Author Topic: Fighting for the Poor makes me Catholic  (Read 2307 times)

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Offline poche

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Fighting for the Poor makes me Catholic
« on: October 30, 2014, 01:23:36 AM »
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  •  Pope Francis spoke out against oppression of the poor due to greed and warned again of the growing presence of a “globalization of indifference” – a warning, he said, which has wrongly type-casted him.  

    “It is not possible to tackle poverty by promoting containment strategies to merely reassure, rendering the poor 'domesticated,' harmless and passive,” the Pope told those gathered for his Oct. 28 encounter with leaders of various Church movements.

    He called the basic needs for land, housing and work an “aspiration that should be within the reach of all but which we sadly see is increasingly unavailable to the majority.”  

    “It's strange, but if I talk about this, there are those who think that the Pope is Communist,” he said.

    “The fact that the love for the poor is in the center of the gospel is misunderstood,” the Pope added. “Those (values) for which you’re fighting for are sacred rights. It’s the Church’s social doctrine.”

    Held in the Vatican's Old Synod Hall, where previous synods took place before the construction of the Paul VI Hall, the meeting was organized by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace in collaboration with the Pontifical Academy for Social Sciences, along with the leaders of various movements.

    Solidarity, the Pope observed in his speech, is a word that is often forgotten in today’s society, and which extends far beyond sporadic acts of generosity.

    Instead it requires thinking in communal terms, and includes fighting structural causes of poverty such as inequality, unemployment, lack of land and housing, and the denial of social and labor rights, he said. It also requires facing the destructive effects of the “empire of money” such as forced displacement, painful migration, human trafficking, drugs, war and violence.

    “Today the phenomenon of exploitation and oppression assumes a new dimension, a graphical and hard edge of social injustice,” the Pope noted, explaining that this “throwaway culture” makes it so that those who are unable to integrate are marginalized and discarded as “cast-offs.”

    Situations such as this arise when economic systems make money their god and put it at the heart of their work rather than centering on the human person, created in the image of God, the pontiff continued.

    He then turned his attention to the phenomenon of unemployment, saying that each person who works, whether part of the formal system of paid work or not, “has the right to fair remuneration, social security and a pension.”

    These people, the pontiff noted, include those who recycle waste, street vendors, garment makers, craftsmen, fishermen, farmers, builders, miners, workers in companies in receivership, cooperatives and common trades which are often excluded from employment rights and denied the option of forming trades unions, as well as those who don’t receive a stable or sufficient income.

    “I wish to unite my voice to theirs and to accompany them in their struggle,” Pope Francis said.

    On the theme of peace and ecology, the Pope said that it is not possible to pursue land, housing or work if we can’t maintain the planet, or if we destroy it.

    “Creation is not our property which we may exploit as we please, (and) even less so the property of the few,” he explained, saying that instead creation is a gift from God that we must care for and use for the good of all humanity with respect and gratitude.

    Pope Francis went on to question those present in the audience, asking why, instead of viewing the world as our gift and fighting for justice, do we instead see work taken away, families evicted, peasants expelled from their land, war and harm done to nature.

    “Because this system has removed humanity from the center and replaced it with something else! Because of the idolatrous worship of money! Because of the globalization of indifference – ‘what does it matter to me what happens to others, I'll defend myself,’” the Pope explained.

    The world, said the pontiff, has forgotten God and so become “an orphan” because it has turned away from him.

    However, Christians have been given a strong guide and “revolutionary program” for how to act, which can be found in the Beatitudes, the Bishop of Rome noted, and encouraged all to read them.

    Pope Francis emphasized the importance of walking together, saying that popular movements express urgent need of revitalizing our democracies, which “so often (are) hijacked by many factors.”

    “It is impossible to imagine a future for society without the active participation of the majority, and this role extends beyond the logical procedures of formal democracy,” he said.

    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-fighting-for-the-poor-doesnt-make-me-communist-it-makes-me-catholic-99088/

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #1 on: October 30, 2014, 05:29:43 AM »
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  • Actually, since when did Communists really care about the poor any way?


    Offline ThomisticPhilosopher

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    « Reply #2 on: October 30, 2014, 10:23:09 AM »
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  • Geremia, and I have spoken about the topic of liars. Here a few links. Later on once I get more set in my workflow, I will go over this topic very deep.

    Essentially this has to do with the liar's paradox which has been a little of a philosophical conundrum. Aristotle gave his own answer, St. Thomas solved it partially in my estimation and some other's have also.

    Lots of post modern philosophers have created crazy metaphysical systems in order to answer the question.

    Now you might ask yourself, what does anything I just said have to do with this!

    This has a little bit to do with the Wathenite positions, once a Catholic always a Catholic. So if you have a heretic such as bergoglio saying, I am an apostate. Many sedeplenist's would be ridiculous enough to retort, "Well he is not speaking infallibly, when he says this!"

    http://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/16207/how-did-aristotle-or-st-thomas-resolve-the-liars-paradox/16243#16243

    Here is another interesting read for those who have the time and patience to do it (I read it all). http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liar-paradox/

    Quote
    The paradox is sometimes called the ‘Epimenides paradox’ as the tradition attributes a sentence like the first one in this essay to Epimenides of Crete, who is reputed to have said that all Cretans are always liars.

    ...Indeed, the Liar seems to allow us to reach such conclusions on the basis of logic, plus some very obvious principles that have sometimes been counted as principles of logic. Thus, we have the rather surprising situation of something near or like logic alone leading us to incoherence. This is perhaps the most virulent strain of paradox, and dealing with it has been an important task in logic for about as long as there has been logic.

    ...The Liar paradox begins with a language containing a truth predicate, which obeys some form of capture and release.



    Some scripture that talks about the paradox, in an indirect way. Just a brief reference, its not that important to the subject at hand.

    Quote
    Romans 3:4
    But God is true; and every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mayest be justified in thy words, and mayest overcome when thou art judged.


    Quote
    Psalm 115: [11] I said in my excess: Every man is a liar. [12] What shall I render to the Lord, for all the things he hath rendered unto me?


    Lastly, there is some Church teaching that goes over how to be able to spot a liar, and know the intent of a person based on their own words. I will also go over this later on, it is not necessary to mind read. Some of sacramental theology in fact is based on this very premise for the form of the words, constitutes to the Church as a crucial part of the intent necessary to give valid sacraments.
    https://keybase.io/saintaquinas , has all my other verified accounts including PGP key plus BTC address for bitcoin tip jar. A.M.D.G.

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #3 on: October 30, 2014, 11:43:23 PM »
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  • This has a little bit to do with the Wathenite positions, once a Catholic always a Catholic. So if you have a heretic such as bergoglio saying, I am an apostate. Many sedeplenist's would be ridiculous enough to retort, "Well he is not speaking infallibly, when he says this!"

    When has Pope Francis ever said those words?

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #4 on: October 30, 2014, 11:48:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: ThomisticPhilosopher
    Geremia, and I have spoken about the topic of liars. Here a few links. Later on once I get more set in my workflow, I will go over this topic very deep.

    Essentially this has to do with the liar's paradox which has been a little of a philosophical conundrum. Aristotle gave his own answer, St. Thomas solved it partially in my estimation and some other's have also.

    Lots of post modern philosophers have created crazy metaphysical systems in order to answer the question.

    Now you might ask yourself, what does anything I just said have to do with this!

    This has a little bit to do with the Wathenite positions, once a Catholic always a Catholic. So if you have a heretic such as bergoglio saying, I am an apostate. Many sedeplenist's would be ridiculous enough to retort, "Well he is not speaking infallibly, when he says this!"

    http://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/16207/how-did-aristotle-or-st-thomas-resolve-the-liars-paradox/16243#16243

    Here is another interesting read for those who have the time and patience to do it (I read it all). http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liar-paradox/

    Quote
    The paradox is sometimes called the ‘Epimenides paradox’ as the tradition attributes a sentence like the first one in this essay to Epimenides of Crete, who is reputed to have said that all Cretans are always liars.

    ...Indeed, the Liar seems to allow us to reach such conclusions on the basis of logic, plus some very obvious principles that have sometimes been counted as principles of logic. Thus, we have the rather surprising situation of something near or like logic alone leading us to incoherence. This is perhaps the most virulent strain of paradox, and dealing with it has been an important task in logic for about as long as there has been logic.

    ...The Liar paradox begins with a language containing a truth predicate, which obeys some form of capture and release.



    Some scripture that talks about the paradox, in an indirect way. Just a brief reference, its not that important to the subject at hand.

    Quote
    Romans 3:4
    But God is true; and every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mayest be justified in thy words, and mayest overcome when thou art judged.


    Quote
    Psalm 115: [11] I said in my excess: Every man is a liar. [12] What shall I render to the Lord, for all the things he hath rendered unto me?


    Lastly, there is some Church teaching that goes over how to be able to spot a liar, and know the intent of a person based on their own words. I will also go over this later on, it is not necessary to mind read. Some of sacramental theology in fact is based on this very premise for the form of the words, constitutes to the Church as a crucial part of the intent necessary to give valid sacraments.

    What doese any of this have to do with fighting for the poor?


    Offline poche

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    « Reply #5 on: October 30, 2014, 11:52:18 PM »
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  • Actually there is along tradition in the Catholic Church of preocupation for the welfare of the poor, St Wenceslaus, St Elizabeth of Hungary, St Margaret of Scotland, Pope St Gregory the Great, St John Chrysostom, the list goes on.  

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #6 on: October 31, 2014, 05:00:59 PM »
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  • .........According to Liberalism, it is in loving one's neighbor that one
    loves God according to the direction of St. John: "For he that loveth
    not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth
    not?" (I Jn. 4:20). Taking these and similar quotations out of their
    context in the Scriptures, the New Charity-mongers have cast aside all
    theological principles, doctrinal and moral, and have determined that
    nothing else matters but the provisioning of the poor and needy; and
    that the Christian must finally realize that all ideological considerations
    are subordinate to this Scriptural command, so that he and all
    others might unite in this work. The human race is divided into two
    groups, those in need, and those who should be taking care of them;
    or, to put it as the Marxists do, the "haves-nots" and the "haves."

    As these lovers of mankind see it, such is the urgency of the
    problem, that all other considerations must give way to it, and anyone
    who does not see things in this way is himself "a part of the problem."
    In their view, until the Second Vatican Council, the Church and its
    clergy proceeded piously to ignore the world's poor, while it
    befriended the wealthy and condoned the baneful evil of capitalism,
    and the priests condemned the honest efforts of all those who tried to
    do something about social injustice, calling them all "do-gooders,"
    Liberals, socialists, and Communists. While a great part of the
    world's population went hungry, the Church continued to amass
    wealth, and continued to exert itself toward the defense of the status
    quo. It allowed itself to become the tool of capitalism and "reactionism."
    It assigned its priests and religious to the instruction of the
    "haves," while it closed its eyes to the way its own children
    perpetuated oppression and exploitation.

    As Liberal Catholics see it, it is only since the Second Vatican
    Council that the Church has begun to awaken somewhat to its true
    role on earth, namely, the love and defence and service of the poor
    and downtrodden, and cooperation with everyone and every agency
    which shows itself to be sensitive to this world-wide problem, not
    excluding International Communism-which deserves credit for
    having called the attention of the world to this great cause, and
    instigating the Revolution of the Proletariat, the poor. Furthermore,
    instead of protecting itself, the Church should allow itself to be
    renewed by the Theology of Liberation, which seeks to adapt the positive
    aspects of Marxism to Christianity.

    In the eyes of Liberals, what the world needs, and all that the
    world needs, is  "love, sweet love." The only theology the Church
    needs, the only message it needs have for the world, is the true and
    only message that Jesus had for the world, "love thy neighbor." Even
    to differ with this view of things is to excuse all the callousness and
    greed, self-interest and hypocrisy of our modern capitalistic society.
    True love includes all justice, all mercy, and all other virtues. Indeed,
    it can be said that love is the norm for all men, Christians and non-
    Christians; it is all-sufficient, so that there is no need for any more
    talk; now is the time for action. And the action that is needed is the
    mobilization of the whole world for the sake of the have-nots: all
    governments, all agencies, all religious denominations, and all
    religious communities and associations within these denominations.

    Thus do Liberals reason, and since they now control the Catholic
    Church, their reasoning has become the theology and dominant motif
    of the Conciliar Establishment. ..........

    This snip is by Fr. Wathen, from his book; Who Shall Ascend?




    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #7 on: November 03, 2014, 01:22:13 AM »
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  • St Martin de Porres was another saint who very much loved the poor.


    Offline OHCA

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    « Reply #8 on: November 03, 2014, 03:41:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    "It's strange, but if I talk about this, there are those who think that the Pope is Communist,” he said.


    Maybe it's because you got long-winded and starry-eyed in discussing seeing elements of communism in the Church in your interview with your atheist chum...

    Quote from: Poche
    Instead it requires thinking in communal terms...


    Excuse me, Frank--there's that root-word again...

    Quote from: Poche
    ...and includes fighting structural causes of poverty such as inequality, unemployment, lack of land and housing, and the denial of social and labor rights...


    Inequality?  Code for supporting race-mixing, knocking down gender boundaries, etc. modernist/liberal/freemasonic/communist bullshit.

    Quote from: Poche
    He then turned his attention to the phenomenon of unemployment, saying that each person who works, whether part of the formal system of paid work or not, “has the right to . . . social security and a pension.”


    Really?

    Quote from: Poche
    These people, the pontiff noted, include those who recycle waste, street vendors, garment makers, craftsmen, fishermen, farmers, builders, miners, workers in companies in receivership, cooperatives and common trades which are often excluded from employment rights and denied the option of forming trades unions, as well as those who don’t receive a stable or sufficient income.


    I really don't think you wanted to omit drug-dealers and whores...

    Did your handlers make you leave them out, Frank?

    Quote from: Poche
    The world, said the pontiff, has forgotten God and so become “an orphan” because it has turned away from him.


    But who are you to judge, Frank?

    --------

    Nice try, Poche.  At least His Humbleness gave lip-service to implying that he is not a communist.  I think his rhetoric still gives him away though.

    On a brighter note, your ratings may be on the climb, Poche--I am out of down-thumbs for you, and I expect several others are too.

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #9 on: November 03, 2014, 04:14:08 AM »
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  • poche said:
    "It's strange, but if I talk about this, there are those who think that the Pope is Communist,” he said.


    Maybe it's because you got long-winded and starry-eyed in discussing seeing elements of communism in the Church in your interview with your atheist chum...

    Could it be that there are some elements in communism that coincide with Christianity?

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #10 on: November 03, 2014, 04:23:47 AM »
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  • Poche said:
    Instead it requires thinking in communal terms...


    Excuse me, Frank--there's that root-word again...

    It is also the root of the word, "common good" which was taught by pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Rerum Novarum.


    Offline poche

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    « Reply #11 on: November 03, 2014, 04:47:59 AM »
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  • Poche said:
    ...and includes fighting structural causes of poverty such as inequality, unemployment, lack of land and housing, and the denial of social and labor rights...


    Inequality?  Code for supporting race-mixing, knocking down gender boundaries, etc. modernist/liberal/freemasonic/communist bull####.

    equality before teh law may be something that we take for granted but it has not always been available for everybody.
    Lack of land/housing - hisorically  in Latin America the lack of land comes from a long history of unjust expropriation of land from the indigenous peoples and giving it over to a very few who were able to live very comfortably while large numbers of people do without That is not fair. Justice is one of the cardinal virtues.
    Denial of social and labor rights once again is a matter of cheating some people out of what is fair. once again, going against justice is going against one of the cardinal virtues.

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #12 on: November 03, 2014, 04:49:37 AM »
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  • Poche said:
    He then turned his attention to the phenomenon of unemployment, saying that each person who works, whether part of the formal system of paid work or not, “has the right to . . . social security and a pension.”


    Really?

    Poche said:
    These people, the pontiff noted, include those who recycle waste, street vendors, garment makers, craftsmen, fishermen, farmers, builders, miners, workers in companies in receivership, cooperatives and common trades which are often excluded from employment rights and denied the option of forming trades unions, as well as those who don’t receive a stable or sufficient income.


    I really don't think you wanted to omit drug-dealers and whores...

    Did your handlers make you leave them out, Frank?

    Pope Francis said nothing about prostitution. With respect t drug dealing, Pope francis said that members of the mafia ( that applies to drug dealers) are excommunicated.

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #13 on: November 03, 2014, 04:52:41 AM »
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  • Poche said:
    The world, said the pontiff, has forgotten God and so become “an orphan” because it has turned away from him.


    But who are you to judge, Frank?

    --------

    Nice try, Poche.  At least His Humbleness gave lip-service to implying that he is not a communist.  I think his rhetoric still gives him away though.

    On a brighter note, your ratings may be on the climb, Poche--I am out of down-thumbs for you, and I expect several others are too.

    When the Pope talks about the world forgettnig god he is paraphrasing the message of Fatima. The Holy Virgin warned that if people did not repent another more terrible war would come, nations would be annihilated. We forget God at our peril. There will be a terrible day of judgement.  

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #14 on: November 03, 2014, 01:16:14 PM »
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  • The question I want to see answered is whether Pope Francis thinks communism is a good thing.



     

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