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Author Topic: for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?  (Read 5651 times)

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Offline Geremia

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for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
« on: May 15, 2016, 06:35:38 PM »
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  • Sedeprivationism says the post-Vatican II pope claimants have been validly designated popes (they're material popes) but have not received authority from God to formally become popes, due to the impediment of their being manifest heretics or acting contrary to the exultation of the Church.

    Sedeprivationists consider the members of the electoral college heretics and thus non-members.

    Thus, according to sedeprivationists, how can non-members validly designate a material pope?

    __________________________________________________________________________________
    cf.:
    EXPLANATION OF THE THESIS OF BISHOP GUE?RARD DES LAURIERS
    and
    ON BEING POPE MATERIALLY
    by Bp. Sanborn
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
    « Reply #1 on: May 15, 2016, 06:53:47 PM »
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  • "but have not received authority from God to formally become popes, "

    In other words, they are sedevacantist but afraid to say it!   :scared2:
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline Geremia

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    for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
    « Reply #2 on: May 15, 2016, 07:46:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    IIn other words, they are sedevacantist but afraid to say it!
    Sedeprivationists and sedevacantists are very similar, yes.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
    « Reply #3 on: May 15, 2016, 08:00:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    "but have not received authority from God to formally become popes, "

    In other words, they are sedevacantist but afraid to say it!   :scared2:


    No, it's because you have absolutely no idea what material and formal mean.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
    « Reply #4 on: May 15, 2016, 08:03:02 PM »
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  • Because the merely-material aspects of succession can pass through those who have materially received these aspects of succession themselves.  Designation of a pope is one of those material aspects.  Read the Catholic Encyclopedia regarding the material succession of the non-Roman Apostolic Sees (e.g. among the Orthodox).


    Offline Geremia

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    for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
    « Reply #5 on: May 15, 2016, 08:30:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Read the Catholic Encyclopedia regarding the material succession of the non-Roman Apostolic Sees (e.g. among the Orthodox).
    Yes, Bp. Sanborn mentioned material succession in his articles.
    Sedeprivationists consider the Novus Ordo rite of episcopal consecration invalid, and Orthodox have a valid bishops and valid succession, though, right? How could a conclave consisting of laymen, then, produce a material pope? What prevents sedeprivationists from being conclavists?
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    Offline qeddeq

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    for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
    « Reply #6 on: May 15, 2016, 09:10:19 PM »
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  • i like Bishop Sanborn. he's like a pitbull for the  holy roman catholic church. the accent alone is great.

    Offline qeddeq

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    for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
    « Reply #7 on: May 15, 2016, 09:14:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Geremia
    Sedeprivationism says the post-Vatican II pope claimants have been validly designated popes (they're material popes) but have not received authority from God to formally become popes, due to the impediment of their being manifest heretics or acting contrary to the exultation of the Church.

    Sedeprivationists consider the members of the electoral college heretics and thus non-members.

    Thus, according to sedeprivationists, how can non-members validly designate a material pope?

    __________________________________________________________________________________
    cf.:
    EXPLANATION OF THE THESIS OF BISHOP GUÉRARD DES LAURIERS
    and
    ON BEING POPE MATERIALLY
    by Bp. Sanborn


    wait, how can a heretic be pope? A heretic isn't even a catholic, if you're not a catholic you can hardly be the pope.


    Offline Cantarella

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    for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
    « Reply #8 on: May 15, 2016, 10:40:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Geremia

    Sedeprivationists consider the members of the electoral college heretics and thus non-members


    I do not think that this is necessarily so. This is G. Des Lauriers in the Cassiciacuм Thesis (commonly known as *sedeprivationism*):

    Quote from: Cahiers de Cassiciacuм

    Under these conditions, should one not state that those who
    recognize John-Paul II (and Paul VI) as formally pope(s) are
    effectively no longer members of the Church, which is to say that
    they find themselves no longer visibly belonging to the Church?

         In other words, should we not consider them, as regards
    BELONGING to the Church, like the Orthodox or the Protestants?

         Such a conclusion would be illegitimate.

         One should not forget that the PRESENT living Magisterium
    and that alone, which is divinely instituted in order to
    authentically present everything which is the object of the Faith
    is PRESENTLY involved.


    And:

    Quote from: Cahiers de Cassiciacuм

    Thus one CANNOT state that those who recognize John-Paul II
    as formally Pope are because of this, personally guilty of the
    sin of heresy or of schism and that they thus place themselves
    outside the Church.

         Moreover, one cannot state that those persons who adhere to
    the "Conciliar Church" are outside the Church because they adhere
    to a non-Catholic sect.  We have already pointed this out, but
    will add further provisions here.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
    « Reply #9 on: May 15, 2016, 10:46:29 PM »
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  • There is another relevant quote from the Thesis:

    Quote from: Cahiers de Cassiciacuм

    The case for the material permanence of the hierarchy in the
    present crisis is thus established by the principle of "non
    desertion."

    But how is Jesus still concretely with His Church considered
    as a human society?  To this question which should be answered we
    respond: by maintaining in place the visible hierarchical
    structure, even while allowing the great trial which the eclipse
    of Authority and the absence of her supernatural functions
    involves, to continue.

         This permanence of the hierarchical structure constitutes
    the foundation while patiently awaiting the divine renovation of
    Authority; and it assures the material continuity of the
    hierarchical succession, a continuity absolutely required for the
    Church to retain her Apostolic Nature.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
    « Reply #10 on: May 16, 2016, 01:54:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: Geremia
    Sedeprivationists consider the Novus Ordo rite of episcopal consecration invalid, [...] right? How could a conclave consisting of laymen, then, produce a material pope?


    Read Cantarella's comments above, especially her last one.

    I think privationists assert the NO episcopal rite to be valid.

    If it's suspected to be invalid, I think they still hold the position that suspicion is not proof, but I wouldn't be surprised if a privationist bishop conditionally ordains a priest if he ever came from the NO, just to be on the safe side.
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)


    Offline Ladislaus

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    for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
    « Reply #11 on: May 16, 2016, 09:44:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: ascent
    Quote from: Geremia
    Sedeprivationists consider the Novus Ordo rite of episcopal consecration invalid, [...] right? How could a conclave consisting of laymen, then, produce a material pope?


    Read Cantarella's comments above, especially her last one.

    I think privationists assert the NO episcopal rite to be valid.

    If it's suspected to be invalid, I think they still hold the position that suspicion is not proof, but I wouldn't be surprised if a privationist bishop conditionally ordains a priest if he ever came from the NO, just to be on the safe side.


    Not necessarily.  But the sedeprivationists do not consider valid Holy Orders to be a prerequisite for the "power of designation" ... or purely-material succession.  They would obviously hold it to be necessary for the formal exercise of authority and jurisdiction.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
    « Reply #12 on: May 16, 2016, 10:18:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: MyrnaM
    "but have not received authority from God to formally become popes, "

    In other words, they are sedevacantist but afraid to say it!   :scared2:


    No, it's because you have absolutely no idea what material and formal mean.


    If they have not received authority from God to formally become pope, then they are not the Vicar of Christ.  Now if you say ... sometime in the future with the power of God who can effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible, a conversion for example, of course we can have a valid Pope, the sedevacantist in the proper sense believes that as well.

    Ladisaus the only difference is a sedevacantist declares "it is what it is" presently, and the privationist emphasis "it is what it might be".  

    Isn't that the gist of it, Ladislaus?  I am willing to learn!  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
    « Reply #13 on: May 16, 2016, 11:13:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Isn't that the gist of it, Ladislaus?  I am willing to learn!


    Bishop Sanborn draws a good simple analogy to make it understandable.  It's like the difference between a President-elect and the President in U.S. politics.  After the election in November, he becomes the President-elect, but he doesn't assume any ACTUAL authority until the inauguration in January.

    So when a lot of sedevacantists say, "That's nonsense.  Either he is the pope or he isn't." -- that's due to a failure to understand the notion of distinctions.

    With the appropriate distinction, he can be the pope and not be the pope at the same time.  How's that?  He can be the pope in one respect but not the pope in another respect.  So after he's elected, he is the pope in terms of having been designated by legal electors to be the pope but is not yet the pope in terms of having formally assumed the ability to exercise authority in the Church (due to various impediments).  It would be like the state of a pope who had been elected by the Cardinal electors and before he accepted (and in the case of a on-bishop had been consecrated bishop).

    Now let's say that this pope-elect or pope-designate took five days to decide whether to accept the papacy.  During that time, he would still be in a position to accept and assume the papacy at any time, i.e. to formally assume the authority, but would not actually have any authority until he accepted and therefore formally assumed the office.

    Just a few examples to distinguish between the material designation and the formal assumption of office vis-a-vis authority.

    Now, the beauty of sedeprivationism is that it completely addresses the R&R objections regarding perpetual succession and also ecclesiavacantism (both problems with standard sedevacantism).  So a pope who's been designated and accepted, can in turn designated bishops to fill various episcopal vacancies.  Any bishops who themselves do not have any formal impediments to exercising office (i.e. are not heretics, have valid orders, etc.) can in fact formally assume office upon the material designation even from a material pope.

    Sedeprivationism also rules out conclavism.

    Offline Nishant

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    for sedeprivationists: How can heretics designate a pope?
    « Reply #14 on: May 16, 2016, 11:18:31 AM »
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  • Cantarella, quoting Fr. Guerard said, "This permanence of the hierarchical structure constitutes the foundation while patiently awaiting the divine renovation of Authority; and it assures the material continuity of the hierarchical succession, a continuity absolutely required for the Church to retain her Apostolic Nature." It's amazing so many of those who believe in sedevacantism simpliciter don't even see the problem. At least Fr. Guerard sees the problem and attempts a solution.

    Now, the proposed solution itself is unsatisfactory for a few reasons. First, because it is a novelty, the Church has never held traditionally that the power of jurisdiction itself is composed of matter and form; no, all theologians held and clearly taught that the power of order was the matter of the episcopate, which disposes a man to receive authority, while the power of jurisdiction was the form of Apostolic succession, by which he actually receives and exercise it. Matter and form are related as potency and act. A body as such is capable of being alive, but that it is actually alive, says St. Thomas, it owes to the vivifying principle of life that is the soul. The soul is the formal cause of life, while the body is the material cause. In a similar way, orders is the material cause of the episcopate, while jurisdiction is the formal cause. But is jurisdiction itself again subdivided into matter and form? Certainly, such a thing is not suggested by the canonists.

    Some sedeprivationists will appeal to the Orthodox, saying they possess the material element of Apostolic succession but not the formal element. But this is because they possess the power of order, if they lost it, they would without doubt lose all connection whatsoever to the episcopate, just like the Protestants have. And yet most sedeprivationists believe the new rite to be invalid, so what exactly is the "matter" of the Papacy that Pope Francis possesses?
     
    The second argument against sedeprivationism comes from the fact that the visible succession cannot be separated from the exercise of authority in the way Fr. Guerard proposes. For if it could, then what the Church has always argued against Protestants, schismatics etc is wrong. For the Church, all the Fathers, say that where the Apostolic succession, especially the principal or Petrine Succession in Rome, is continued uninterrupted from the time of the Apostles, there and there alone you will also find the Church. Consequently, if the church could be in one place and the material succession, even Petrine succession, in another, the Orthodox or any other group could also say, yes, the Apostolic and even Petrine succession is continued materially in Rome, but will become formal again only when Rome becomes (schismatic) "Orthodox". And this is clearly inadmissible. Therefore, such a separation is impossible, for it is precisely where the Apostolicity of the Church is found that the indefectibility of the Magisterium also resides.

    As Brunsmann Preuss put it, "In order to be able to distinguish with certainty the true Church of Christ from all false claimants, it is sufficient to establish the Apostolic Succession with regard to the primacy of Peter ... Hence that Church, and that Church only, which can trace its rulers to the first primate, namely, St. Peter, is in fact and by right Apostolic in every sense." Note that here there is no suggestion that the true church can be elsewhere apart from the Petrine succession; for the visible line of succession itself is the infallible guarantee of where the true Apostolic, and therefore Catholic, Church is.

    Third, while this statement "the material continuity of the hierarchical succession, a continuity absolutely required for the Church to retain her Apostolic Nature" is true, it is insufficient, a purely material continuity is not enough; as the Catholic Encyclopedia says, there must be in the hierarchy both the material and formal element of Apostolic succession. Hermann says, "Material succession consists in the fact that there have never been lacking persons who have continuously been substituted for the Apostles ; formal succession consists in the fact that these substituted persons truly enjoy authority derived from the Apostles and received from him who is able to communicate it. For someone to be made a successor of the Apostles and pastor of the Church, the power of order — which is always validly conferred by virtue of ordination — is not enough; the power of jurisdiction is also required, and this is conferred not by virtue of ordination but by virtue of a mission received from him to whom Christ has entrusted the supreme power over the universal Church."
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.