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Author Topic: First Vatican council  (Read 1017 times)

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Offline 800 Cruiser

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First Vatican council
« on: September 28, 2018, 12:52:12 AM »
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  • I really don’t know. For the moment I am relying on “catechism explained” and the new Roman missal.
    I do have some thoughts in my head that tie into a multitude of other things, but would like to take a measure of what you guys think and have to say about the topic.
    Thank you.


    Offline roscoe

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    Re: First Vatican council
    « Reply #1 on: September 28, 2018, 01:10:44 AM »
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  • Infallible Constitution of Roman Catholic Church

    www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V1.HTM#4 & #6

    This is not an endorsement of ewtn... :cheers:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: First Vatican council
    « Reply #2 on: September 28, 2018, 01:45:26 AM »
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  • .
    The First Vatican Council came at a time when the Freemasons were pushing really hard to take over the Church.
    .
    There was warlike interruptions, many bishops abandoned the Council to go home.
    .
    There were two important products -- the affirmation of the dogmatic definition of the Immaculate Conception;
    and the dogmatic definition of Papal Infallibility. 
    .
    The latter of which was the "last straw" for the so-called Old Catholics who walked out at that point, becoming schismatics.
    .
    In the end, Vat.I was suspended or adjourned but it was not ended.
    .
    It is possible for some future Council to re-convene Vat.I; as it were, to pick up where it left off.
    .
    Some thought that is what Vat.II was all about, and some at the time tried to say it was so.
    But there is nothing in the docuмents of Vat.II that mentions re-convening Vat.I or continuing the work thereof.
    Effectively, Vat.I could be re-opened, without mention of Vat.II, and then proceed as though Vat.II had not happened.
    Perhaps some official mention would have to abrogate Vat.II, but it could be a very terse mention. 
    .
    This might be the most effective way of wiping out the bad scene that Vat.II evoked and to make way for real healing in the Church.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: First Vatican council
    « Reply #3 on: September 28, 2018, 11:50:55 AM »
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  • According to Fr. Kramer without Vatican I and Pastor Aeternus there is no whey that PF could be declared a non-pope since in Pastor Aeternus states that:



    Quote
    "It was for this reason that the bishops of the whole world, sometimes individually, sometimes gathered in synods, according to the long established custom of the Churches and the pattern of ancient usage referred to this Apostolic See those dangers especially which arose in matters concerning the faith. This was to ensure that any damage suffered by the faith should be repaired in that place above all where the faith can know no failing."

    "for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: "I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."

    This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this See so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine.



    I don't know how any traditionalist can dance around this anymore. Let this sink in:  "unblemished by any error" Now either words don't mean anything when the Church speaks from a Pontifically approved Council or PF is not the pope. It has come down to black and white.

    Sorry about the font size.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: First Vatican council
    « Reply #4 on: September 28, 2018, 11:59:06 AM »
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  • According to Fr. Kramer without Vatican I and Pastor Aeternus there is no whey that PF could be declared a non-pope since in Pastor Aeternus states that:

    Well, the only way would be for a true Pope to declare that these conciliar conspirators were never Popes to begin with, but impostors. That means St. Peter was never there. Because if St. Peter was there, and the Church did err, it means the Church failed, which is impossible according to the promises of Our Lord.

    The Church is where St. Peter is.

    A political infiltration in the Vatican is possible. St. Peter's Faith failing is impossible. 
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: First Vatican council
    « Reply #5 on: September 28, 2018, 12:41:52 PM »
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  • I don't know how any traditionalist can dance around this anymore. Let this sink in:  "unblemished by any error" Now either words don't mean anything when the Church speaks from a Pontifically approved Council or PF is not the pope. It has come down to black and white.
    Very simply, like Fr. Kramer, it seems that most sedes take the whole thing entirely out of context, which is of course necessary to do in order to maintain the various different flavors of sedesim.

    1) Taken in context of the section; "On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman pontiff", we find this section you quoted is where they are teaching strictly about when the pope speaks ex cathedra - if however, it is as you allude to, then you must admit that you actually believe the pope is himself a god, personally always infallible, which is the only way he could hope to never make "any error" - but that is not at all what they are saying.  

    Quote
    "For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter, not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles...

    ...Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith, to the glory of God our saviour, for the exaltation of the catholic religion and for the salvation of the christian people, with the approval of the sacred council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks Ex Cathedra, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals."

    2) The decree states infallibly that the Holy Ghost's assistance is not employed when it comes to new doctrines, what it does *not* state, is that it is impossible for the pope to preach new doctrines, that is, except when he actually solemnly "defines a doctrine..." etc.,  and it also does *not* state that the pope vacates his office if or when he does preach new doctrines.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: First Vatican council
    « Reply #6 on: September 28, 2018, 03:20:05 PM »
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  • According to Fr. Kramer without Vatican I and Pastor Aeternus there is no whey that PF could be declared a non-pope since in Pastor Aeternus states that:





    I don't know how any traditionalist can dance around this anymore. Let this sink in:  "unblemished by any error" Now either words don't mean anything when the Church speaks from a Pontifically approved Council or PF is not the pope. It has come down to black and white.

    Sorry about the font size.
    I'm confused.  If you're using this quote, then how couldn't he be declared a non-pope. The man is in error on a daily basis.  Unless I am just not getting your point.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: First Vatican council
    « Reply #7 on: October 01, 2018, 06:32:18 PM »
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  • The Church is where St. Peter is.

    A political infiltration in the Vatican is possible. St. Peter's Faith failing is impossible.

    So the successor to St. Peter can teach 1.2 billion Catholics can divorce, get remarried, and then receive communion. Annnnd, the second marriage God himself will approve of.

    Quote
    It can also recognize with sincerity and honesty what for now is the most generous response which can be given to God, and come to see with a certain moral security that it is what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits, while yet not fully the objective ideal.

    Do you wish to defend that statement?

    In the past, such rubbish would have led its proponent to die at the stake. Now a days we have people supporting the notion that Francis is pope while people are out there acting right now on Amoris Laetitia through its implementation via the October 2016 edition of Acta Apostolicae Sedis. Flat out adulterers' are justified in putting their filthy little piggy mouths around the absolute pure God by a "successor" of St. Peter. Simply incredible. If anyone were to even suggest back in 1958 such a thing could happen they would have been excommunicated and thrown out of the Church.

    A heretic cannot be a Pope. Especially one who teaches people to commit adultery.

    When the time comes I am going to die a happy man when that fire from the sky comes a knocking.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: First Vatican council
    « Reply #8 on: October 01, 2018, 06:50:55 PM »
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  • So the successor to St. Peter can teach 1.2 billion Catholics can divorce, get remarried, and then receive communion. Annnnd, the second marriage God himself will approve of.

    Do you wish to defend that statement?

    In the past, such rubbish would have led its proponent to die at the stake. Now a days we have people supporting the notion that Francis is pope while people are out there acting right now on Amoris Laetitia through its implementation via the October 2016 edition of Acta Apostolicae Sedis. Flat out adulterers' are justified in putting their filthy little piggy mouths around the absolute pure God by a "successor" of St. Peter. Simply incredible. If anyone were to even suggest back in 1958 such a thing could happen they would have been excommunicated and thrown out of the Church.

    A heretic cannot be a Pope. Especially one who teaches people to commit adultery.

    When the time comes I am going to die a happy man when that fire from the sky comes a knocking.
    Wait, you're a sedevacantist now?  Or do you believe Benny is pope?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: First Vatican council
    « Reply #9 on: October 01, 2018, 11:42:50 PM »
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  • So the successor to St. Peter can teach 1.2 billion Catholics can divorce, get remarried, and then receive communion. Annnnd, the second marriage God himself will approve of.

    Do you wish to defend that statement?

    In the past, such rubbish would have led its proponent to die at the stake. Now a days we have people supporting the notion that Francis is pope while people are out there acting right now on Amoris Laetitia through its implementation via the October 2016 edition of Acta Apostolicae Sedis. Flat out adulterers' are justified in putting their filthy little piggy mouths around the absolute pure God by a "successor" of St. Peter. Simply incredible. If anyone were to even suggest back in 1958 such a thing could happen they would have been excommunicated and thrown out of the Church.

    A heretic cannot be a Pope. Especially one who teaches people to commit adultery.

    When the time comes I am going to die a happy man when that fire from the sky comes a knocking.

    I agree.

    That's why I'm of the current opinion that Bergoglio is not Pope. He is not the legitimate successor of St. Peter, at least not in a true sense.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Markus

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    Re: First Vatican council
    « Reply #10 on: October 01, 2018, 11:45:43 PM »
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  • So if Vatican II is removed from the list of councils, there could be a Second Vatican Council in the future.



    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: First Vatican council
    « Reply #11 on: October 02, 2018, 11:01:17 AM »
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  • Wait, you're a sedevacantist now?  Or do you believe Benny is pope?

    God how I hate that name of sedevacantist. But yes there is no pope or Benedict is still the pope.

    After reading Father Kramer's introduction to his new book and his forthright defense of the complete orthodoxy of Pastor Aeternus (which I started to doubt about its authenticity). Heck it was getting so bad that I thought the church could teach error. I have finally been convinced that Bergoglio is not the pope. It is black or white no more greys.

    It's my coming out. It has been a real roller coaster ride for me for the last 5 years. Brutal. Especially since I am an Engineer who wants everything logical.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: First Vatican council
    « Reply #12 on: October 02, 2018, 11:07:10 AM »
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  • God how I hate that name of sedevacantist. But yes there is no pope or Benedict is still the pope.

    After reading Father Kramer's introduction to his new book and his forthright defense of the complete orthodoxy of Pastor Aeternus (which I started to doubt about its authenticity AND the Church's ability to teach truth. Hell it was getting so bad that I thought the church could teach error.) I have finally been convinced that Bergoglio is not the pope. It is black or white no more greys.

    It's my coming out.
    :facepalm:
    And *that's* why most Catholics should avoid the subject of sedeism completely.,
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: First Vatican council
    « Reply #13 on: October 02, 2018, 11:10:38 AM »
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  • :facepalm:
    And *that's* why most Catholics should avoid the subject of sedeism completely.,

    Why? Do you enjoy seeing people blindly going to hell due to Amoris Laetitia?

    Quote
    I remember very well that Bergoglio promised the Holy Communion to divorced and "remarried" to his niece or some other family member living with a man other than her husband - in the very beginning of his iron fist rule. He also stated that most Catholic marriages are invalid. In his opinion some not married couples have a real marriage, while many married in Church do not. People don't know what they are promising - he said. Therefore he denies any role for the Holy Spirit, only an ability or inability of couples to be content enough to want to be together (as long as love lasts). If they don't, it means that there was no marriage. Marrage exists only, when people want to stay together.


    And what the heck do you do when they declare that the Eucharist is symbolic? Stick your head into a sand pile?

    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: First Vatican council
    « Reply #14 on: October 02, 2018, 11:29:10 AM »
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  • Baltimore Catechism:

    Q. 532. Is the Pope infallible in everything he says and does?

    A. The Pope is not infallible in everything he says and does, because the Holy Ghost was not promised to make him infallible in everything, but only in matters of faith and morals for the whole Church.

    Q. 544. What is the difference between the infallibility and indefectibility of the Church?
     

    A. When we say the Church is infallible we mean that it can never teach error while it lasts; but when we say the Church is indefectible, we mean that it will last forever and be infallible forever; that it will always remain as Our Lord founded it and never change the doctrines He taught.


    Quote
    The debate will now begin as the Catholics with their heads in the sand and deny reality try to spin that it is only magisterial if he commands it be taught. Look, a letter from a pope, private correspondence leaked to the media and published months back on the Vatican's own website is now published in the Official Acts of the Apostolic Seat. That is magisterial. Did Bergoglio not say that he speaks every day and everything he says is "magisterial?"

    This is the greatest crisis the Church has EVER gone through bar none.