's a separate question.  Bellarmine said the opinion that a pope cannot lose the faith is "probable and easily defendable", but then he addressed what would happen if he did lose the faith, since he admitted that the common opinion is that a pope can fall into heresy. 
 
Quote
A few posts up you were using St. Bellarmine to defend your views, and now you're claiming Bellarmine was incorrect. Which is it - what do you believe?

I wasn't using Bellarmine to defend my views.  I was showing what Bellarmine's position is.   And I didn't say Bellarmine was incorrect.  What i said is that the particular argument he used - the one you completely took out of context - was a bad argument.  
Why did you ignore the fact that you entirely misunderstood what Bellarmine meant about the faith being a necessary disposition to retain the form of the papacy?   You accused me of taking him out of context, when it was you who were doing so.  Bellarmine was trying to use Cajetan's ecclesiology against him, and you thought he was explaining his own position.  
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 20, 2018, 12:25:52 AM
Quote
AlbertP: There’s the two ways Bellarmine believes a pope loses his office for manifest heresy: he either publicly separates himself from the Church, or he is determined to be a heretic by the Church, and legally declared to be separated from it.  


Quote
Ladislaus (https://www.cathinfo.com/profile/Ladislaus/): Right here is the problem.  If the Pope isn't separated from his office until a judgment by the Church that he has committed the crime of heresy, then the Church would be passing judgment on a sitting Pope.


Bellarmine: But it is certain (whatever one or another may think) that an occult heretic, if he be a bishop or even the supreme Pontiff, does not lose his jurisdiction, or dignity, or the title of head in the Church, until either [1] he publicly separates himself from the Church, or, [2] being convicted of heresy, is unwillingly separated.” (De Ecclesia Militante, bk III, ch. X)

How do you interpret that teaching of Bellarmine about the two ways a pope loses his jurisdiction, dignity and title of head of the Church?  If you need some help, consult the 2nd and 5th opinions in bk 2, chapter 30 of De Romano Pontifice.  The 5th Opinion concerns the first way, the 2nd Opinion concerns the second.  If you want me to quote these opinions and comment on them, let me know.

Regarding judging the pope, if the Church were not permitted to determine, by human judgment, if a pope is a heretic, it would never be permitted to declare that he lost his office for heresy.  The first judgment is required before the second can be rendered, and if the first is not permitted, the second could never be concluded.  There is no way to escape that logic.

How does Bellarmine answer that difficulty?  His answer is found in the 3rd Opinion, where he says “in the case of heresy, a Roman Pontiff can be judged” because heresy “the only reason where it is lawful for inferiors to judge superiors.”  He doesn’t say the reason he can be judged is because he is already “outside the Church and deposed by God.”   No, he explicitly refutes that in the 2nd Opinion,  and further says that just as a pope does not receive his jurisdiction by God without the judgment of men, so to a pope who falls into heresy "is not removed by God unless it is through men".

Now, Bellarmine does say a pope cannot be judged with a coercive judgment, or 'judged and punished,' while he remains pope.  But the Church is permitted to use human judgment to determine if he is a heretic. If the Church makes that determination, it can declare him separated from the Church and abrogate his pontificate.

Listen to what he wrote about the case of Marcellinus:

“The example of Marcellinus, who in the Council of Sinvessano was condemned by the bishops and deposed.  I respond: a) Marcellinus was accused of an act of infidelity, in which case a Council can discuss the case of a Pope and if they were to discover that he really was an infidel, the Council can declare him outside the Church and thus condemn him.”

In another place, Bellarmine said he does not believe Marcellinus lost his office by his public act of apostasy, yet above he said it was permitted for the Council to be gathered to discuss the case because of the accusation against him.  Bellarmine believes it was licit for a Council to gathered, not simply declare that he wasn’t the pope, but to examine the case in order to determine, by human judgment, if he was guilty as charge.  If they were to make the determination, then they could declare him separated from the Church, and judge him with a coercive judgment.

Quote
So what exactly is the force of said declaration? It's nothing more than a RECOGNITION by the Church that this has ALREADY HAPPENED.

Let’s compare what Bellarmine says about the case of Pope Marcellinus and Pope Liberius to see if it supports your position.

Bellarmine: “Liberius neither taught heresy, nor was a heretic, but only sinned by external act, as did St. Marcellinus, and unless I am mistaken, sinned less than St. Marcellinus."

Notice, Bellarmine believes both Popes sinned by an external act, but believes the sin of Marcellinus was greater.   Now, since Bellarmine did not believe Marcellinus lost his office ipso facto for his sin against the faith, he obviously didn’t believe Liberius lost his office for his lesser sin.  Yet Bellarmine did believe Liberius lost the pontificate in some way.  How did it happen?  According to Bellarmine, the pontifical dignity “taken from" Liberius by the priests of Rome, who “stripped” him of it.  

Bellarmine: “Then two years later came the lapse of Liberius, of which we have spoken above. Then indeed the Roman clergy, stripping Liberius of his pontifical dignity, went over to Felix, whom they knew to be a Catholic. From that time, Felix began to be the true Pontiff. For although Liberius was not a heretic, nevertheless he was considered one [by human judgment], on account of the peace he made with the Arians, and by that presumption the pontificate could rightly be taken from him: for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and condemn him as a heretic.” (De Romano Pontifice, bk IV)

How do you square that with your interpretation, and with your claim that the Church merely recognizes the fact of what already happened?
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2018, 09:09:45 AM
That's a separate question.  Bellarmine said the opinion that a pope cannot lose the faith is "probable and easily defendable", but then he addressed what would happen if he did lose the faith, since he admitted that the common opinion is that a pope can fall into heresy.

He referred to it as "pious belief", something for which there's no actual theological proof.  I believe this as well.  If a true Catholic were elected Pope, I don't believe God would allow him even personally to lose the faith.  That's why I hold that these men were most likely infiltrators who never had the faith in the first place.  It's unlikely that any of them were completely orthodox at the time of their election and then somehow lost the faith afterwards.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2018, 09:15:27 AM
Regarding judging the pope, if the Church were not permitted to determine, by human judgment, if a pope is a heretic, it would never be permitted to declare that he lost his office for heresy.  The first judgment is required before the second can be rendered, and if the first is not permitted, the second could never be concluded.  There is no way to escape that logic.

Apparently you completely missed my point.  Yes, the Church "determines" that a Pope is a heretic, but this is not any kind of legal thing but, rather, an awareness or recognition of fact.  And the recognition does not cause the loss of office, but the fact itself does.  So logically the loss of office must occur BEFORE the awareness by the Church.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2018, 09:19:39 AM
How does Bellarmine answer that difficulty?  His answer is found in the 3rd Opinion, where he says “in the case of heresy, a Roman Pontiff can be judged” because heresy “the only reason where it is lawful for inferiors to judge superiors.”  He doesn’t say the reason he can be judged is because he is already “outside the Church and deposed by God.”

Yes, but as you point out, this is a different kind of judgment, a mere "assessment of fact", not a juridical thing.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2018, 09:22:34 AM
In another place, Bellarmine said he does not believe Marcellinus lost his office by his public act of apostasy, yet above he said it was permitted for the Council to be gathered to discuss the case because of the accusation against him.  Bellarmine believes it was licit for a Council to gathered, not simply declare that he wasn’t the pope, but to examine the case in order to determine, by human judgment, if he was guilty as charge.  If they were to make the determination, then they could declare him separated from the Church, and judge him with a coercive judgment.

Yes, this is a determination of fact.  That's my point entirely.  Bellarmine's difficulties are best resolved by sedeprivationism.  Pope formally becomes separated from his office by the heresy, and then the Church materially separates him from office.  Bellarmine's position is messy, based upon some unsubstantiated gratuitous "exception" to the rule papa a nemine judicandus wherein he appears to conflate assessment of fact with some kind of juridical assessment.  But sedeprivationism cleanly resolves this issue.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2018, 10:03:50 AM
You asked earlier the difference between Popes and bishops who are in heresy.  In both cases, they must be materially separated from office, the bishops by the Pope and the Pope by the Church.  But in the case of bishops, the Pope can separate him formally from office as well, since the form of office derives from him.  But the Church cannot separate the Pope formally from office, because the form of the office comes directly from God.  All the Church does is to recognize the fact that God has separated the form of the office from the person to whom it was united, and then materially separates him from the office.  When the Church (via the Cardinals) elects a Pope, the Church DESIGNATES the candidate upon whom God bestows the office.  It's not unlike in some parts of the early Church where the priests would "elect" their local bishop, and then another Bishop, a Metropolitan or some such, with the tacit approval of Rome, would come bestow the form of the office.  In this case, the Church designates the candidate, and God Himself bestows the form of the office.  After God has then removed the form of the office on account of heresy, the Church then LIFTS or REMOVES the DESIGNATION.  So it's the exact reverse of the process by which the man was elected in the first place.  This is the genius of sedeprivationism.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 20, 2018, 12:05:37 PM
You asked earlier the difference between Popes and bishops who are in heresy.  In both cases, they must be materially separated from office, the bishops by the Pope and the Pope by the Church.  But in the case of bishops, the Pope can separate him formally from office as well, since the form of office derives from him.  


Agreed, but you just contradicted your earlier statement.  
 
In the comment above you admitted that (1) a heretical bishop remains in office materially, until he is removed by the Pope.  Earlier you admitted that (2) a heretical bishop “would retain jurisdiction until it's withdrawn by the pope.”  If he remains in office materially and retains his jurisdiction (the form) until is he legally removed, it means he retains his office materially and formally. Yet previously (see the first page in this thread), you claimed that heresy “intrinsically removes from office by its very nature before any crime has been juridically demonstrated.”   
 
That is a contradiction.  If heresy intrinsically removed one from office before the crime has been juridically demonstrated, a heretical bishop would not retain his office materially and formally until he is removed by the Pope, yet you now admit that he does.  
 
Either heresy intrinsically removes from office or it doesn't.  If it does, it applies to a bishop; if it doesn't it proves your assertion is false. How do you reconcile this? 
 
 
More to follow…
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2018, 01:09:11 PM
Either heresy intrinsically removes from office or it doesn't.  If it does, it applies to a bishop; if it doesn't it proves your assertion is false. How do you reconcile this?

It's based on the material vs. formal distinction.

I realize that I did not properly articulate my view regarding bishops retaining jurisdiction.  I have before here on CI, but not within this thread.  Since the jurisdiction of bishops is derived from the pope, as long as they remain materially in office (at the pleasure of the pope), they remain intact as conduits for the papal jurisdiction, as it were.  So, for instance, even if you had a formally heretical bishop who had not yet been deposed from office, the priests in his diocese would still, for instance, receive faculties through the bishop for hearing Confessions, the bishops could appoint pastors to parishes, etc.  So the power of designation and appointment (the material aspects of the office) remain intact until he is materially removed from office by the Pope.  So, when I say that bishops retain jurisdiction, I mean that they remain conduits for the papal jurisdiction and can act as material agents for its exercise.

Similarly, with the papacy, I hold that until (in this case the Church) removes the material aspect of office (i.e. the designation), the Pope can remain a conduit for the authority bestowed by God.  So he can appoint bishops, and appoint cardinals.  Those bishops, if they themselves are not impeded from formally exercising jurisdiction, would do so upon being appointed by a material pope.  But this heretical pope would not have any teaching authority or moral authority in the Church.

And, in the final analysis, is R&R really, for all practical intents and purposes, not all that different.  They recognize the fact that these men hold office materially, but they do not recognize them as having moral authority or teaching authority.  Now the only difference between (my twist on) sedeprivationism and R&R is that sedeprivationism holds that these popes lack moral authority and teaching authority categorically, period, even when it comes to their commands that are not bad or even good ... whereas R&R holds that they only lack authority when what they command or teach is wrong (otherwise they have authority).  Father Chazal recently articulated a position that's closer to sedeprivationism than classic R&R in that he holds that these pope can be categorically ignored and that anything they teach or command is null and void on account of heresy.

Jorge Bergoglio:  "I command that all Catholics say the Rosary tomorrow."
R&R:  "We must comply and say the Rosary."
Sedeprivationism:  "We are not strictly obliged to comply." [but we might anyway because it's a good thing]
Dogmatic Sedevacantists:  "We refuse to say the Rosary tomorrow, even though we normally do anyway, because that might be giving the impression that this man has authority."
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 20, 2018, 02:23:36 PM

Quote
Ladislaus (https://www.cathinfo.com/profile/Ladislaus/): “But the Church cannot separate the Pope formally from office, because the form of the office comes directly from God.  All the Church does is to recognize the fact that God has separated the form of the office from the person to whom it was united, and then [the Church] materially separates him from the office.”


Let me make sure I understand your position.  A pope who falls into heresy is ipso facto ‘deposed by God’ formally, while only remaining the office holder materially, and for this reason he ‘can be judged by the Church’.  All the Church does is recognize and declare the fact that he has been already been deposed by divine law, and then depose him de facto, thereby removing from office materially, he who had already been removed by God formally.  Did I get anything wrong?

The position you hold is the “2nd Opinion” that Bellarmine rejects and refutes (with one difference).   Here is the 2nd Opinion in Bellarmine’s own words.

“The second opinion is that the Pope, in the very instant in which he falls into heresy, even if it is only interior, is outside the Church and deposed by God, for which reason he can be judged by the Church. That is, he is declared deposed by divine law, and deposed de facto, if he still refused to yield.  This is of John de Turrecremata, but it is not proven to me.”

The only difference between your position, and what is described above, is that you believe the heresy must be professed, whereas the 2nd Opinion maintains that he will be deposed by God even if the heresy remains interior.   But the above opinion includes heresy that has been professed as well, since, if it had not been, there would be nothing for the Church to judge, and no cause for him to be "deposed de facto" for heresy.   Next you say:

Quote
Ladislaus (https://www.cathinfo.com/profile/Ladislaus/): “When the Church (via the Cardinals) elects a Pope, the Church DESIGNATES the candidate upon whom God bestows the office.  (…)  the Church designates the candidate, and God Himself bestows the form of the office.  After God has then removed the form of the office on account of heresy, the Church then LIFTS or REMOVES the DESIGNATION.  So it's the exact reverse of the process by which the man was elected in the first place.   This is the genius of sedeprivationism.


That’s not genius.  It’s a post-Vatican II novelty.  When a bishop legally holds office, he possesses the jurisdiction of the office.  You admit that other bishops retain both until they are legally removed, and the same is true for a pope.  The difference concerns how the removal takes place with a pope.

Let’s compare your opinion, as you described it above, to Bellarmine’s refutation of the 2nd Opinion. You say the Cardinal designate the man by election and then God bestows the form of the papacy on him. Then, if the Pope falls into heresy, God first removes him, and then man removes the designation.  Compare that to Bellarmine’s refutation of the 2nd Opinion:   
 
“For Jurisdiction is certainly given to the Pontiff by God, but with the agreement of men, as is obvious; because this man, who beforehand was not Pope, has from men that he would begin to be Pope, therefore, he is not removed by God unless it is through men. But a secret heretic cannot be judged by men, nor would such wish to relinquish that power by his own will.”

Notice what he says: just as the man receives his jurisdiction by God with the agreement of men, so too he is not removed by God (jurisdiction is not taken away by God), unless it is through men.  He doesn’t say he is made pope by God with the agreement of men, then removed partially by God without men, and finally removed the rest of the way by men without God (which is your position).  Just as men and God work together in making him Pope (each doing their respective parts), so too men and God work together to remove him, with each doing their respective parts.  


Consider again Bellarmine’s explanation of the case of Liberius.   When he said the priests of Rome “stripped Liberius of the pontifical dignity,” he did not mean they authoritatively deposed him and deprived him of his jurisdiction.  What he meant is the priests of Rome determined that he was a heretic (to the best of their ability), and then abrogated – legally rendered null - the pontificate (as the Latin shows).  That was the part of men.  The part of God was to authoritatively deprive him of the pontificate formally – but it is clear that Bellarmine did not believe God had already done his part, before the priests of Rome did theirs.  This fits perfectly with his statement that a heretical Pope “is not removed by God unless it is through men.”
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 20, 2018, 02:33:27 PM
Similarly, with the papacy, I hold that until (in this case the Church) removes the material aspect of office (i.e. the designation), the Pope can remain a conduit for the authority bestowed by God.  So he can appoint bishops, and appoint cardinals.  Those bishops, if they themselves are not impeded from formally exercising jurisdiction, would do so upon being appointed by a material pope.  

So you concede that the "material pope" can exercise valid acts of papal jurisdiction?  

Would you say their jurisdiction is habitual or, in a sense, supplied by God for certain acts only?

Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2018, 09:10:24 PM
So you concede that the "material pope" can exercise valid acts of papal jurisdiction?  

Would you say their jurisdiction is habitual or, in a sense, supplied by God for certain acts only?

Only the powers related to designation and/or appointment.  Just as the material Cardinals could elect another material Pope, who could then formally assume office if he converts back to the faith, the same holds true in the other direction, where a Pope could appoint bishops who, if not otherwise impeded themselves, could formally exercise their office.  It's not unlike how there's a material succession from some of the Apostolic Sees that have gone schismatic.  They have no formal authority due to schism, but they have the material continuity.

This also avoids the so-called ecclesiavacantist problem with straight sedevacantism.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2018, 09:24:15 PM
“The second opinion is that the Pope, in the very instant in which he falls into heresy, even if it is only interior, is outside the Church and deposed by God, for which reason he can be judged by the Church. That is, he is declared deposed by divine law, and deposed de facto, if he still refused to yield.  This is of John de Turrecremata, but it is not proven to me.”

The only difference between your position, and what is described above, is that you believe the heresy must be professed, whereas the 2nd Opinion maintains that he will be deposed by God even if the heresy remains interior.   But the above opinion includes heresy that has been professed as well, since, if it had not been, there would be nothing for the Church to judge, and no cause for him to be "deposed de facto" for heresy.   Next you say:

No, no, no.  His entire refutation of this position involves an explanation for why INTERIOR heresy cannot depose.  This is not a refutation of my position at all.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2018, 09:35:19 PM
That’s not genius.  It’s a post-Vatican II novelty.  When a bishop legally holds office, he possesses the jurisdiction of the office.  You admit that other bishops retain both until they are legally removed, and the same is true for a pope.  The difference concerns how the removal takes place with a pope.

Let’s compare your opinion, as you described it above, to Bellarmine’s refutation of the 2nd Opinion. You say the Cardinal designate the man by election and then God bestows the form of the papacy on him. Then, if the Pope falls into heresy, God first removes him, and then man removes the designation.  Compare that to Bellarmine’s refutation of the 2nd Opinion:  
 
“For Jurisdiction is certainly given to the Pontiff by God, but with the agreement of men, as is obvious; because this man, who beforehand was not Pope, has from men that he would begin to be Pope, therefore, he is not removed by God unless it is through men. But a secret heretic cannot be judged by men, nor would such wish to relinquish that power by his own will.”

...

This fits perfectly with his statement that a heretical Pope “is not removed by God unless it is through men.”


I know.  You just keep citing Bellarmine.  I have already said that I disagree with Bellarmine.  This explanation is extremely messy, with another equivocal use of the term "judge".

I'll get back to this tomorrow when I have more time.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: forlorn on September 21, 2018, 08:44:38 AM

Let me make sure I understand your position.  A pope who falls into heresy is ipso facto ‘deposed by God’ formally, while only remaining the office holder materially, and for this reason he ‘can be judged by the Church’.  All the Church does is recognize and declare the fact that he has been already been deposed by divine law, and then depose him de facto, thereby removing from office materially, he who had already been removed by God formally.  Did I get anything wrong?

The position you hold is the “2nd Opinion” that Bellarmine rejects and refutes (with one difference).   Here is the 2nd Opinion in Bellarmine’s own words.

“The second opinion is that the Pope, in the very instant in which he falls into heresy, even if it is only interior, is outside the Church and deposed by God, for which reason he can be judged by the Church. That is, he is declared deposed by divine law, and deposed de facto, if he still refused to yield.  This is of John de Turrecremata, but it is not proven to me.”

The only difference between your position, and what is described above, is that you believe the heresy must be professed, whereas the 2nd Opinion maintains that he will be deposed by God even if the heresy remains interior.   But the above opinion includes heresy that has been professed as well, since, if it had not been, there would be nothing for the Church to judge, and no cause for him to be "deposed de facto" for heresy.   Next you say:


That’s not genius.  It’s a post-Vatican II novelty.  When a bishop legally holds office, he possesses the jurisdiction of the office.  You admit that other bishops retain both until they are legally removed, and the same is true for a pope.  The difference concerns how the removal takes place with a pope.

Let’s compare your opinion, as you described it above, to Bellarmine’s refutation of the 2nd Opinion. You say the Cardinal designate the man by election and then God bestows the form of the papacy on him. Then, if the Pope falls into heresy, God first removes him, and then man removes the designation.  Compare that to Bellarmine’s refutation of the 2nd Opinion:  
 
“For Jurisdiction is certainly given to the Pontiff by God, but with the agreement of men, as is obvious; because this man, who beforehand was not Pope, has from men that he would begin to be Pope, therefore, he is not removed by God unless it is through men. But a secret heretic cannot be judged by men, nor would such wish to relinquish that power by his own will.”

Notice what he says: just as the man receives his jurisdiction by God with the agreement of men, so too he is not removed by God (jurisdiction is not taken away by God), unless it is through men.  He doesn’t say he is made pope by God with the agreement of men, then removed partially by God without men, and finally removed the rest of the way by men without God (which is your position).  Just as men and God work together in making him Pope (each doing their respective parts), so too men and God work together to remove him, with each doing their respective parts.  


Consider again Bellarmine’s explanation of the case of Liberius.   When he said the priests of Rome “stripped Liberius of the pontifical dignity,” he did not mean they authoritatively deposed him and deprived him of his jurisdiction.  What he meant is the priests of Rome determined that he was a heretic (to the best of their ability), and then abrogated – legally rendered null - the pontificate (as the Latin shows).  That was the part of men.  The part of God was to authoritatively deprive him of the pontificate formally – but it is clear that Bellarmine did not believe God had already done his part, before the priests of Rome did theirs.  This fits perfectly with his statement that a heretical Pope “is not removed by God unless it is through men.”
You can't keep citing a person you disagree with as proof. How can what you believe are false statements be proof? 
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 21, 2018, 09:03:09 AM
There are two main problems with Bellarmine's position.

#1 --

Bellarmine:
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because this man, who beforehand was not Pope, has from men that he would begin to be Pope, therefore, he is not removed by God unless it is through men.

Bellarmine argues that because men are the material cause of a Pope receiving power (though the designation of the candidate through election), they can likewise be a material cause of his removal from power.  That simply does not follow.  Otherwise, what would stop the Church from stripping the power from any Pope, even an orthodox one?  Bellarmine doesn't explain.  So this is extremely messy.  He just gratuitously posits that heresy entails an "exception".  You know that when you talk about exceptions, 99% of the time, the core principle or argument is fault.  He needs to explain why, theologically, and ontologically, it's allowed to separate a pope from his office when this cannot be done otherwise ... but he never did.

Sedeprivationism cleans up the mess.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 21, 2018, 10:17:17 AM
I suppose that a man could cause the separation of the authority from the man ... if he killed the Pope.  But that's the only scenario I see.

Bellarmine keeps talking about how the Pope can be "judged" by men in the case of heresy.  But he's using the term equivocally.  And he knows it.  That's why he struggles to distinguish between different types of "judgment" at one point, but then he keeps using the term equivocally.  [that's problem #2 to which I alluded].

So, for instance, he says, that secret heretics do not lose office because they cannot be "judged" by men.  But the only thing that follows is that secret heretics cannot be "recognized" by men as having become heretics.

Let's say that a pope has a stroke and becomes mentally incapacitated.  Most theologians consider this the equivalent of death.  Let's say it takes a couple months for the Church to come to the conclusion that he's lost his faculties and vacated the office.  So the Church "judges" (aka "recognizes the fact") that he's gone insane.  So, on June 1, the man has a stroke and becomes mentally incapacitated.  On June 30, Church officials release a statement that he's lost his mind and that the office is vacant.  Did the office become vacant on June 30 or on June 1.  [Let's put aside the possibility that there was any question that he was insane or that he might recover his faculties; assume that it's clear from the outset that he never would.]  Clearly it was the incapacity that CAUSED the (formal) loss of office on June 1 and not the Church's judgment on June 30.  And the Church could say, "the office has been vacant since June 1".

Now let's say that on June 27th, even as the Church is planning on making the announcement that the office is vacant, the Pope makes a miraculous recovery.  Then the Church withdraws the intention to make the June 30 declaration, and things continue as if it never happened.  So, until the Church REMOVED the designation (the material recognition), the Pope was in a position to resume his office ... without having to be re-designated (i.e. re-elected).

Now let's say that the Church declares the See vacant on June 30, and elects a new Pope on July 15.  Then on July 31st the prior Pope miraculously regains his faculties.  Is he now the Pope?  No, because the Church had already removed the material aspect of the papacy ... which became REMOVABLE once the formal aspect was gone.

Sedeprivationism treats heresy the same way.  It's the heresy itself that removes from office, just like it was the incapacity itself that removed from office.  When the Church makes a judgment, it's merely a "recognition of fact" and not some kind of juridical sentence.  Once the Church recognizes that the formal aspect of authority is gone, removed by God due to heresy, then the material aspect becomes REMOVABLE.  In the case of the V2 papal claimants, however, this material aspect has not actually been removed.  So, if Bergoglio were to convert, then he would resume the exercise of his formal authority.

It's very clean and very neat ... without any need for unexplained "exceptions" to make it work.

Now, the recognition of heresy is a process.

1) Pope says something heretical.

2) People admonish him.

3) He remains pertinacious.

4) Growing awareness that he's heretical.

5) Universal awareness that he's a heretic.

I hold that we're in stage #4 above.  This is the case where it's widely doubted that he's Catholic, the papa dubius scenario (which is why i call myself a "sededoubtist").  And I, along with some serious theologians, hold that a papa dubius cannot formally exercise authority in the Church.  #5) would have to happen before he would be materially stripped of office (i.e. loses recognition).

But, at the end of the day, the "judgment" of the Church is nothing more than an "awareness" ... which can take on formality in the form of a declaration, but I submit that it does not have to.  It could be just tacitly understood by everyone that he's no longer Pope ... as in the case of Bergogio saying "I've become a Buddhist."

Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: forlorn on September 21, 2018, 10:25:00 AM
1) Pope says something heretical.

2) People admonish him.

3) He remains pertinacious.

4) Growing awareness that he's heretical.

5) Universal awareness that he's a heretic.
How is the Church to depose a heretical Pope when said Pope(and his heretical predecessors) filled the College of Cardinals with other heretics? That's a Catch 22 situation. We need a orthodox(small o) Pope to depose the heretical Cardinals, but we need orthodox Cardinals to depose the heretical Pope and elect an orthodox one.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: Ladislaus on September 21, 2018, 11:34:19 AM
How is the Church to depose a heretical Pope when said Pope(and his heretical predecessors) filled the College of Cardinals with other heretics? That's a Catch 22 situation. We need a orthodox(small o) Pope to depose the heretical Cardinals, but we need orthodox Cardinals to depose the heretical Pope and elect an orthodox one.

Even if he's deposed even materially ipso facto, who's going to elect a new Pope?  Same problem applies there, and in either case, God will provide the solution.  All we need to know to go about our lives as Catholics is that these men lack authority.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: forlorn on September 21, 2018, 12:02:27 PM
Even if he's deposed even materially ipso facto, who's going to elect a new Pope?  Same problem applies there, and in either case, God will provide the solution.  All we need to know to go about our lives as Catholics is that these men lack authority.
True, but that's part of the problem. While I definitely think Francis is a heretic, a scenario where we have a heretic Pope who couldn't be deposed because the College is filled with heretics - doesn't that violate the dogma of indefectibility? That applies to basically every opinion of how a Pope would be deposed.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: King Wenceslas on September 26, 2018, 04:20:05 PM
I, KW, hereby declare that there is no need for baptism.

Now, now, now we have to wait for a judicial ruling before I am not a Catholic. Until then I am a Catholic in good standing.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 26, 2018, 06:56:34 PM
Only the powers related to designation and/or appointment.  Just as the material Cardinals could elect another material Pope, who could then formally assume office if he converts back to the faith, the same holds true in the other direction, where a Pope could appoint bishops who, if not otherwise impeded themselves, could formally exercise their office.  It's not unlike how there's a material succession from some of the Apostolic Sees that have gone schismatic.  They have no formal authority due to schism, but they have the material continuity.

You do realize that this position is a complete novelty, right?   The teaching and practice of the Church has always been that a bishop who legally holds office possesses the authority of the office.  In fact, even if a prelate did not legally acquire the office, either due to a defect in the one conferring or in the one receiving, he would nevertheless possess the authority of the office s long as he was believed to have received it legally, due to the color of title.

The same is true in civil law.  Take the case Obama, as an example.  Assuming he was born in Kenya, and therefore not valid "matter" to be elected president, because it was never sufficiently proven, at least not in a legal sense, he retained the authority of the presidency and all his presidential acts were valid.  

Canon law has always taught that the color of title, combined with common error, suffices for the acts of jurisdiction performed by the apparent office holder to be valid.

The Material Pope Thesis (or Material Hierarchy Thesis) is the opposite of what canon law has always taught, and therefore contrary to the mind of the Church, since it maintains that a prelate can legally hold office, yet lack the authority of the office he legally holds.  This is a novelty, and novelty has always been the surest sign of heresy.  
 
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 26, 2018, 07:34:21 PM
You can't keep citing a person you disagree with as proof. How can what you believe are false statements be proof?

Why do you keep saying I disagree with Bellarmine? I said one of the arguments he used against Cajetan was a bad argument, and it was, but that doesn't mean I disagree with him.  What I do disagree with is Cajetan's statement that the Church can authoritatively depose a pope.  Bellarmine was quite right to object to that statement.

The reason I've been quoting Bellarmine is 1) because most sedevacantist treat him as infallible, and 2) to show that they have entirely misunderstood his position (and fallen into serious error as a result).  

Take you, for example.  You thought the statement about faith being a necessary disposition for the papacy is what Bellarmine believed, when Bellarmine himself refuted that very position a few paragraphs earlier.  You took the statement entirely out of context, by failing to realize that he was attempting to use one of Cajetan's arguments against him.  But at least you didn't erect and entirely false system of errors based on that misinterpretation of Bellarmine, like Fr. Kramer did.
Title: Re: Foreward to Fr. Paul Kramer's Soon to be Released "Heretic Pope?"
Post by: AlbertP on September 26, 2018, 08:33:33 PM
Let's say that a pope has a stroke and becomes mentally incapacitated.  Most theologians consider this the equivalent of death.  Let's say it takes a couple months for the Church to come to the conclusion that he's lost his faculties and vacated the office.  So the Church "judges" (aka "recognizes the fact") that he's gone insane.  So, on June 1, the man has a stroke and becomes mentally incapacitated.  On June 30, Church officials release a statement that he's lost his mind and that the office is vacant.  Did the office become vacant on June 30 or on June 1. (...)

The office would not be vacant until the fact of his insanity was "judged" and officially declared by the competent authorities.  

Fr. E. Sylvester Berry: "...no pope has ever been afflicted with insanity, and it is probable that God in His providence will never permit such an unfortunate circuмstance to arise.  But should the condition arise, it would devolve upon the bishops of the Church to establish and declare the fact officially; the cardinals would then proceed to the election of a successor." (Berry, The Church of Christ, An Apologetic and Dogmatif Treatise, 1955, ch. 11).

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Now let's say that on June 27th, even as the Church is planning on making the announcement that the office is vacant, the Pope makes a miraculous recovery.  Then the Church withdraws the intention to make the June 30 declaration, and things continue as if it never happened.  So, until the Church REMOVED the designation (the material recognition), the Pope was in a position to resume his office ... without having to be re-designated (i.e. re-elected).

He didn't resume the office.  He retained it the entire time, and recovered before the fact was declared and another was elected.


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Now let's say that the Church declares the See vacant on June 30, and elects a new Pope on July 15.  Then on July 31st the prior Pope miraculously regains his faculties.  Is he now the Pope?  No, because the Church had already removed the material aspect of the papacy ... which became REMOVABLE once the formal aspect was gone.


Nope.  The material aspect did not become removable because the formal aspect was already gone.  The Pope became removable because he lost his mind and could not govern the Church in that condition.  Because of that, the Church has the right to establish that he was insane and then elect another who can function in the capacity of pope.  Since the Church has the right to do what is necessary to provide that she has head who can actually govern, some time during that process Christ would have separated the insane pope from the papacy and deprived him of the papal authority.  

The Roman Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ.  Christ is the head of the Mystical body.  He has given men, with all their limitations, the authority to govern the Church to the best of their ability, but Christ will always do what is necessary.   If the Church were faced with a Pope who went insane, the authorities would have the duty and corresponding right to determine the extent of incapacity and, if it was severe, to legally declare him removed from the office and elect another.   If the men did their part, Christ would do His.  But it is entirely unreasonable to believe that Christ would deprive a man of the papacy while the Church continued to recognize him as Pope, and while He continued to function in that capacity.

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Sedeprivationism treats heresy the same way.  It's the heresy itself that removes from office, just like it was the incapacity itself that removed from office.  When the Church makes a judgment, it's merely a "recognition of fact" and not some kind of juridical sentence.  Once the Church recognizes that the formal aspect of authority is gone, removed by God due to heresy, then the material aspect becomes REMOVABLE.  In the case of the V2 papal claimants, however, this material aspect has not actually been removed.  So, if Bergoglio were to convert, then he would resume the exercise of his formal authority.

But what if the "fact" is not certain? What if a pope is suspected of heresy, but it is not certain?  What if some people think he's a heretic, while others do not?   Would Christ deprive him of the Papacy while the hierarchy and a majority of Catholics thought he was not a heretic, while 5% of Catholic thought they "recognize the fact" that he was?  What if the 5% were mistaken about the fact?  What if 25%, or even 50% of Catholics thought they "recognized the fact" of his heresy, while the remaining Catholics did not?  Would that degree of notoriety suffice for Christ to deprive him of the Papacy?  

Or does it seem more reasonable that Christ would wait until "the fact" of his heresy was "recognized" by the authorities - by those who have the training necessary to distinguish heresy from lesser errors, who know how to determine, with a sufficient  degree of certitude, that a person who is suspected of heresy is, in fact, a heretic, and who possess the authority to declare the fact to the faithful?  

Since it is Christ who not only deprives a heretical Pope of his authority, but also chooses when to do so; and since the Magisterium is the office established by Christ to teach the faithful, and who He commands the faithful to obey, doesn't it seem more reasonable that He would wait until the heresy was established and declared by members of the Magisterium before depriving the Pope of his authority?   Of course it does.


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But, at the end of the day, the "judgment" of the Church is nothing more than an "awareness" ... which can take on formality in the form of a declaration, but I submit that it does not have to.  It could be just tacitly understood by everyone that he's no longer Pope ... as in the case of Bergogio saying "I've become a Buddhist."

Now this is where we agree.  If a pope openly left the Church and become a professing Buddhist, and if the fact of his apostasy was widely known by the Church, no "judgment" would be necessary, since it would leave no room for doubt that he was an apostate.  In that case, all that would be required is for the Church to elect another.