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Author Topic: For all sedevacantists and conclavists  (Read 7808 times)

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For all sedevacantists and conclavists
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2009, 09:39:09 PM »
Quote from: Raoul76
Caminus says:  "It is theologically impossible that the 'Church of the Sede Vacante' is the "true Church" because it has no authority; it possesses no jurisdiction, ergo, it can lay no claim to Apostolic Succession, a necessary mark of the true Church of Jesus Christ.  You are, sir, a modern day schismatic."

Surely you are aware that Bishop Thuc was given special permission by Pius XI to make bishops without always having papal consent ( I assume due to his work in Vietnam where access to the Pope was not always possible ).  

During the Vatican II crisis, Bishop Thuc used this permission to make more bishops, who in turn made more priests.  This is the apostolic succession.  The bishops and priests of SSPX, the Lefebvreists, also have apostolic succession -- at least those who weren't invalidly ordained or consecrated in the Novus Ordo rite and then just allowed into SSPX -- and many of them have left SSPX and become sedevacantists.  

If the time ever comes to elect a new Pope, without this Pope coming off like a home-brewed eccentric -- meaning sedes need more power and numbers before they can take that step -- the electors will come out of these two lines, the Thuc and Lefebvre lines.  Unless there really are hidden Siri cardinals out there -- but how would we know that isn't a hoax?

As far as jurisdiction goes, the Church of the Sede Vacante as you put it has supplied jurisdiction, just like the bishops and priests at the Council of Constance during the Great Western Schism when no one knew who the true Pope was.  Because some of these bishops and priests were serving men who would later be known as anti-Popes, not all of them could have had ACTUAL jurisdiction until it was granted to them afterwards by Pope Martin V, who they put on the Throne of Peter to end the confusion.


Ordinary Jurisidiction is a requirement of Apostolic Succession.  Even your example "Thuc" if it's accurate supposes delegated jurisdiction to one bishop.  It is IMPOSSIBLE that your "church" has ordinary jurisdiction, ergo, it lacks an essential mark of the true Church.  John Lane recognized this very grave problem.  Everyone who has a clue about catholic theology recognizes this problem.  They try to offer solutions (that at least one bishop out there in some diocese appointed by Pius XII still retains his ordinary jurisdiction), but to no avail.  No traditional bishop has ordinary jurisdiction.  Ergo, your picture story is skewed and needs reworked.  We don't succuмb to the exigencies of your imagination.  Don't worry, you're not the first person in history to get something wrong.  It is a most liberating experience to admit it and adjust accordingly.  

For all sedevacantists and conclavists
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2009, 10:34:43 PM »
Quote from: Raoul76
"However he comes up a winner with the idea that Ben 15 most likely is. Without even considering his doctrinal deficiencies and strange actions, the very election(???) of Della Chiesa is just about the most improbable thing I have ever heard of, moreso even than the abdication(?) of Celestine and the election(?) of the anti-pope Boniface."

Actually Boniface is not an anti-Pope because only the Church determines who is an anti-Pope ( not counting our time where the Church is in eclipse ).

I don't know what kind of sin it is to keep saying that an accepted Pope is an anti-Pope but it is a strange one.  Especially since Boniface VIII was behind the drafting of Unam Sanctam and was a very strong Pope.  Are you related to King Philip or something?    


Here are the two prev posts on Ben and Boniface

http://www.cathinfo.com/bb/index.php?a=topic&t=4589

http://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?a=topic&t=4268&f=4&min=75&num=15

Raoul is the one committing the strange sin of calling Popes anti-popes as he insists on perpetrating the myth that the French Popes of the GWS are such. The reasons for this have been explained numerous times and need no repititon here.

The one sentence of Unam Sanctam that is dogmatic was nothing new in 1303.  The idea that one must remain loyal to the Roman Pope had been proclaimed already for about 1200 yrs. If a Pope is in actuality an anti-- pope, then no allegience  is due as Caraffa is well aware.


For all sedevacantists and conclavists
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2009, 10:58:43 PM »
Quote from: Raoul76
That's right Caraffa.  Benedict XV is by no means an anti-Pope but Catholic Martyr is desperate to eliminate him because of the 1917 Code of Canon Law, compiled under Benny XV's watch, which says that catechumens must be given a Catholic burial.  As a neo-Feeneyite, he cannot accept reality and so he has to throw out Popes and Doctors left and right ( he says that Bellarmine is a heretic too ).  

Don't get drawn into this nonsense.  

Welcome by the way -- whatever you are!  Here is a rundown.

Catholic Martyr is the resident Feeneyite and sedevacantist.  He has made a Feeneyite convert of the young DeMaistre.  I am the converted pagan turned sedevacantist.  Dawn and gladius_veritatis and trent13 and Uriel I believe are also sedevacantists.  Parentsfortruth and Roscoe are sedevacantists in all but name, but they're afraid to say there's no Pope and so they go off into their imaginations and say that Siri was elected in 1958 ( or 1963 ) and that he has a successor out there even though they have no clue how this successor could have been elected or where he is ( so you see, they also are without a Pope. )  Prodinoscopus, Caminus and I believe elizabeth are SSPX, as is the board operator Matthew ( ChantCD ).



People like CM, DM or the Dimonds are hardly Feenyites.

I keep asking for someone to show me evidence that Fr Feeney was ex-communicated by or disobedient to Pius XII and it never shows up-- I guess this is not enough for Raoul.

I also keep asking for some proof that there even is such a thing as a sede vacantist. We have all heard of the Zelanti or the Politicos, Geulphs and Ghibbelines but where is this party mentioned before in Church History? After all there have been about 40 anti-popes and numerous schism.

For all sedevacantists and conclavists
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2009, 11:03:20 PM »
You cannot assume the history of Abp. Thuc.  His history was very complicated and controversial.  Even Fr. Cekada says that only some of his ordinations and consecrations are valid.

Take a moment and look at the "Thuc Line" full of 12-year-old bishops and hundreds of dubious priests.

Abp. Thuc went back and forth with Rome.  His history is a huge subject of debate and very difficult to learn about if one doesn't read Vietnamese.  It is a huge mystery to me so I have not recieved sacraments from the Thuc line.  But I am not qualified to judge whatsoever.

One thing that helps me (hopefully) not go mad worrying about stuff is a certain prayer against heresy and schism, and the fact that God made me and my family exactly for these times.  He made me so that I can work out my salvation in these times, during this crisis.

For all sedevacantists and conclavists
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2009, 11:14:45 PM »
After reading CG Clarke's Book, Loyola's and Cabots one is unfortunately left with the impression that Pius XII was not responding to Fr Feeney's request for help re: the heretics who were teaching salvation outside of the Church.

After reading Mr Potter's book it is apparent that this is not correct and the Pope did issue Humanum Generis, with it's emphasis on Extra......

So there are no grounds coming from any direction that point to discord between the Pope and Fr Feeney. I believe the Dimonds and CM both regard Pius XII as an anti-pope.
Ciao