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Author Topic: For those who haven't heard of them: Old Catholics  (Read 875 times)

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Offline Matthew

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For those who haven't heard of them: Old Catholics
« on: May 25, 2009, 03:24:37 PM »
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  • The First Vatican Council was convoked by Pope Pius IX on 29 June 1868, after a period of planning and preparation that began on 6 December 1864.[1] This twentieth ecuмenical council of the Roman Catholic Church,[2] held three centuries after the Council of Trent, opened on 8 December 1869 and adjourned on 20 October 1870.[1] Unlike the four earlier General Councils held in Rome, which met in the Lateran Basilica and are known as the Lateran Councils, it met in the Vatican Basilica, whence its name of First Vatican Council. Its best-known decision is its definition of papal infallibility.

    The doctrine of papal infallibility was not new and had been used by Pope Pius in defining as dogma, in 1854, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the mother of Jesus.[3] However, the proposal to define papal infallibility itself as dogma met with resistance, not because of doubts about the substance of the proposed definition, but because some considered it inopportune to take that step at that time.[3] A minority, some 20 percent of the bishops, feared that defining papal infallibility would alienate some Catholics, create new difficulties for union with non-Catholics and would provoke interference by governments in Church affairs.[1] Those who held this view included most of the German and Austro-Hungarian bishops, nearly half of the Americans, and one third of the French; of the Eastern Catholics, most of the Chaldaeans and Melkites, and a few Armenians shared this view.[1] Only a few bishops appear to have had doubts about the dogma itself.[1]

    [edit] Dei Filius

    On 24 April 1870 the dogmatic constitution on the catholic faith Dei Filius was adopted unanimously. The draft presented to the Council on 8 March drew no serious criticism. A group of 35 English-speaking bishops, who feared that the opening phrase "Sancta romana catholica Ecclesia" might be construed as favouring the Anglican Branch Theory, succeeded in having an additional adjective inserted, so that the final text read: "Sancta catholica apostolica romana Ecclesia"[4] The constitution thus set forth the teaching of the "Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church" on God, revelation and faith.[5]

    [edit] Pastor Aeternus

    There was stronger opposition to the draft constitution on the nature of the Church, which at first did not include the question of papal infallibility,[2] but the majority party in the Council, whose position on this matter was much stronger,[3] brought it forward. It was decided to postpone discussion of everything in the draft except infallibility.[3] On 13 July 1870, the section on infallibility was voted on: 451 voted simply in favour (placet), 88 against (non placet), and 62 in favour but on condition of some amendment (placet iuxta modum).[3] This made evident what the final outcome would be, and some 60 members of the opposition left Rome so as not to be associated with approval of the docuмent. The final vote, with a choice only between placet and non placet, was taken on 18 July 1870, with 533 votes in favour and only 2 against defining as a dogma the infallibility of the pope when speaking ex cathedra.[2]

    The dogmatic constitution states that the Pope has "full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church" (chapter 3:9); and that, when he "speaks ex cathedra, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals" (chapter 4:9).

    None of the bishops who had argued that proclaiming the definition was inopportune refused to accept it. Some Catholics, mainly of German language and largely inspired by the historian Johann Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger (who did not formally join the new group) formed the separate Old Catholic Church in protest.[6]
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    Offline Matthew

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    For those who haven't heard of them: Old Catholics
    « Reply #1 on: May 25, 2009, 03:26:01 PM »
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  • Want to say "thank you"? 
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    Offline roscoe

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    For those who haven't heard of them: Old Catholics
    « Reply #2 on: May 25, 2009, 03:59:33 PM »
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  • Classicom is our resident old catholic. I believe David Ferrie( of JFK assassination fame) was also old catholic.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Telesphorus

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    For those who haven't heard of them: Old Catholics
    « Reply #3 on: May 25, 2009, 04:11:21 PM »
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  • "Old Catholics" have been liberals from the beginning.

    Quote
    Undaunted they met again in September of 1871. Some of their new demands included democratization of the Church, repudiation of all dogmas not considered to be in harmony with the contemporary consciousness of the Church, ecuмenism adherence to the secular government against the authority of Rome, and the insistence that the laity had the ultimate control over the property of the Church.

    As you can readily see, their doctrinal and disciplinary positions are neither "Old" nor "Catholic." If anything they prove that the Old Catholic movement was a liberal and modernist movement. Indeed most contemporary modernists would have little difficulty accepting most of their tenets.

    They decided in principle to form their own parishes at the same meeting, a move which was, however, repudiated by Dollinger who, nevertheless, remained firm in his heretical teachings until his death. In 1872, assisted by Jansenist and Anglican bishops, and, by Russian Orthodox and Protestant clergy, they took the practical steps to organize their parishes, and, in June of 1873 they elected a certain Professor Reinkens as their bishop. Reinkens was consecrated by the schismatic Jansenist Bishop of Rotterdam on August 11, 1873. Pius IX excommunicated Reinkens in November of the same year.

    By 1875, they had abolished confession, clerical celibacy, and, the use of Latin. In the same year Reinkens consecrated Dr. Herzog bishop for the "Christian Catholic National Church" of Switzerland. Dr. Herzog will appear again in our narrative as the person who allegedly raised Joseph Rene Vilatte to the priesthood, thus beginning Vilatte's career as one of the key figures in the development of Old Catholic sects in the United States."


    http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu205.htm

    Offline Classiccom

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    For those who haven't heard of them: Old Catholics
    « Reply #4 on: May 26, 2009, 08:37:00 AM »
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  •   I am a supporter of legitimate Papal authority.

       There were a lot of Polish people that left the Chruch after 1870. I heard Fr. Johnson mention that most of these people (Poland and Europe) ended up the the Russian Orthodox Church.  Check out this Fr. Matthew Johnson on his radio program. He was a former SSPX who could not handle the contradictions of the present Chuch insanity.

      Here is a link for his program

    http://reasonradionetwork.com/?p=2165

    ----------------------

    http://www.traditio.com/comment/com0905.htm

    May 27, 2009 - St. Bede the Venerable, Confessor & Doctor
    Double Feast
    Benedict-Ratzinger Recognizes Formally-schismatic Chinese Patriotic National Church
    Says that Newchurchers Don't Have to Go to Sites that Recognize the Pope
    From: The Fathers
    Benedict-Ratzinger Statues
    Will the Real Catholic Pope Please Stand Up?
    Having Proclaimed Earlier in May 2009 that Jєωs Were Not to Be Evangelized or Converted
    Benedict-Ratzinger Has Now Declared that Newchurchers Need Have No Compunctions
    About Attending the Formally-schismatic and Communist Patriotic National Church of China

    Benedict-Ratzinger's Compendium to the Church in China, issued on May 25, 2009, has given Newchurch recognition to the Communist Church of China, known as the Patriotic National Church. In doing so, he has rejected those Chinese who have remained faithful to him in the so-called "Underground Church." To the contrary, Pope Pius XII in 1951 excommunicated the Patriotic National Church when the Communists took power in China and took control of the Church. To this day, the Communist Government of China has arrested, tortured, and even killed Newchurch clergy and laity.

    The Compendium, taken in conjunction with Benedict-Ratzinger's declaration in May 2009 that Newchurch will no longer evangelize or convert Jєωs, seems to indicate even more strongly that he is dumping doctrinal Catholicism for political "oecuмenism." Benedict-Ratzinger declared in the Compendium that those who "feel the need of the sacraments for their own spiritual good" may go to schismatic sects not only for "communion" and the "sacraments." The principle extends beyond the Chinese PNC to churches "not in communion with the pope.... The final decision will be taken by the individual Catholic."

    Benedict-Ratzinger's announcement contrasts completely with that of Pope St. Pius V when the Catholics of England asked whether they could worship at the schismatic Anglican service of Henry VIII, in view of the fact that the law of England now required them to do so and penalized them severely if they did not. Pope St. Pius V declared an unqualified refusal to countenance any association whatsoever with heretics in any form of religious worship because not only was there a question of association with heretics but also assistance at their services must be interpreted as a public profession of their own heresy.

    Good Catholics, if any of you had any false compunctions worshipping at traditional Catholic sites outside "communion" with the Newchurch structure, whatever position those sites might have on the status of the Conciliar popes, you need no longer have any such compunctions. Benedict-Ratzinger's statement enunciates a new general principle, which obviously extends beyond China. In his own words, "the final decision will be taken by the individual Catholic."