N.O. Cathoilc 1:  Laramie, is there some participant in these debates that doesn't claim "to have maintained the Faith since Day One"? If so, I haven't met them. And when is it you think this crisis began? See my comments in the OP on "discontinuous narratives." That's exactly what I dispute.

N.O. Catholic 2:  As I wrote to Laramie supra:

"Oh boy.

So I guess every trad is a real keeper of the Faith, and every Jesuit theologian a secret (not so secret?) heretic?

In my experience, trad piety can be a pretty thin sauce, measured both on intellectual and moral terms."

Laramie:  Ho boy. So I guess every Novus Ordo mass-goer is a real keeper of the Faith, and every Trad Catholic is a psycho bitch dim-wit? In my experience, Novus Ordo piety can be a pretty thin sause, measured both on intellectual and moral terms.

No need to qualify yourself, ___. Your ideas will speak for themselves.

____ has essentially been calling Trads ignorant in his original post. People in this thread are calling Traditionalist Catholics assholes. In a previous thread on ___ Facebook, Mark Shea gleefully proclaimed Barnhardt a psycho. And it was ____ who claimed that Trads have maturbatory fantasies, that we can fuck ourselves, and so on.

And then ___ tells me I'm "claiming to be a victim." Is it mockery on his part? I don't care.

I've therefore been defending Traditionalist Catholics in this thread. It appears that the majority of people here love a new 50-year old liturgy and despise the folks who cherish the centuries-old liturgy. ____ says "the Latin Mass isn't coming back," and yet it IS coming back where I'm looking. Furthermore, Traditionalist Catholics are putting up a fight against flippant modernism, and this appears to piss off this crowd who thinks that everyone before the 20th Century doesn't matter, and that people need to "live in the now."

___, I haven't spoken about the virtues of each individual Trad, nor have I said anything about Jesuits. If you find Traditional Catholics to be thin intellectually and morally, than continue to read Patheos and Fishwrap. I'm not stopping you.

But I think that this conversation tonight has shown us (or me, at least) that a real bitter, antagonistic, and hateful divide has grown between those who are struggling to preserve the traditions of the Catholic Church, and those who disregard the former people.

And when I think of this latter fact, I am inclined to start labeling you people just as much as you label us. I find the Novus Ordo crowd to be glib, haughty, snobbish, and flippant with what has been bestowed upon us all by previous generations. And since this crowd is the majority, I think it is fitting that we lose the Catholic Church as we know it.

N.O. Catholic 2:  There's plenty of sin to go around sadly. Which rite one attends doesn't create any special moral authority.

I certainly don't think my preference for the Latin Mass makes me special, and I know folks who attend Novus Ordo whose sandles I'd be unfit to fasten, due to their extraordinary devotion to our Lord.

But I do I spend a decent part of my life trying to keep the doors open at St. Stephen's --- Cleveland's oldest church committed to preserving the sacrifice of the Mass in the Vetus Ordo. When projects need done, I'm the guy they call.

On Saturday, I'll be meeting with a structural engineer so that we can discuss what needs to be done before the roof can be fixed. Then I'll be working with a small team of volunteers to figure out how we pay for it.

None of this makes me holy. But it is a thankless task.

Some (not all) in the pews care more about their disgust with the bishop or the latest flap on Rorate Cæli than helping us figure out how we keep the lights on or the St. Vincent food pantry stocked.

Trad piety is a beautiful thing. But it sure needs a healthy dose of reality, and very often, a rigorous redirection towards the Corporal Acts of Mercy, or it can be simply (stale) smells and (tinkling) bells.

Nothing here denies "the [big] crisis," but in my experience, it's the little crises that too often trads prefer to ignore.

___, you asked me the other day why I'm hard on trads.

There's your answer.

Laramie:  What? You're hard on Trads because we put up a fight?

So, Trads are pollyannas who don't know anything about the world and don't perform Corporal Acts of Mercy. That's wonderful that you have the psychic powers of Charles Xavier--that you can see in to each of our lives and view the lives we each live.

I could care less how many old women you help across the street, nor how many houses you help build with Habitat for Humanity. Just as you could care less about how many actual stark and difficult realities a guy like me actually has to deal with in my personal life--of which you know nothing about.

Now, I know you want to reply and regale us all about some charity work you do, or how wonderfully cosmopolitan you are, about how you have your Trad friends or whatever. But before you flame on and peacock for the other liberals here, I will correct you and tell you that, yes, it IS more special to reverently worship our Lord in a reverent Latin Mass, versus dancing around a cracker in a sports jersey.

When you get over yourself some day, perhaps you can reflect on the reality--the "little crises" that I and other Trads are apparently ignoring, and yet living and working through. Because contrary to your NPR beliefs, Trads are human beings. I could have a father dying. My wife could have cancer. I could be doing charity work in a clinic for poor people once a week. I might actually be a struggling working man with a handful of kids, and I forgot to stop breeding like a rabbit like Papa Francis chided. You have no idea.

Presumptuous much? Go make yourself feel better, and donate money to ___'s goFundMe page so he can have his motorcycle. It'll make you feel better.

N.O. Catholic 2: I'll keep your family in my Rosary intentions today.

Laramie: Appreciated