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Author Topic: First time Eastern Liturgy  (Read 3210 times)

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Offline Centroamerica

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First time Eastern Liturgy
« on: March 18, 2018, 08:33:54 PM »
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  • So, I went to my first non-Tridentine Liturgy. It was actually held in an historical chapel attached to the modern church so it had that ancient feel already- wooden floors in a small chapel with brown brick walls built right after the end of the US cινιℓ ωαr. Huge surprise that the UGCC was allowed to use it. They have a mission here once a month. The Liturgy was standing and in English (first vernacular Liturgy ever attended). There were icons brought in to give it that Eastern feel and the priest offered the Liturgy with his back to the people. The words were totally Catholic praying for the end of heresy and at least 4 distinct times to the Theotokos Our Blessed Mother, also mentioning how the Liturgy was both the Last Supper and the Sacrifice of Calvary. No doubt could exist that the faithful believed in the Real Presence and that a true consecration took place. The sermon was totally orthodox dealing with martyrdom and persecutions of Christians and living a true Christian life at odds with the world-if the world doesn't hate you, you must not be living or preaching the Gospel (think Bergoglio?). Nothing but pure Catholicism. I'll be going back whenever possible.

    Holy Communion was taken standing, as I learned is customary in the East. The Body was mixed with the Blood and was slightly warm. They were put into the receiver's mouth with a spoon while a cloth was held under by the servers. It was like attending a standing Tridentine Mass in the vernacular but with all these other elements. For example, the priest walked around and through the chapel once holding the Word of God (either Sacred Scripture, the Gospels or Divine Liturgy) and again when he was presenting the gifts (wine and bread to be consecrated). There is a noticeable version of the Sursum Corda which is basically identical. The Our Father was at the same point of the Liturgy but instead of a confiteor the cantor led a different prayer that could be thought of as the Eastern version-though very different-, I'd like to find the text of that prayer. It was the only part of the Liturgy that was not chanted. We probably crossed ourselves no less than 40 times and from left to right as is customary and many times Lord Have Mercy and the responses Peace be with you- and with your spirit. After the Liturgy the faithful could kiss the cross that the priest held during the sermon and after the Liturgy, those who didn't receive Holy Communion could take a piece of blessed bread.

    I've found at least two more Catholic Eastern rites in the area. There is the Syro-malabar (an ancient rite from India). I'm a bit cautious to attend this Liturgy. I suspect it could have been tampered with by Modernists. I would have to investigate further before attending.

    But there is also a large Coptic community in my area. Apparently, most of them are Ortho-schismatics and have their own bishop. But there is also a Catholic Coptic community which now has a resident priest. From what I was able to find out about the Catholic Coptics, they are extremely Traditional and a lot of emphasis is given to the Real Presence in the Eucharist. I haven't decided exactly when, but I am definitely planning to attend the Coptic Catholic Liturgy.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #1 on: March 18, 2018, 09:04:53 PM »
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  • I believe, O Lord, and confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own most pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood. Therefore, I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and deed, committed in knowledge or in ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen.

    Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of Thy Mystery to Thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give Thee a kiss; but like the thief will I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord, in Thy Kingdom.

    May the communion of Thy Holy Mysteries be neither to my judgement, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #2 on: March 21, 2018, 08:30:30 AM »
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  • The Malabar use an electronic keyboard seriously bad electronic music look up a video when you get a chance
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #3 on: March 21, 2018, 09:22:10 AM »
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  • The Malabar use an electronic keyboard seriously bad electronic music look up a video when you get a chance
    What about the Coptic Liturgy?
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #4 on: March 21, 2018, 10:33:44 AM »
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  • So, I went to my first non-Tridentine Liturgy. It was actually held in an historical chapel attached to the modern church so it had that ancient feel already- wooden floors in a small chapel with brown brick walls built right after the end of the US cινιℓ ωαr. Huge surprise that the UGCC was allowed to use it. They have a mission here once a month. The Liturgy was standing and in English (first vernacular Liturgy ever attended). There were icons brought in to give it that Eastern feel and the priest offered the Liturgy with his back to the people. The words were totally Catholic praying for the end of heresy and at least 4 distinct times to the Theotokos Our Blessed Mother, also mentioning how the Liturgy was both the Last Supper and the Sacrifice of Calvary. No doubt could exist that the faithful believed in the Real Presence and that a true consecration took place. The sermon was totally orthodox dealing with martyrdom and persecutions of Christians and living a true Christian life at odds with the world-if the world doesn't hate you, you must not be living or preaching the Gospel (think Bergoglio?). Nothing but pure Catholicism. I'll be going back whenever possible.


    Yes, that lines up with my experience exactly.  There can be no question that they have the Catholic faith.  Are some of their priests a bit liberal?  Sure.  But probably no different than what you would find in Roman Rite parishes in the 1940s and 1950s.

    I believe that the Ukrainian Catholics were spared the ravages of V2 by God ... because this mercy was purchased through the deaths of the millions of Catholic martyrs they had under Stalin.


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #5 on: March 21, 2018, 12:33:12 PM »
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  • The Malabar use an electronic keyboard seriously bad electronic music look up a video when you get a chance
    It might be different in the US vs. India, though. I know that's how the Maronites are. Maronite Catholicism in Lebanon is very traditional, but here it's Novus Ordized.
    What about the Coptic Liturgy?
    There's two in all of the United States, good question. One on each coast.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #6 on: March 21, 2018, 02:11:18 PM »
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  • About the Coptic Catholics. I didn’t mean where are the located. I have one near me. I meant, what about their Liturgy. They seem like they would be very orthodox. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Peter

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #7 on: March 22, 2018, 12:10:52 PM »
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  • Hello Centro,

    The proper position for the reception of Holy Communion in the Ruthenian/Ukrainian Rite is kneeling. This has been the case for approximately 200 years all the way up to the time after VII in the diaspora and up to the early 1990s in Ukraine and surrounding countries in Eastern Europe. The reasons given for this change varied from priest to priest - some of the more liberal clerics initiated this practice to emulate their Novus Ordo cousins while others wanted to emulate their “Mother Church” - the schismatic “Orthodox”.

    It was one of the many issues of why the SSPX affiliated Society of St. Josaphat was formed in the late 1990s. The shock (to many people) of being forced to stand for the reception of the Holy Eucharist in the Ukrainian Rite was no different then what happened in the Latin Rite. It was the Modernist Clergy from the western Diaspora that forcibly implemented this change in Ukraine. The shift from Church Slavonic (in the Liturgy) to the vernacular in Ukraine was a result of the machinations of those same Modernists who were mostly ultra-nationalists.

    The real danger of the Eastern Rites is the adoption of the false ecuмenism and ecclesiology of Vatican 2 which has manifested itself in “communicatio in sacris” (See the Eastern Code of Canon Law for the identical Novus Ordo canons allowing non-Catholics to the Holy Eucharist), the incorporation of false/schismatic  saints into the Anthologion and Liturgy. It is standard practice  that known “Orthodox” are allowed to receive  the Eucharist (without renouncing their schism) and without any danger of death. Some eparchies (although the USA now  remains one of the more relatively conservative areas) have implemented the NO “shaking of hands” or the kiss of peace as it is called.

    So there is a danger. Be careful and make sure you investigate the lineage of your priest because there are doubtful bishops (i.e. those who had switched Rites as a priest from the NO or even one bishop that was consecrated in the NO in Rome). These two bishops would effect the Byzantine Catholic Church since they come from Western Ukraine and Slovakia and have sent priests ordained by them to the USA.


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #8 on: March 22, 2018, 12:26:16 PM »
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  • Thanks for you info, Peter. I did do some investigating of the priest and his ordination. He was ordained be an Eatern rite bishop who was easily traced back to Cardinal Slipyj. The bishop to whom you refer that was consecrated in Rome was consecrated by JP2. It raised a red flag to me as well and I am making sure to avoid any priests ordained by that bishop since no co-consecrators were listed as present in Rome. 

    The UGCC openly criticizes Bergoglio’s “playing the fiddle” with the Orthodox schismatics. This would tell me that they are against false ecuмenism and from what I saw, the group where I attended makes being a Catholic necessary for receiving Eucharist. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Peter

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #9 on: March 22, 2018, 01:12:53 PM »
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  • Your welcome Centroamerica

    The most recent and official  view of Met. Shevchuk and the Synod of Greek Catholic Bishops can be found in the docuмent "Ecuмenical Conception  (Position) of the UGCC".  (Original docuмent is here). Decreed Dec. 1, 2015 and came into force on Feb. 23, 2016.  

    For an English translation of the docuмent click here. I can attest to the accuracy of the translation. Just skip to the bottom of the docuмent for the translation. Although this large  docuмent is replete with Modernist errors I will quote and comment on the sections that specifically deal with "communicatio in sacris" and a  false ecclesiology. 

    Consider Section 3.3.2 No. 55 - Relations with Orthodox Churches.

    Quote
    In her relations with non-Catholic Eastern Churches of different traditions, the UGCC, following the Second Vatican Council, recognizes that their great riches include theology and liturgical life, and that they have uninterrupted apostolic succession, true Sacraments, a rich tradition of spiritual life, therefore, “some worship in common [I would translate as sharing in the sacraments] (communicatio in sacris), given suitable circuмstances and the approval of Church authority, is not only possible but to be encouraged.”37 However, inasmuch as “worship in common (communicatio in sacris) is not to be considered as a means to be used indiscriminately for the restoration of Christian unity,”38 the UGCC does not allow Eucharistic communion before the moment of achieving full Christian unity, as common celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of established ecclesial communion, and not a means to achieve it. At the same time, in specific circuмstances the UGCC approves Eucharistic hospitality and the possibility for mutual reception of the Holy Mysteries by the laity.(39)

    And if anyone doubts the authority of this docuмent I refer them to reference No. 39 from the above text. The reference cites Canon 671 of the authoritative Code of Canons for the Eastern Catholic Churches :

    Quote
    Canon 671 - §1. Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments only to Catholic Christian faithful, who, likewise, licitly receive the sacraments only from Catholic ministers.
     §2. If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is permitted for Catholic Christian faithful, for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers, in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.
     §3. Likewise Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick to Christian faithful of Eastern Churches, who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask for them on their own and are properly disposed. This holds also for the Christian faithful of other Churches, who according to the judgment of the Apostolic See, are in the same condition as the Eastern Churches as far as the sacraments are concerned.......



    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #10 on: March 22, 2018, 01:38:51 PM »
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  • NO, NO and NO again!!

    The Eastern Catholics have accepted Vatican II. Their liturgy cannot be attended. Unless they are with the resistance.

    END OF STORY!
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #11 on: March 22, 2018, 02:08:50 PM »
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  • The only thing I’ve never attended and never will is the Novus Ordo. Every other group is on a case by case basis. That includes the SSPX, CMRI and resistance chapels and Eastern liturgies. I yellow light indescrimately. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #12 on: March 22, 2018, 02:18:22 PM »
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  • NO, NO and NO again!!

    The Eastern Catholics have accepted Vatican II. Their liturgy cannot be attended. Unless they are with the resistance.

    END OF STORY!
    There is no Byzantine Catholic "Resistance" in the United States. If there is one it only, and I mean only exists in the Ukraine. 
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #13 on: March 22, 2018, 02:30:48 PM »
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  • Holy Communion was taken standing, as I learned is customary in the East. The Body was mixed with the Blood and was slightly warm. They were put into the receiver's mouth with a spoon
    I went with my mother to an Eastern Rite Catholic mass because she wanted to see a female "seer" that was coming. I told her the seer was a farce, but she kept insisting so I took her and her sister, my aunt. When communion time came the priest went all over to give communion (the placed was packed  even in the street), and when he went to give communion to my aunt, he flicked it into her mouth and it never got there. My aunt found it later in her purse when she got to her house. I'm sure it happened to many other people.

    They can keep the "system".
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: First time Eastern Liturgy
    « Reply #14 on: March 22, 2018, 04:49:49 PM »
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  • There is a huge debate about what the Society of St. Josephat is all about on a Byzantine forum I just stumbled across. When time permits, I plan to delve into that one. Seems interesting. From what I could skim through, the Byzantine Rite Catholics accuse the Society of St, Josephat of creating a hybrid Divine Liturgy with many Western elements using the Divine Liturgy of St. John in a way that Byzantines have never done. I'd have to read that closer.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...