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Offline Alexandria

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« on: June 09, 2010, 02:29:56 PM »
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  • A friend of mine recently told me that it is a doctrine of the Church that the pope can not lose the faith.  When I inquired as to where she read this, she said that it was defined at the First Vatican Council.

    My research into this revelation has not turned up much.

    I know that my esteemed brethren here at CathInfo must know the answer.  Plus, it will give you something to think about other than BOD/BOB.  


    Offline Alexandria

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    « Reply #1 on: June 09, 2010, 03:27:05 PM »
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  • This may be what she was referring to from Vatican One:


    "6. For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.

    Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren [60].

    7. This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this See so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole Church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell."





    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #2 on: June 09, 2010, 04:08:31 PM »
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  • This is one of the most frustrating misunderstandings of a time full of frustrating misunderstandings.

    Pastor Aeternus, Dogmatic Constitution of Vatican Council I

    Quote
    5. Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema.


    This is not a prophecy.  Church councils do not deal in prophecy.  It's an admonition.  

    You have to understand a little bit about the context of Vatican I.  The 19th century may look stuffy and rigid to us today, from the perspective of our even more morally relaxed era, but in reality it was a revolutionary century, marked in Europe by the fall of the French monarchy and the rise of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.  The tenor of the times was democratic and progressive.  Kings were seen as a thing of the past, their days numbered.  

    As in politics, so in the Church, a clamor began to arise that the Church should adapt to the times, be more democratic, more progressive.  The papacy began to be seen by some as outmoded, a relic of more autocratic and authoritarian times.  The Pope, after all, is a kingly figure -- a spiritual king.  He is not a president or primus inter pares.  He is a stand-in for Christ Himself, the King of Kings... This is the background of Vatican Council I which was convoked to shore up the authority of the Pope once and for all.  

    That is why papal infallibility was decreed in the first place -- it was a defense mechanism, a counter-revolutionary move.  With the Church losing its secular power by the day, its only recourse was to announce its spiritual power, which no government can take away.  Remember that at this time the Papal States, which is the kingdom of the papacy, was reduced to the Vatican itself.  Pius IX was a prisoner in the Vatican, and so were all the Popes until Pius XI, who began that routine of speaking to crowds in St. Peter's.  ( I wonder if people realize today that Popes did not always travel around the world shaking hands and posing like they were part of some circus, but that this began with Pius XII. )

    You have to read Pastor Aeternus with all this in mind, and in context.  There is no excuse not to, because this context is carefully given in the introduction of PA itself.

    Quote
    "6. And since the gates of hell trying, if they can, to overthrow the Church, make their assault with a hatred that increases day by day against its divinely laid foundation, we judge it necessary, with the approbation of the Sacred Council, and for the protection, defense and growth of the Catholic flock, to propound the doctrine concerning the 1. institution, 2. permanence and 3. nature of the sacred and apostolic primacy, upon which the strength and coherence of the whole Church depends.

    7. This doctrine is to be believed and held by all the faithful in accordance with the ancient and unchanging faith of the whole Church.  

    8. Furthermore, we shall proscribe and condemn the contrary errors which are so harmful to the Lord's flock.


    Translation:  Lots of people are saying the Church should change and get with the times, they are going so far as to attack the institution of the papacy, and we are going to stop this right now.  Pastor Aeternus is all about reaffirming the power of the office of Pope.  Now back to the original passage:

    Quote
    5. Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema.


    What this really means can now be easily seen in context.  Pastor Aeternus was directed against those who were democratic and progressive, like those who would later become known as Old Catholics, and who were starting to murmur against the papacy.  Wouldn't it be better if the Church were democratic?  Wouldn't it be better off being run by a college of bishops?  Isn't the idea of a Pope with divine right something that should be left in the dustbin of history?  These are some of the murmurs that were going around in that Americanist and revolutionary climate.

    So Pastor Aeternus is saying that if anyone thinks that the papacy should be abolished, that there should be any other means of government of the universal Church, that they are anathema.  The papacy was instituted by Christ Himself and therefore should have perpetual successors -- I emphasize "should" because this does not mean "will."  It is a mental attitude:  Catholics must accept that the Church should always be led by a Pope, rather than by a president, or a parliament, or a college.

    This has nothing to do with prophecy, it is not saying that a false Pope could never be elected.  That is not something that is addressed in this docuмent at all.  People just take it out of context and apply it to their own prejudices.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #3 on: June 09, 2010, 04:14:20 PM »
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  • P.S. A Pope only has "never-failing faith" within the limits of his infallibility.  This does not refer to his personal faith, although some have argued that, such as Mike Ryan, the former contributor to Pascendi's forum.  

    But this has nothing to do with Benedict.  He never fell from office because he never had it.  He was a heretic before and after taking office, disqualifying him according to cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Alexandria

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    « Reply #4 on: June 09, 2010, 04:20:07 PM »
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  • Thank you, my esteemed brother Raoul, for answering me.  

    You bring up cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio.  I was given to understand by this person that this was something written in a fit of pique by the then reigning pope and, therefore, has no bearing.  

    I'm only trying to get to the bottom of things.


    Offline Emerentiana

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    « Reply #5 on: June 09, 2010, 05:55:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alexandria
    A friend of mine recently told me that it is a doctrine of the Church that the pope can not lose the faith.  When I inquired as to where she read this, she said that it was defined at the First Vatican Council.

    My research into this revelation has not turned up much.

    I know that my esteemed brethren here at CathInfo must know the answer.  Plus, it will give you something to think about other than BOD/BOB.  


    The Key word here is POPE .  Sedevacantists believe that the last popes from Paul the VI  on, were not validly elected Popes.  The book Judaism and the Vatican (Poncins)  tells about the election of the pope after John X111..  The puff of white smoke went up, and then a puff of black smoke followed.  The author tells about  the papal election being interfered with.  As we know,  Paul VI changed the mass.  The magisterium all went into heresy and could not elect a valid pope after Paul VI.  Maybe others can fill in the blanks here.

    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #6 on: June 09, 2010, 05:59:52 PM »
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    The magisterium all went into heresy and could not elect a valid pope after Paul VI.


    That's impossible.

    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #7 on: June 09, 2010, 06:02:10 PM »
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  • Thank U Emerentiana for bringing this up as I have not had my copy of Poncins out for some time and had forgotten that he is another source on the first white smoke of 1958.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #8 on: June 09, 2010, 06:20:09 PM »
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  • There is one (minority) opinion that a pope could never become a heretic, but it's not rooted in Vatican I.  Vatican I was just speaking about the Papacy as papacy.  In fact, John Paul II speaking as Karol Wojtyla (even during his reign) would not be immune from error.  He'd have to be speaking ex cathedra.

    And a heretic pope would have fallen from the chair permanently.

    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #9 on: June 09, 2010, 06:42:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    Thank U Emerentiana for bringing this up as I have not had my copy of Poncins out for some time and had forgotten that he is another source on the first white smoke of 1958.


    What page # is the info found?
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Alexandria

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    « Reply #10 on: June 09, 2010, 06:46:00 PM »
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  • Then it is not a doctrine of the faith that a pope CANNOT lose his faith?

    What about the story behind cuм Ex Apostolatus?  She said that it is a disciplinary act and not dogmatic.


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #11 on: June 09, 2010, 07:45:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Emerentiana
    Quote from: Alexandria
    A friend of mine recently told me that it is a doctrine of the Church that the pope can not lose the faith.  When I inquired as to where she read this, she said that it was defined at the First Vatican Council.

    My research into this revelation has not turned up much.

    I know that my esteemed brethren here at CathInfo must know the answer.  Plus, it will give you something to think about other than BOD/BOB.  


    The Key word here is POPE .  Sedevacantists believe that the last popes from Paul the VI  on, were not validly elected Popes.  The book Judaism and the Vatican (Poncins)  tells about the election of the pope after John X111..  The puff of white smoke went up, and then a puff of black smoke followed.  The author tells about  the papal election being interfered with.  As we know,  Paul VI changed the mass.  The magisterium all went into heresy and could not elect a valid pope after Paul VI.  Maybe others can fill in the blanks here.


    The reign of Paul VI in the Vatican is a rather mysterious one. There are alot of rumors going on about Paul VI. Some rumors say he was forced to do what he did and was "truely sorry" for it, some say there were two Paul VIs, some say he was a freemason, some even say he was the anti-Christ. The last one I mentioned cannot be true since the anti-Christ isn't supposed to come until after the three days of darkness. As for the other rumors, I can't say which one is true (if any are true), but it is strange.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #12 on: June 09, 2010, 07:55:44 PM »
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  • I believe the anti-christ is already here and will reveal himself Before the 3 days of darkness.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #13 on: June 09, 2010, 10:13:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alexandria
    A friend of mine recently told me that it is a doctrine of the Church that the pope can not lose the faith.  When I inquired as to where she read this, she said that it was defined at the First Vatican Council.

    My research into this revelation has not turned up much.

    I know that my esteemed brethren here at CathInfo must know the answer.  Plus, it will give you something to think about other than BOD/BOB.  


    It is a pious opinion, and was not the common opinion. This is explained in the relatio of Bishop Gasser, the relator of the faith at Vatican I. Bellarmine held this opinion, that a pope cannot disappear into personal heresy, but said it was NOT certain.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #14 on: June 10, 2010, 01:36:33 PM »
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  • I agree with St Robert
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'