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Author Topic: First time Eastern Liturgy  (Read 3216 times)

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Offline Peter

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Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2018, 05:49:02 PM »
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  • Maybe it’s it’s Byzcath.com; not sure. But the Society of St. Josaphat have been using the Liturgy that the Ukrainian Catholic Church has been using for centuries. They call such things as devotion to the Sacred Heart, Stations of the Cross, Holy Rosary, the theology of  Thomism, kneeling, using a dead liturgical language i.e. Church Slavonic,  as Latinisms.

    Note that many of these changes (a so-called return to pre-synod of Zamosc) came under the conciliar popes and the same hierarchs they appointed. The Society of St. Josaphat is continuing the pre-VII Tradition which was extended into Ukraine into the 1990s because of the Iron Curtain. If the members of the forum in question  are saying that the Society had changed the Liturgy from what they received then they are simply lying.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #16 on: March 22, 2018, 06:17:09 PM »
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  • .
    Something to look out for at Orthodox churches is their longstanding opposition to miracles recognized by the Roman Church.
    I spoke to some Coptics (Egypt) who assured me that NO ONE can EVER receive the marks of the crucifixion of Jesus on his body.
    I attempted to describe the stigmata of Padre Pio and they appeared to be entirely unfamiliar with the word, "stigmata."
    I described some of his miracles and they stood there shaking their heads in disbelief.
    But let them describe miracles in their own tradition, and they fully expect us to believe them.
    When I showed no incredulity to their own retelling of miracles, it had no effect on their non-acceptance of my testimony.
    I had no problem accepting their stories but they stubbornly refused to accept any of mine.
    They were hard-set against recognizing any miracles outside of the Coptic tradition.
    Seems to be a ONE-WAY STREET.
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #17 on: March 22, 2018, 09:28:02 PM »
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  • I believe that the Ukrainian Catholics were spared the ravages of V2 by God ... because this mercy was purchased through the deaths of the millions of Catholic martyrs they had under Stalin.

    And the Jєω, Lazar Kaganovich.


    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #18 on: March 22, 2018, 10:08:16 PM »
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  • They call such things as devotion to the Sacred Heart, Stations of the Cross, Holy Rosary, the theology of  Thomism, kneeling, using a dead liturgical language i.e. Church Slavonic,  as Latinisms.

    I immediately decided not to ever attend the Syro-Malabar rite after visiting one of their websites and seeing images of Mother Theresa (I think the mission chose her as their patron).

    If I had visited the UGCC site and seen pictures of the Divine Mercy devotion, I would never have visited their mission. In fact, when I confirmed they had valid orders and then saw they openly criticize Bergoglio, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs and liberals I believed they would be truly orthodox Catholics.

    Could you imagine walking into a Divine Liturgy and seeing Divine Mercy images instead of icons? I would run away fast.

    What is the Society of St. Josephat's official website (and apparently magazine) doing promoting the Divine Mercy devotions? They apparently think it's some sort of "Latinism" that will make them be Traditional Catholics?  :facepalm: Fail.

    Case by case basis, folks.
     
    https://www.saintjosaphat.org/hkt/2016/5/
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #19 on: March 22, 2018, 10:15:50 PM »
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  • Apparently, the Society of St. Josephat is real big into the Divine Mercy devotion and JP2's Faustina and feasts and all that.

    From what I've seen (which is very superficial and only scratching the surface), I would pick the UGCC over them. The Liturgy in Old Church Slavonic would be great, unless they had Divine Mercy posters floating around...not knowing what to think.

    https://www.saintjosaphat.org/hkt/2016/5/article/bozhe-myloserdya/
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #20 on: March 22, 2018, 10:27:31 PM »
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  • And the SSJ is in favor of that because they don't want to admit it, but the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Divine Liturgy and the Russian Orthodox Divine Liturgy are the exact same, just added references to the Pope.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline Peter

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #21 on: March 22, 2018, 10:47:38 PM »
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  • Hi Centroamerica

    I agree, that is certainly a problem. I knew about this and I wondered why they would promote this when their benefactors, the  SSPX, were strongly against this false devotion (I’m not sure now?). It’s unfortunately a “devotion” among most Ukrainian Catholics in western Ukraine (be they Society of St. Josaphat or not). But that still doesn’t take away from the fact that “most” in the Ukrainian hierarchy have embraced the errors of Vatican II. 
    I agree it’s a case by case basis for choosing where to attend Holy Mass/Divine Liturgy . But from what I’ve seen in Eastern Europe, they (Society of St. Josaphat) are certainly the safest course. The danger of recognizing such men as JPII or Francis as one’s proximate rule of Faith is wreaking havoc in the Eastern Rites and I think the only reason that they have left the Divine Liturgy relatively unchanged (unlike the Novus Ordo) is an eventual schism to “Orthodoxy”. Many Ukrainian theologians are already discussing a “dual form” of Communion between Rome and Constantinople and Met. Shevchuk has at least hinted that this is the direction that the UGCC is headed. Many others have explicitly endorsed this above model. 

    There was an article on Rorate Caeli a few years back (click here) but I can give you more recent references if you like. 

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #22 on: March 23, 2018, 04:59:15 AM »
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  • The society of st j are the n violation of at least 4 canons of the Ukrainian/Ruthenian treaty of Brest.

    1-  article 2 liturgy is to be in our own language (slavonic is mentioned later, slavonic is the vernacular for Ruthenian people, Ukrainian is the vernacular for Ukrainians) Eastern liturgy is normally in the vernacular.

    2-  article 7 specifically mentions no Corpus Christi festival other articles mention no filioque, etc. No Romanism basically

    3-  articles 15 no leaving our jurisdiction to join Rome, #30 if we suspend a priest you can not accept him.
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #23 on: March 23, 2018, 01:44:06 PM »
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  • And the SSJ is in favor of that because they don't want to admit it, but the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Divine Liturgy and the Russian Orthodox Divine Liturgy are the exact same, just added references to the Pope.
    I forgot to add to this - it should be the "Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Divine Liturgy as celebrated today"
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #24 on: March 23, 2018, 07:13:58 PM »
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  • The nearby Coptic Catholic priest gave me a call today. They are having a two and a half hour Palm Sunday Mass in the Coptic Rite this Sunday. Thinking seriously about changing travel plans for Mass so I can go. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #25 on: March 23, 2018, 08:51:19 PM »
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  • Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #26 on: March 24, 2018, 01:59:36 PM »
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  • So, further investigation has proven that "Peter" is definitely right and posts in good faith. The UGCC has definitely been rocked by the Robber Council. Seems they are definitely affected by false ecuмenism, despite holding deep-seated grudges against the Russian Orthodox. Surprisingly, they also have a so-called charismatic movement, with all its craziness and has apparently been officially promoted by the UGCC the major archbishop of Kyiv and leader of the UGCC, + Shevchuk.

    Despite this, the UGCC Divine Liturgies are valid and licit where there is a valid priest and are completely Catholic. Modernist heretics are everywhere, even in Traditionalist groups, so why would anyone think they would be any exception.

    I post this video with a disclaimer that there are erroneous and schismatic statements regarding the Holy Catholic Church made by Orthodox. Nevertheless, the video shows the state of the UGCC in Ukraine and how much scandal the V2 has given the Church. It could also be pointed out that it is a clearer sign of the Conciliar Church and the Catholic Church overlapping and having elements of both as is the official position of the Dominicans of Avrillé. One could not say that the UGCC is not a Catholic Church, although it is occupied by a modernist leadership.

    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...