Author Topic: For Those Puzzled and Consternated by Pope Francis (Read 1751 times)

Hobbledehoy · « **on:** October 06, 2013, 06:29:10 PM »

There are those who have been bewildered and saddened by opinions given by the man whom millions of Catholics regard as Pope Francis during the course of recent interviews and public statements. These Catholics have been compelled in the midst of their obfuscation to seek clarity or simplicity in certain sedevacantist individuals (whether from amongst the layfolk or from the number of acephalous and vagrant clergy) who have pronounced various statements of a juridical and theological nature as if they were categorical propositions that could be proven apodictically.

Even if such were the case regarding these opinions, none of those sedevacantists who have formulated them can ever claim the requisite Canonical training, office, mission and jurisdiction that would oblige Catholics to give assent to their views; or to have Catholics unquestionably accept such individuals as authoritative representatives of Catholic faith and morals together with their casuistic application in these tumultuous times. It is therefore fallacious at best to regard the matter, as some have stated, "If I have to choose between Francis or [fill in here the name of sedevacantist pundit of choice], I would pick the latter."

Actually, this is not necessary. You do not have to choose to do anything different, if you have already been professing and practicing the Catholic faith. Nor is it necessary for one to adopt any given demagogue amongst the aforementioned individuals as a new "ecclesiological father-figure"--- become a party-liner to ideological platforms whose histories and ramifications (on the theoretical and practical spheres) one may not be able to fully comprehend in the wake of the present bewilderment; especially if one is relatively new to the sundry varieties of the sedevacantist opinions and the complex comity of the differing/rivaling/warring historiographical, political, liturgical, theological and pastoral stances of each of these varieties.

If you do choose to go ahead and become a party-liner or a whole-hearted devotee of the aforementioned individuals, that is your choice: just please don't engage in sanctimonious bullying, becoming a narrow-minded propagandist who elevates personal opinions to the detriment of fraternal charity and peace.

I speak as a layman without any authority to command individual consciences but with much experience in dealing with these sedevacantist varieties, having been exceedingly puzzled and consternated by the political and societal dynamics of these rivaling ideologies, which people erroneously suppose to be a unified sedevacantist front; so much so that the recent statements of Francis have had little effect upon me personally (betrayal, hypocrisy, disillusionment, &c., are unfortunately too well known to me).

Practicing and professing the holy Faith and persevering in prayer (especially the Holy Rosary, mental prayer and self-examination), whilst fulfilling the duties of state, are indispensable and alone are necessary. Anything further can only have relative significance, if not outright remain altogether extraneous.

Christ Himself shall care for His sacred Spouse and shall forthwith vindicate His rights and those of Holy Mother Church. It is for Our Lady to carry out this great work.

Take it or leave it, but the exigencies of fraternal charity have compelled me to compose the foregoing. What Rev. Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., has to say, however, is necessary for everyone of us to consider, from The Love of God and the Cross of Jesus, (trans. Sr. Jeanne Marie, O. P. Vol. 1. St. Louis, MO: B. Herder Book Co., 1951).

2Vermont · « **Reply #1 on:** October 06, 2013, 06:37:43 PM »

Quote from: Hobbledehoy

If you do choose to go ahead and become a party-liner or a whole-hearted devotee of the aforementioned individuals, that is your choice: just please don't engage in sanctimonious bullying, becoming a narrow-minded propagandist who elevates personal opinions to the detriment of fraternal charity and peace.

I'm sorry but have you seen such bullying here by sedes recently? Because I haven't. In fact, most of what I've seen lately has been sedes in defense mode.

Hobbledehoy · « **Reply #2 on:** October 06, 2013, 06:50:27 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: Hobbledehoy

If you do choose to go ahead and become a party-liner or a whole-hearted devotee of the aforementioned individuals, that is your choice: just please don't engage in sanctimonious bullying, becoming a narrow-minded propagandist who elevates personal opinions to the detriment of fraternal charity and peace.

I'm sorry but have you seen such bullying here by sedes recently? Because I haven't. In fact, most of what I've seen lately has been sedes in defense mode.

I have in mind the "dogmatic sedevacantists" who have disgraced their better-minded peers in this forum in times past. Most of their posts have been deleted because of their gross errors and sheer malice/ignorance: anything from condemning the late Archbishop Lefebvre as a heretic to saying that attending SSPX Masses is a mortal sin to the Pete 'n Mike Dimond variety of freaks to whatever else the human mind can conjure forth.

There issue had been recently addressed by Matthew:

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Dogmatic-Sedevacantism-is-Schism

There are plenty of threads posted in the past in the Crisis in the Church subforum that substantiate what Matthew says in that thread.

Jehanne · « **Reply #3 on:** October 06, 2013, 08:57:45 PM »

As someone whose been on "both sides," I did not believe that someone like "Pope" Francis was even a possibility. "Bad teaching," yes; "public heresy," no. That latter possibility, I believed, would be forever excluded by the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.

Well, I was wrong, not the Catholic Faith (which is absolutely perfect and immutable), of course, but my private understanding of it. As for "dogmatic sedevacantism," I think that everyone here has their (your) limits. When "Pope" Francis starts denying the Bodily Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and/or diminishes Him to no more than a "pastor and teacher" or our Lady's Assumption to that of "allegory," I think that more of you will cross the Sedehold of Hope.

s2srea · « **Reply #4 on:** October 06, 2013, 11:33:25 PM »

I think the majority of sede's in existence have been on 'both sides' at one point.

s2srea · « **Reply #5 on:** October 06, 2013, 11:36:50 PM »

Hobbledehoy-

It takes a lot of courage to do what you did. Thank you for being so willing to put the truth 'out there'. Of course, I'm sure man will see your condemnation of errors held by some as a description of all; but it's clear you're making distinctions here. There should be caution when deciding to ascribe to the position of sedevecantism; not so much because of the opinion/ position itself, though there are dangers there as well, but because it especially draws some eccentric and extreme personalities, and we must be wise as you are and what you are essentially recommending: wise as serpents and simple as doves.

Mabel · « **Reply #6 on:** October 06, 2013, 11:38:50 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

I think the majority of sede's in existence have been on 'both sides' at one point.

Yep. I can still remember taunting sedes almost 20 years ago, saying "JP2, I love you" just to get under their skin. And then later, I adopted the position myself.

I certainly wish I could go back in time and smack myself upside the head.

Mabel · « **Reply #7 on:** October 06, 2013, 11:44:32 PM »

Excellent post by the way.

Refusal to take on authority not given to us, I believe, keeps us from crossing the line, no matter which position we take-- in addition to the many excellent practices listed. I often tell others, there is a line, a limit, and we do not cross it. It is a delicate balance.

2Vermont · « **Reply #8 on:** October 07, 2013, 04:14:57 AM »

Quote from: Hobbledehoy

Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Hobbledehoy

If you do choose to go ahead and become a party-liner or a whole-hearted devotee of the aforementioned individuals, that is your choice: just please don't engage in sanctimonious bullying, becoming a narrow-minded propagandist who elevates personal opinions to the detriment of fraternal charity and peace.

I'm sorry but have you seen such bullying here by sedes recently? Because I haven't. In fact, most of what I've seen lately has been sedes in defense mode.

I have in mind the "dogmatic sedevacantists" who have disgraced their better-minded peers in this forum in times past. Most of their posts have been deleted because of their gross errors and sheer malice/ignorance: anything from condemning the late Archbishop Lefebvre as a heretic to saying that attending SSPX Masses is a mortal sin to the Pete 'n Mike Dimond variety of freaks to whatever else the human mind can conjure forth.

There issue had been recently addressed by Matthew:

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Dogmatic-Sedevacantism-is-Schism

There are plenty of threads posted in the past in the Crisis in the Church subforum that substantiate what Matthew says in that thread.

Those seem to be few and far between and I'm sure Matthew will deal with those (and has) when the need arises.

TKGS · « **Reply #9 on:** October 07, 2013, 05:45:30 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: Hobbledehoy
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Hobbledehoy

If you do choose to go ahead and become a party-liner or a whole-hearted devotee of the aforementioned individuals, that is your choice: just please don't engage in sanctimonious bullying, becoming a narrow-minded propagandist who elevates personal opinions to the detriment of fraternal charity and peace.

I'm sorry but have you seen such bullying here by sedes recently? Because I haven't. In fact, most of what I've seen lately has been sedes in defense mode.

I have in mind the "dogmatic sedevacantists" who have disgraced their better-minded peers in this forum in times past. Most of their posts have been deleted because of their gross errors and sheer malice/ignorance: anything from condemning the late Archbishop Lefebvre as a heretic to saying that attending SSPX Masses is a mortal sin to the Pete 'n Mike Dimond variety of freaks to whatever else the human mind can conjure forth.

There issue had been recently addressed by Matthew:

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Dogmatic-Sedevacantism-is-Schism

There are plenty of threads posted in the past in the Crisis in the Church subforum that substantiate what Matthew says in that thread.

Those seem to be few and far between and I'm sure Matthew will deal with those (and has) when the need arises.

There few dogmatic sedevacantists on this forum (as they usually find themselves outside the forum), if any. On the other hand, there seems to be quite a few dogmatic anti-sedevacantists on this forum and they post with frequency and with acrimony.

2Vermont is correct that sedevacantists have been on the defense lately. I do not understand how you can possibly see that as "bullying" on their part.

s2srea · « **Reply #10 on:** October 07, 2013, 10:21:59 AM »

Quote from: TKGS

There few dogmatic sedevacantists on this forum (as they usually find themselves outside the forum), if any. On the other hand, there seems to be quite a few dogmatic anti-sedevacantists on this forum and they post with frequency and with acrimony.

2Vermont is correct that sedevacantists have been on the defense lately. I do not understand how you can possibly see that as "bullying" on their part.

I don't know that the OP was directed to sede's of this forum exclusively. I think it refers to those in the 'sede-land' in general. Just an observation.

TKGS · « **Reply #11 on:** October 07, 2013, 11:16:24 AM »

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: TKGS

There few dogmatic sedevacantists on this forum (as they usually find themselves outside the forum), if any. On the other hand, there seems to be quite a few dogmatic anti-sedevacantists on this forum and they post with frequency and with acrimony.

2Vermont is correct that sedevacantists have been on the defense lately. I do not understand how you can possibly see that as "bullying" on their part.

I don't know that the OP was directed to sede's of this forum exclusively. I think it refers to those in the 'sede-land' in general. Just an observation.

If that were the case, why would he bring it up? It seemed to me (and still does) that the OP was directed at the sedevacantists on this forum whom he sees as bullies.

s2srea · « **Reply #12 on:** October 07, 2013, 02:08:24 PM »

Quote from: Hobbledehoy

...These Catholics have been compelled in the midst of their obfuscation to seek clarity or simplicity in certain sedevacantist individuals (whether from amongst the layfolk or from the number of acephalous and vagrant clergy) who have pronounced various statements of a juridical and theological nature as if they were categorical propositions that could be proven apodictically...

If you do choose to go ahead and become a party-liner or a whole-hearted devotee of the aforementioned individuals, that is your choice: just please don't engage in sanctimonious bullying, becoming a narrow-minded propagandist who elevates personal opinions to the detriment of fraternal charity and peace.

I still do not see as much, but will let hobbledehoy speak for himself . My quote above shows he is speaking in general terms of 'layfolk' and 'clergy' who 'set themselves up' as if to be certain/ infallible- but it doesn't specify that this is limited to this or other forums, though this is where the large majority of trads in general are able to 'congregate'.

SJB · « **Reply #13 on:** October 07, 2013, 02:19:47 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: Hobbledehoy
...These Catholics have been compelled in the midst of their obfuscation to seek clarity or simplicity in certain sedevacantist individuals (whether from amongst the layfolk or from the number of acephalous and vagrant clergy) who have pronounced various statements of a juridical and theological nature as if they were categorical propositions that could be proven apodictically...

If you do choose to go ahead and become a party-liner or a whole-hearted devotee of the aforementioned individuals, that is your choice: just please don't engage in sanctimonious bullying, becoming a narrow-minded propagandist who elevates personal opinions to the detriment of fraternal charity and peace.

I still do not see as much, but will let hobbledehoy speak for himself . My quote above shows he is speaking in general terms of 'layfolk' and 'clergy' who 'set themselves up' as if to be certain/ infallible- but it doesn't specify that this is limited to this or other forums, though this is where the large majority of trads in general are able to 'congregate'.

Ask yourself what sede clergy has been on the radio giving opinions on recent events.

s2srea · « **Reply #14 on:** October 07, 2013, 02:28:32 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Ask yourself what sede clergy has been on the radio giving opinions on recent events.

I don't follow...