Author Topic: Fixing the conciliar church? (Read 2683 times)

2Vermont · « **Reply #15 on:** October 31, 2013, 04:38:45 AM »

So here's my thought (and I say it because I want to remain hopeful that something can and will be done eventually):

If it took decades for the modernists to slowly change the Church from the inside, couldn't the opposite still happen? I think the VII Church is different than the other churches because there is still a remnant of the Church hidden within it (or I'd like to believe there is).

How this is going to happen I don't know, but is 50 years really too long to overcome?

Emitte Lucem Tuam · « **Reply #16 on:** October 31, 2013, 05:19:51 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

So here's my thought (and I say it because I want to remain hopeful that something can and will be done eventually):

If it took decades for the modernists to slowly change the Church from the inside, couldn't the opposite still happen? I think the VII Church is different than the other churches because there is still a remnant of the Church hidden within it (or I'd like to believe there is).

How this is going to happen I don't know, but is 50 years really too long to overcome?

It's not 50 years. It's been almost 100 years since the start of modernism - which gave us it's end result 50 years ago with Vatican II. Vatican II is the end result of heresy which had been on a slow boil since right after the pontificate of Pope St Pius X. Vatican II is not the beginning - it is the end result. The "spirit of VII" was alive and well and flourishing in the 1920's, 1930's, 1940's, etc. albeit behind the scenes. Intervention can only come from God now. Man's effort (other than prayer) is powerless to save the Novus Ordo sect.

Ambrose · « **Reply #17 on:** October 31, 2013, 05:21:22 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

So here's my thought (and I say it because I want to remain hopeful that something can and will be done eventually):

If it took decades for the modernists to slowly change the Church from the inside, couldn't the opposite still happen? I think the VII Church is different than the other churches because there is still a remnant of the Church hidden within it (or I'd like to believe there is).

How this is going to happen I don't know, but is 50 years really too long to overcome?

The modernists never changed the Church. They left the Church, but continued on pretending they were Catholics, seeking ever larger numbers to come into their sect.

On December, 7, 1965, their sect, formerly weak and disorganized now became organized and led by antipope Paul Vi. With a "pope" at the helm, Catholic resistance crumbled and the sect became universal. Entering into every diocese, parish, seminary, religious order and family throughout the world.

At no time though, did the Church.move an inch, they did not move the Church towards them, rather they corrupted Catholics and tricked them.

The only way of destroying this sect, is not to work from within it, rather it is to expose it, sever communion with it, and to help Catholics who still believe it to be the Church to flee from it.

Those that try to negotiate or to convert the beast, will only fail and are risking their own salvation in the process. The fathers of the Church were very clear in regards to heretics, the only correct action towards them is to cut off communion with them and avoid them like the plague.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #18 on:** October 31, 2013, 06:49:42 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: 2Vermont
So here's my thought (and I say it because I want to remain hopeful that something can and will be done eventually):

If it took decades for the modernists to slowly change the Church from the inside, couldn't the opposite still happen? I think the VII Church is different than the other churches because there is still a remnant of the Church hidden within it (or I'd like to believe there is).

How this is going to happen I don't know, but is 50 years really too long to overcome?

The modernists never changed the Church. They left the Church, but continued on pretending they were Catholics, seeking ever larger numbers to come into their sect.

On December, 7, 1965, their sect, formerly weak and disorganized now became organized and led by antipope Paul Vi. With a "pope" at the helm, Catholic resistance crumbled and the sect became universal. Entering into every diocese, parish, seminary, religious order and family throughout the world.

At no time though, did the Church.move an inch, they did not move the Church towards them, rather they corrupted Catholics and tricked them.

The only way of destroying this sect, is not to work from within it, rather it is to expose it, sever communion with it, and to help Catholics who still believe it to be the Church to flee from it.

Those that try to negotiate or to convert the beast, will only fail and are risking their own salvation in the process. The fathers of the Church were very clear in regards to heretics, the only correct action towards them is to cut off communion with them and avoid them like the plague.

You do admit it is a sect and a false sect. It is not the Catholic Church. We should have nothing to do with it.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #19 on:** October 31, 2013, 06:55:19 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

So here's my thought (and I say it because I want to remain hopeful that something can and will be done eventually):

If it took decades for the modernists to slowly change the Church from the inside, couldn't the opposite still happen? I think the VII Church is different than the other churches because there is still a remnant of the Church hidden within it (or I'd like to believe there is).

How this is going to happen I don't know, but is 50 years really too long to overcome?

You mean infiltrate them. Pretend we are conciliarist, get "ordained" and "consecrated" and made a "Cardinal" and then "elected" "Pope" and then make it Catholic again?

I see where you are coming from but to do it they way you suggest, IMO, that is what would have to be done.

I maintain that the imposters need to be removed and replaced with Catholics. I believe we need to elect a valid Pope and go from their. It would help if all traditionalists united behind the fact that we have not had a Pope since V2. Then we can move to the next step and get a Pope. We need our bishops to get together and elect one. Whether they are thought to be crazy should not be a concern. God left the Church in our hands in a sense much as he left our souls in our hands. We can do nothing without Him but we must do our part. Is our part to sit and wait for a miracle to happen or elect a head the proper way (John Lane's sight has a couple of articles on how to elect a Pope in an irregular situation). Just living a holy life and avoiding pettiness is a good start to be sure though.

Ambrose · « **Reply #20 on:** October 31, 2013, 06:07:56 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: 2Vermont
So here's my thought (and I say it because I want to remain hopeful that something can and will be done eventually):

If it took decades for the modernists to slowly change the Church from the inside, couldn't the opposite still happen? I think the VII Church is different than the other churches because there is still a remnant of the Church hidden within it (or I'd like to believe there is).

How this is going to happen I don't know, but is 50 years really too long to overcome?

The modernists never changed the Church. They left the Church, but continued on pretending they were Catholics, seeking ever larger numbers to come into their sect.

On December, 7, 1965, their sect, formerly weak and disorganized now became organized and led by antipope Paul Vi. With a "pope" at the helm, Catholic resistance crumbled and the sect became universal. Entering into every diocese, parish, seminary, religious order and family throughout the world.

At no time though, did the Church.move an inch, they did not move the Church towards them, rather they corrupted Catholics and tricked them.

The only way of destroying this sect, is not to work from within it, rather it is to expose it, sever communion with it, and to help Catholics who still believe it to be the Church to flee from it.

Those that try to negotiate or to convert the beast, will only fail and are risking their own salvation in the process. The fathers of the Church were very clear in regards to heretics, the only correct action towards them is to cut off communion with them and avoid them like the plague.

You do admit it is a sect and a false sect. It is not the Catholic Church. We should have nothing to do with it.

I have said this all along. The point of dispute is who is a member of this sect.

Mysterium Fidei · « **Reply #21 on:** October 31, 2013, 07:08:01 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: 2Vermont
So here's my thought (and I say it because I want to remain hopeful that something can and will be done eventually):

If it took decades for the modernists to slowly change the Church from the inside, couldn't the opposite still happen? I think the VII Church is different than the other churches because there is still a remnant of the Church hidden within it (or I'd like to believe there is).

How this is going to happen I don't know, but is 50 years really too long to overcome?

You mean infiltrate them. Pretend we are conciliarist, get "ordained" and "consecrated" and made a "Cardinal" and then "elected" "Pope" and then make it Catholic again?

I see where you are coming from but to do it they way you suggest, IMO, that is what would have to be done.

I maintain that the imposters need to be removed and replaced with Catholics. I believe we need to elect a valid Pope and go from their. It would help if all traditionalists united behind the fact that we have not had a Pope since V2. Then we can move to the next step and get a Pope. We need our bishops to get together and elect one. Whether they are thought to be crazy should not be a concern. God left the Church in our hands in a sense much as he left our souls in our hands. We can do nothing without Him but we must do our part. Is our part to sit and wait for a miracle to happen or elect a head the proper way (John Lane's sight has a couple of articles on how to elect a Pope in an irregular situation). Just living a holy life and avoiding pettiness is a good start to be sure though.

The problem is, is that you now have a whole generation of Catholics that have lost the Faith. This crisis is a crisis of Faith. Probably 80% or more of Novus Ordo “Catholics” are actually heretics or hold to heretical beliefs. Poll after poll has shown this.

If somehow a true Pope were elected and anathematized Vatican II and the Novus Ordo “Mass” and restored the traditional Mass, doctrine and discipline, I believe that he would be soundly rejected by most Novus Ordo “Catholics”.

The vast majority of Novus Ordo “Catholics” like their subjectivist, ecuмenical, dogma-less, “I'm OK, you're OK” religion and want nothing to do with the Catholic Faith.

Matto · « **Reply #22 on:** October 31, 2013, 07:17:51 PM »

Quote from: Mysterium Fidei

Probably 80% or more of Novus Ordo “Catholics” are actually heretics or hold to heretical beliefs. Poll after poll has shown this.

Do you think only 80% of Novus Ordo "Catholics" are heretics? I would guess the number is closer to 99%.

Mysterium Fidei · « **Reply #23 on:** October 31, 2013, 07:36:29 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: Mysterium Fidei
Probably 80% or more of Novus Ordo “Catholics” are actually heretics or hold to heretical beliefs. Poll after poll has shown this.

Do you think only 80% of Novus Ordo "Catholics" are heretics? I would guess the number is closer to 99%.

Well, you may be right. I was using 80% because of polling data from Pew Research and other pollsters seem to show about a 80% defection from Catholic dogma within the Novus Ordo.

I certainly think there is a remnant of conservative Novus Ordo Catholics with the intention of being Catholic that are trying to hold on and somehow reconcile the Catholic Faith with Vatican II and what comes out of the mouth of "Pope" Francis. I think this was much easier for them under Ratzinger/Benedict XVI.

However I believe most of the Novus Ordo adherents are either ignorant of what the Catholic Faith is; because the Novus Ordo is all they have ever known; or are acting in bad faith because they prefer the new religion to the Catholic Faith.

LoverOfTradition · « **Reply #24 on:** October 31, 2013, 08:27:35 PM »

This is a good time to look at the Secret of Our Lady of LaSalette.

This is what's happening:

"Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."

Since there is only a remnant left, the Church is in eclipse, as Our Lady said wouuld happen.

"The Church will be in eclipse, the world will be in dismay."

Could this be Cardinal Siri?

"The Holy Father will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end and receive his sacrifice."

"The mischievous would attempt his life several times to do harm and shorten his days but neither him nor his successor will see the triumph of the Church of God."

"The Vicar of my Son will suffer a great deal, because for a while the Church will yield to large persecution, a time of darkness and the Church will witness a frightful crisis."

Cardinal Manning:

"The apostasy of the city of Rome from the vicar of Christ and its destruction by Antichrist may be thoughts so new to many Catholics, that I think it well to recite the text of theologians of greatest repute. First Malvenda, who writes expressly on the subject, states as the opinion of Ribera, Gaspar Melus, Biegas, Suarrez, Bellarmine and Bosius that Rome shall apostatise from the faith, drive away the Vicar of Christ and return to its ancient paganism. ...Then the Church shall be scattered, driven into the wilderness, and shall be for a time, as it was in the beginning, invisible hidden in catacombs, in dens, in mountains, in lurking places; for a time it shall be swept, as it were from the face of the earth. (Hmm, said in lurking places. Could that be the SSPX? I can tell you personally, before our Chapel was built Mass was said in a dry cleaners!). Such is the universal testimony of the Fathers of the early Church."
-Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, The Present Crisis of the Holy See, 1861

Keep the Faith, my friends. Always keep the True Faith that was handed down to you, no matter what. Even if only a few stay faithful to Tradition, they are the true Church of Jesus Christ.

ThomisticPhilosopher · « **Reply #25 on:** October 31, 2013, 10:27:28 PM »

Quote from: soulguard

I know there was a similar thread posted long ago about this, but this was a notion of "dominvs saboath" who said he wanted to be a priest and had ridiculous notions IMO about tradition.

But what do people think about this notion.
Is it possible to change the church from the inside?

All of that fails completely because we must have a true love of self. No matter what greater good we are trying to do, we cannot put our soul in danger. This is why one cannot remain with modernist/heretical teachers and expect to be saved. The equivalent would be to live inside of a brothel for an extended period of time, and sleep in the same room with several naked women. I would even say that it is far safer to remain in the brothel then the other situation. For at the very least most people are aware that it is a place of bad repute and as such know it is evil. Modernism disguises itself as a reformer of the faith, a champion of truth, but it is a tool of the devil. Straight from the pit of hell, because they take advantage of the simple faith of most people to deceive them into their sophistries.

This is why the Church has always admonished her children to stay away from bad books/company, to be in the world, but not of the world.

The Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, so you cannot enter in schism and work for the Catholic Church in it. In order to do good you must continue to do the work of the Church as it has always been done. Just hand down what you have received.

Nadir · « **Reply #26 on:** October 31, 2013, 10:45:09 PM »

Quote from: soulguard

Surely the conciliar church cant disown its own history?

I've just started reading this thread so maybe somebody has already said it but I've not read it.

You are talking as if the conciliar church is the Catholic Church whose history commences with the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles.

The answer to your question is that conciliar church history starts around the mid 20th century. Pray that they do disown it. But it will be individuals who come back to Tradition.

2Vermont · « **Reply #27 on:** November 01, 2013, 05:01:22 AM »

Quote from: Mysterium Fidei

I certainly think there is a remnant of conservative Novus Ordo Catholics with the intention of being Catholic that are trying to hold on and somehow reconcile the Catholic Faith with Vatican II and what comes out of the mouth of "Pope" Francis. I think this was much easier for them under Ratzinger/Benedict XVI.

However I believe most of the Novus Ordo adherents are either ignorant of what the Catholic Faith is; because the Novus Ordo is all they have ever known; or are acting in bad faith because they prefer the new religion to the Catholic Faith.

I agree with this. I was in the first camp. I have to believe that there are a lot of others folks like myself in the NO Church that eventually will at least start to question WTH is going on (and that will happen a lot quicker the more Francis opens his mouth and inserts his foot). In time, it will become so troublesome to their consciences that they will HAVE to go back to traditional docuмents, etc. to try to make sense of it all.

I would also like to believe that just as there are lay folk like this there are also members of the hierarchy struggling with this right now. I wouldn't be surprised that Cardinals such as Cardinal Burke that are scratching their heads. This is why I am not so sure that change can't still happen from within. That may not mean that these folks remain in the NO church and change the NO church, but as former members who see the light, they are the ones who can bring about a change in general (I'm not sure that is making sense).

Stubborn · « **Reply #28 on:** November 01, 2013, 05:16:44 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: soulguard
I know there was a similar thread posted long ago about this, but this was a notion of "dominvs saboath" who said he wanted to be a priest and had ridiculous notions IMO about tradition.

But what do people think about this notion.
Is it possible to change the church from the inside?

We would have to take over the formerly Catholic structures. And re-consecrate everything. Just to start. If they authentically convert they can join us as laypeople but they probably should take a vow of silence and do penance for the rest of their lives refraining from all speaking and writing apart from that which is necessary, say in Confession for instance.

Didn't I read where you said that you used to be NO?

soulguard · « **Reply #29 on:** November 01, 2013, 11:27:50 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: soulguard
I know there was a similar thread posted long ago about this, but this was a notion of "dominvs saboath" who said he wanted to be a priest and had ridiculous notions IMO about tradition.

But what do people think about this notion.
Is it possible to change the church from the inside?

We would have to take over the formerly Catholic structures. And re-consecrate everything. Just to start. If they authentically convert they can join us as laypeople but they probably should take a vow of silence and do penance for the rest of their lives refraining from all speaking and writing apart from that which is necessary, say in Confession for instance.

Didn't I read where you said that you used to be NO?

Im sure 99.9% of traditional Catholics began with the NO, and I was one of them.

Btw on another topic:
I watched a video with +Fellay where he speaks of the lack of coordination in the Vatican in their dealings with the SSPX. He says some bishops revolt against Benedict when his associates told them that he would declare the SSPX a Catholic group. I know one Bishop of the conciliar church who told me on this topic that "they are a very respectable order in the church". He seems a good man. His replacement is a raging liberal.