Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Centroamerica on March 18, 2018, 08:33:54 PM
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So, I went to my first non-Tridentine Liturgy. It was actually held in an historical chapel attached to the modern church so it had that ancient feel already- wooden floors in a small chapel with brown brick walls built right after the end of the US cινιℓ ωαr. Huge surprise that the UGCC was allowed to use it. They have a mission here once a month. The Liturgy was standing and in English (first vernacular Liturgy ever attended). There were icons brought in to give it that Eastern feel and the priest offered the Liturgy with his back to the people. The words were totally Catholic praying for the end of heresy and at least 4 distinct times to the Theotokos Our Blessed Mother, also mentioning how the Liturgy was both the Last Supper and the Sacrifice of Calvary. No doubt could exist that the faithful believed in the Real Presence and that a true consecration took place. The sermon was totally orthodox dealing with martyrdom and persecutions of Christians and living a true Christian life at odds with the world-if the world doesn't hate you, you must not be living or preaching the Gospel (think Bergoglio?). Nothing but pure Catholicism. I'll be going back whenever possible.
Holy Communion was taken standing, as I learned is customary in the East. The Body was mixed with the Blood and was slightly warm. They were put into the receiver's mouth with a spoon while a cloth was held under by the servers. It was like attending a standing Tridentine Mass in the vernacular but with all these other elements. For example, the priest walked around and through the chapel once holding the Word of God (either Sacred Scripture, the Gospels or Divine Liturgy) and again when he was presenting the gifts (wine and bread to be consecrated). There is a noticeable version of the Sursum Corda which is basically identical. The Our Father was at the same point of the Liturgy but instead of a confiteor the cantor led a different prayer that could be thought of as the Eastern version-though very different-, I'd like to find the text of that prayer. It was the only part of the Liturgy that was not chanted. We probably crossed ourselves no less than 40 times and from left to right as is customary and many times Lord Have Mercy and the responses Peace be with you- and with your spirit. After the Liturgy the faithful could kiss the cross that the priest held during the sermon and after the Liturgy, those who didn't receive Holy Communion could take a piece of blessed bread.
I've found at least two more Catholic Eastern rites in the area. There is the Syro-malabar (an ancient rite from India). I'm a bit cautious to attend this Liturgy. I suspect it could have been tampered with by Modernists. I would have to investigate further before attending.
But there is also a large Coptic community in my area. Apparently, most of them are Ortho-schismatics and have their own bishop. But there is also a Catholic Coptic community which now has a resident priest. From what I was able to find out about the Catholic Coptics, they are extremely Traditional and a lot of emphasis is given to the Real Presence in the Eucharist. I haven't decided exactly when, but I am definitely planning to attend the Coptic Catholic Liturgy.
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I believe, O Lord, and confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own most pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood. Therefore, I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and deed, committed in knowledge or in ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen.
Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of Thy Mystery to Thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give Thee a kiss; but like the thief will I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord, in Thy Kingdom.
May the communion of Thy Holy Mysteries be neither to my judgement, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body.
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The Malabar use an electronic keyboard seriously bad electronic music look up a video when you get a chance
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The Malabar use an electronic keyboard seriously bad electronic music look up a video when you get a chance
What about the Coptic Liturgy?
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So, I went to my first non-Tridentine Liturgy. It was actually held in an historical chapel attached to the modern church so it had that ancient feel already- wooden floors in a small chapel with brown brick walls built right after the end of the US cινιℓ ωαr. Huge surprise that the UGCC was allowed to use it. They have a mission here once a month. The Liturgy was standing and in English (first vernacular Liturgy ever attended). There were icons brought in to give it that Eastern feel and the priest offered the Liturgy with his back to the people. The words were totally Catholic praying for the end of heresy and at least 4 distinct times to the Theotokos Our Blessed Mother, also mentioning how the Liturgy was both the Last Supper and the Sacrifice of Calvary. No doubt could exist that the faithful believed in the Real Presence and that a true consecration took place. The sermon was totally orthodox dealing with martyrdom and persecutions of Christians and living a true Christian life at odds with the world-if the world doesn't hate you, you must not be living or preaching the Gospel (think Bergoglio?). Nothing but pure Catholicism. I'll be going back whenever possible.
Yes, that lines up with my experience exactly. There can be no question that they have the Catholic faith. Are some of their priests a bit liberal? Sure. But probably no different than what you would find in Roman Rite parishes in the 1940s and 1950s.
I believe that the Ukrainian Catholics were spared the ravages of V2 by God ... because this mercy was purchased through the deaths of the millions of Catholic martyrs they had under Stalin.
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The Malabar use an electronic keyboard seriously bad electronic music look up a video when you get a chance
It might be different in the US vs. India, though. I know that's how the Maronites are. Maronite Catholicism in Lebanon is very traditional, but here it's Novus Ordized.
What about the Coptic Liturgy?
There's two in all of the United States, good question. One on each coast.
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About the Coptic Catholics. I didn’t mean where are the located. I have one near me. I meant, what about their Liturgy. They seem like they would be very orthodox.
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Hello Centro,
The proper position for the reception of Holy Communion in the Ruthenian/Ukrainian Rite is kneeling. This has been the case for approximately 200 years all the way up to the time after VII in the diaspora and up to the early 1990s in Ukraine and surrounding countries in Eastern Europe. The reasons given for this change varied from priest to priest - some of the more liberal clerics initiated this practice to emulate their Novus Ordo cousins while others wanted to emulate their “Mother Church” - the schismatic “Orthodox”.
It was one of the many issues of why the SSPX affiliated Society of St. Josaphat was formed in the late 1990s. The shock (to many people) of being forced to stand for the reception of the Holy Eucharist in the Ukrainian Rite was no different then what happened in the Latin Rite. It was the Modernist Clergy from the western Diaspora that forcibly implemented this change in Ukraine. The shift from Church Slavonic (in the Liturgy) to the vernacular in Ukraine was a result of the machinations of those same Modernists who were mostly ultra-nationalists.
The real danger of the Eastern Rites is the adoption of the false ecuмenism and ecclesiology of Vatican 2 which has manifested itself in “communicatio in sacris” (See the Eastern Code of Canon Law for the identical Novus Ordo canons allowing non-Catholics to the Holy Eucharist), the incorporation of false/schismatic saints into the Anthologion and Liturgy. It is standard practice that known “Orthodox” are allowed to receive the Eucharist (without renouncing their schism) and without any danger of death. Some eparchies (although the USA now remains one of the more relatively conservative areas) have implemented the NO “shaking of hands” or the kiss of peace as it is called.
So there is a danger. Be careful and make sure you investigate the lineage of your priest because there are doubtful bishops (i.e. those who had switched Rites as a priest from the NO or even one bishop that was consecrated in the NO in Rome). These two bishops would effect the Byzantine Catholic Church since they come from Western Ukraine and Slovakia and have sent priests ordained by them to the USA.
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Thanks for you info, Peter. I did do some investigating of the priest and his ordination. He was ordained be an Eatern rite bishop who was easily traced back to Cardinal Slipyj. The bishop to whom you refer that was consecrated in Rome was consecrated by JP2. It raised a red flag to me as well and I am making sure to avoid any priests ordained by that bishop since no co-consecrators were listed as present in Rome.
The UGCC openly criticizes Bergoglio’s “playing the fiddle” with the Orthodox schismatics. This would tell me that they are against false ecuмenism and from what I saw, the group where I attended makes being a Catholic necessary for receiving Eucharist.
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Your welcome Centroamerica
The most recent and official view of Met. Shevchuk and the Synod of Greek Catholic Bishops can be found in the docuмent "Ecuмenical Conception (Position) of the UGCC". (Original docuмent is here (http://news.ugcc.ua/docuмents/kontseptsіya_ekumenіchnoi_pozitsіi_ukrainskoi_grekokatolitskoi_tserkvi_75625.html)). Decreed Dec. 1, 2015 and came into force on Feb. 23, 2016.
For an English translation of the docuмent click here (http://ecuмenism.com.ua/images/1011%20Ecuм.%20Koncep.pdf). I can attest to the accuracy of the translation. Just skip to the bottom of the docuмent for the translation. Although this large docuмent is replete with Modernist errors I will quote and comment on the sections that specifically deal with "communicatio in sacris" and a false ecclesiology.
Consider Section 3.3.2 No. 55 - Relations with Orthodox Churches.
In her relations with non-Catholic Eastern Churches of different traditions, the UGCC, following the Second Vatican Council, recognizes that their great riches include theology and liturgical life, and that they have uninterrupted apostolic succession, true Sacraments, a rich tradition of spiritual life, therefore, “some worship in common [I would translate as sharing in the sacraments] (communicatio in sacris), given suitable circuмstances and the approval of Church authority, is not only possible but to be encouraged.”37 However, inasmuch as “worship in common (communicatio in sacris) is not to be considered as a means to be used indiscriminately for the restoration of Christian unity,”38 the UGCC does not allow Eucharistic communion before the moment of achieving full Christian unity, as common celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of established ecclesial communion, and not a means to achieve it. At the same time, in specific circuмstances the UGCC approves Eucharistic hospitality and the possibility for mutual reception of the Holy Mysteries by the laity.(39)
And if anyone doubts the authority of this docuмent I refer them to reference No. 39 from the above text. The reference cites Canon 671 of the authoritative Code of Canons for the Eastern Catholic Churches :
Canon 671 - §1. Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments only to Catholic Christian faithful, who, likewise, licitly receive the sacraments only from Catholic ministers.
§2. If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is permitted for Catholic Christian faithful, for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers, in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.
§3. Likewise Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick to Christian faithful of Eastern Churches, who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask for them on their own and are properly disposed. This holds also for the Christian faithful of other Churches, who according to the judgment of the Apostolic See, are in the same condition as the Eastern Churches as far as the sacraments are concerned.......
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NO, NO and NO again!!
The Eastern Catholics have accepted Vatican II. Their liturgy cannot be attended. Unless they are with the resistance.
END OF STORY!
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The only thing I’ve never attended and never will is the Novus Ordo. Every other group is on a case by case basis. That includes the SSPX, CMRI and resistance chapels and Eastern liturgies. I yellow light indescrimately.
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NO, NO and NO again!!
The Eastern Catholics have accepted Vatican II. Their liturgy cannot be attended. Unless they are with the resistance.
END OF STORY!
There is no Byzantine Catholic "Resistance" in the United States. If there is one it only, and I mean only exists in the Ukraine.
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Holy Communion was taken standing, as I learned is customary in the East. The Body was mixed with the Blood and was slightly warm. They were put into the receiver's mouth with a spoon
I went with my mother to an Eastern Rite Catholic mass because she wanted to see a female "seer" that was coming. I told her the seer was a farce, but she kept insisting so I took her and her sister, my aunt. When communion time came the priest went all over to give communion (the placed was packed even in the street), and when he went to give communion to my aunt, he flicked it into her mouth and it never got there. My aunt found it later in her purse when she got to her house. I'm sure it happened to many other people.
They can keep the "system".
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There is a huge debate about what the Society of St. Josephat is all about on a Byzantine forum I just stumbled across. When time permits, I plan to delve into that one. Seems interesting. From what I could skim through, the Byzantine Rite Catholics accuse the Society of St, Josephat of creating a hybrid Divine Liturgy with many Western elements using the Divine Liturgy of St. John in a way that Byzantines have never done. I'd have to read that closer.
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Maybe it’s it’s Byzcath.com; not sure. But the Society of St. Josaphat have been using the Liturgy that the Ukrainian Catholic Church has been using for centuries. They call such things as devotion to the Sacred Heart, Stations of the Cross, Holy Rosary, the theology of Thomism, kneeling, using a dead liturgical language i.e. Church Slavonic, as Latinisms.
Note that many of these changes (a so-called return to pre-synod of Zamosc) came under the conciliar popes and the same hierarchs they appointed. The Society of St. Josaphat is continuing the pre-VII Tradition which was extended into Ukraine into the 1990s because of the Iron Curtain. If the members of the forum in question are saying that the Society had changed the Liturgy from what they received then they are simply lying.
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Something to look out for at Orthodox churches is their longstanding opposition to miracles recognized by the Roman Church.
I spoke to some Coptics (Egypt) who assured me that NO ONE can EVER receive the marks of the crucifixion of Jesus on his body.
I attempted to describe the stigmata of Padre Pio and they appeared to be entirely unfamiliar with the word, "stigmata."
I described some of his miracles and they stood there shaking their heads in disbelief.
But let them describe miracles in their own tradition, and they fully expect us to believe them.
When I showed no incredulity to their own retelling of miracles, it had no effect on their non-acceptance of my testimony.
I had no problem accepting their stories but they stubbornly refused to accept any of mine.
They were hard-set against recognizing any miracles outside of the Coptic tradition.
Seems to be a ONE-WAY STREET.
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I believe that the Ukrainian Catholics were spared the ravages of V2 by God ... because this mercy was purchased through the deaths of the millions of Catholic martyrs they had under Stalin.
And the Jew, Lazar Kaganovich.
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/29542766_177811433029608_7522145543656728747_n.jpg?oh=afaef2c42a2bc8208567af944a83a575&oe=5B48FC31)
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They call such things as devotion to the Sacred Heart, Stations of the Cross, Holy Rosary, the theology of Thomism, kneeling, using a dead liturgical language i.e. Church Slavonic, as Latinisms.
I immediately decided not to ever attend the Syro-Malabar rite after visiting one of their websites and seeing images of Mother Theresa (I think the mission chose her as their patron).
If I had visited the UGCC site and seen pictures of the Divine Mercy devotion, I would never have visited their mission. In fact, when I confirmed they had valid orders and then saw they openly criticize Bergoglio, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs and liberals I believed they would be truly orthodox Catholics.
Could you imagine walking into a Divine Liturgy and seeing Divine Mercy images instead of icons? I would run away fast.
What is the Society of St. Josephat's official website (and apparently magazine) doing promoting the Divine Mercy devotions? They apparently think it's some sort of "Latinism" that will make them be Traditional Catholics? :facepalm: Fail.
Case by case basis, folks.
https://www.saintjosaphat.org/hkt/2016/5/
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Apparently, the Society of St. Josephat is real big into the Divine Mercy devotion and JP2's Faustina and feasts and all that.
From what I've seen (which is very superficial and only scratching the surface), I would pick the UGCC over them. The Liturgy in Old Church Slavonic would be great, unless they had Divine Mercy posters floating around...not knowing what to think.
https://www.saintjosaphat.org/hkt/2016/5/article/bozhe-myloserdya/
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And the SSJ is in favor of that because they don't want to admit it, but the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Divine Liturgy and the Russian Orthodox Divine Liturgy are the exact same, just added references to the Pope.
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Hi Centroamerica
I agree, that is certainly a problem. I knew about this and I wondered why they would promote this when their benefactors, the SSPX, were strongly against this false devotion (I’m not sure now?). It’s unfortunately a “devotion” among most Ukrainian Catholics in western Ukraine (be they Society of St. Josaphat or not). But that still doesn’t take away from the fact that “most” in the Ukrainian hierarchy have embraced the errors of Vatican II.
I agree it’s a case by case basis for choosing where to attend Holy Mass/Divine Liturgy . But from what I’ve seen in Eastern Europe, they (Society of St. Josaphat) are certainly the safest course. The danger of recognizing such men as JPII or Francis as one’s proximate rule of Faith is wreaking havoc in the Eastern Rites and I think the only reason that they have left the Divine Liturgy relatively unchanged (unlike the Novus Ordo) is an eventual schism to “Orthodoxy”. Many Ukrainian theologians are already discussing a “dual form” of Communion between Rome and Constantinople and Met. Shevchuk has at least hinted that this is the direction that the UGCC is headed. Many others have explicitly endorsed this above model.
There was an article on Rorate Caeli a few years back (click here (https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2008/06/return-to-orthodoxy-without-breaking.html)) but I can give you more recent references if you like.
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The society of st j are the n violation of at least 4 canons of the Ukrainian/Ruthenian treaty of Brest.
1- article 2 liturgy is to be in our own language (slavonic is mentioned later, slavonic is the vernacular for Ruthenian people, Ukrainian is the vernacular for Ukrainians) Eastern liturgy is normally in the vernacular.
2- article 7 specifically mentions no Corpus Christi festival other articles mention no filioque, etc. No Romanism basically
3- articles 15 no leaving our jurisdiction to join Rome, #30 if we suspend a priest you can not accept him.
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And the SSJ is in favor of that because they don't want to admit it, but the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Divine Liturgy and the Russian Orthodox Divine Liturgy are the exact same, just added references to the Pope.
I forgot to add to this - it should be the "Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Divine Liturgy as celebrated today"
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The nearby Coptic Catholic priest gave me a call today. They are having a two and a half hour Palm Sunday Mass in the Coptic Rite this Sunday. Thinking seriously about changing travel plans for Mass so I can go.
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And the Jew, Lazar Kaganovich.
Yep.
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So, further investigation has proven that "Peter" is definitely right and posts in good faith. The UGCC has definitely been rocked by the Robber Council. Seems they are definitely affected by false ecuмenism, despite holding deep-seated grudges against the Russian Orthodox. Surprisingly, they also have a so-called charismatic movement, with all its craziness and has apparently been officially promoted by the UGCC the major archbishop of Kyiv and leader of the UGCC, + Shevchuk.
Despite this, the UGCC Divine Liturgies are valid and licit where there is a valid priest and are completely Catholic. Modernist heretics are everywhere, even in Traditionalist groups, so why would anyone think they would be any exception.
I post this video with a disclaimer that there are erroneous and schismatic statements regarding the Holy Catholic Church made by Orthodox. Nevertheless, the video shows the state of the UGCC in Ukraine and how much scandal the V2 has given the Church. It could also be pointed out that it is a clearer sign of the Conciliar Church and the Catholic Church overlapping and having elements of both as is the official position of the Dominicans of Avrillé. One could not say that the UGCC is not a Catholic Church, although it is occupied by a modernist leadership.
https://youtu.be/g5WonijOgXc