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Offline SenzaDubbio

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Feeding Souls with the Doctrine of Truth
« on: June 29, 2014, 06:37:04 PM »
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  • source: http://www.cmri.org/02-feeding-souls.shtml

    Feeding Souls with the Doctrine of Truth
    By Rev. Fr. Benedict Hughes, CMRI

    Over the past few months, the affairs of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) have been much in the news. Will they reunite with Rome or not? There is great speculation and interest. And why is this? Because the SSPX for many is the face of the traditional movement. They have many priests, churches, schools, and parishioners in various countries throughout the world.

    While the size and spread of the SSPX portrays a picture of vitality, not all is well within, particularly in the area of theology. Sadly, the exterior visage hides a confusion resulting from an incoherent and self-contradictory theological position. While I do not intend in this brief article to enumerate all of the erroneous theological teachings current in the SSPX, the following are a few of the more notable:

        that the ordinary universal magisterium of the Church is not safeguarded by infallibility;
        that the supreme authority of the Church can promulgate laws that are injurious to souls;
        that the supreme authority of the Church can err in canonizations;
        that the faithful must disobey the authority of the Church when they are convinced that it is in their best interests spiritually;
        that the faithful must determine when they can obey and when they cannot obey the Church’s authority;
        that it is up to the faithful to instruct and reform the authority of the Church, when it has gone astray;
        that it is permissible to set up an authority different from and opposed to the Church’s authority for the guidance of the faithful (namely, the superiors of the SSPX);
        and so forth.

    This is not in any sense intended to be a complete listing, but rather a simple demonstration of the veracity of my contention, that theological errors are rampant in the SSPX. Many others have commented on these various errors, which could easily be shown to contradict past authoritative decisions of the Popes and Councils, and to be contrary to the unanimous teaching of the theologians of the Church. Further, these teachings are not limited to a few of the priests of the SSPX, but are widespread, as anyone familiar with the Society knows. They have been spread consistently by priests and superiors in the SSPX.

    But what is the source of all these errors, and why cannot the SSPX see clearly to reject these errors, which have been frequently pointed out, along with citations of sources of reference to authentic Catholic teaching? The reason, I believe, is because of a fundamental error, which lies at the root of all the other errors of the SSPX. Yes, there is a basic error which perpetuates all the others, despite efforts of various priests and bishops to alert the members of the SSPX to these errors.

    And what is this fundamental error? It is the belief, the conviction, that Archbishop Lefebvre, the founder of the SSPX, was saintly and was thus gifted by God with a unique ability to see clearly what path a faithful Catholic should take today. Certainly, it is understandable that the members of the SSPX would like to believe that their founder was saintly. Indeed, he may well have been a holy man. The point, however, is that he was wrong in his ultimate conclusions as to the nature of the problem we face.

    One example as evidence of this way of thinking is contained in a letter recently written by a priest of the SSPX who stated: “Archbishop Lefebvre was the greatest missionary of the 20th century and... a great future saint of the Catholic Church.” Their founder has often been called by the members of the SSPX the “Athanasius of our times.” But even holy men have been wrong in the course of Church history. It also must be borne in mind that Archbishop Lefebvre, having grown up in the structure of the Church before Vatican II, found it difficult — despite what his instincts were telling him concerning the apostasy of the majority of the priests and bishops — to finally recognize that this structure, infested with modernists, was no longer Catholic, and hence that he must separate himself and his organization from it entirely.

    If the priests and bishops of the Society of St. Pius X wish to truly honor their founder, they can do so by being thoroughly Catholic. They must recognize the full extent of the problems facing us today and respond by adhering to what Popes, Councils and theologians have taught down through the centuries. They must abandon this tailored theology, which is a departure from what the Church has taught in the past.

    This reminds me of an interview which was given by one of the SSPX bishops several years ago. The interviewer from a conservative publication kept asking the bishop how he could justify ignoring and disobeying what he considered to be true Catholic authority. After dancing around the issue the bishop finally answered that Archbishop Lefebvre followed that line and he believed the archbishop was raised up by God to guide us in these times! In other words, he could not draw upon any theologian or Church teaching to explain his position.

    Philosophers call this type of reasoning (namely, the theological rationale for rejecting that which the SSPX considers to be true Catholic authority, on the sole basis that that is the course pursued by Archbishop Lefebvre) the fallacy ad verecundiam. We hope that the members of the SSPX will reconsider their theological position and honor their founder by pursuing truly Catholic theology. Let them remember that many of the faithful look to them for guidance. They must, as good shepherds, feed these faithful with the doctrine of truth.

    Offline Mabel

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    Feeding Souls with the Doctrine of Truth
    « Reply #1 on: June 29, 2014, 07:50:06 PM »
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  • I really like how Fr. Benedict is able to be so concise. For someone not to familiar with the issues at hand or only starting to look into them with a serious regard for truth, this is a very good article. I appreciate his ability to present things without verbiage, which is so often present with others.



    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #2 on: June 30, 2014, 05:25:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: SenzaDubbio


    This reminds me of an interview which was given by one of the SSPX bishops several years ago. The interviewer from a conservative publication kept asking the bishop how he could justify ignoring and disobeying what he considered to be true Catholic authority. After dancing around the issue the bishop finally answered that Archbishop Lefebvre followed that line and he believed the archbishop was raised up by God to guide us in these times! In other words, he could not draw upon any theologian or Church teaching to explain his position.[/u]

    Philosophers call this type of reasoning (namely, the theological rationale for rejecting that which the SSPX considers to be true Catholic authority, on the sole basis that that is the course pursued by Archbishop Lefebvre) the fallacy ad verecundiam. We hope that the members of the SSPX will reconsider their theological position and honor their founder by pursuing truly Catholic theology. Let them remember that many of the faithful look to them for guidance. They must, as good shepherds, feed these faithful with the doctrine of truth.



    This is a total crock of manure.

    As is typical with all heresies, truth is error and error is the new truth. We see this fact exemplified above.

    The  fact of the matter is that Rev. Fr. Benedict Hughes cannot *honestly* draw upon any theologian or Church teaching anywhere or from anytime in Church history which gives anyone, particularly any priest, the right, duty, responsibility or authority to proclaim there is no pope while there is a pope sitting right in the Chair, at least not without themselves incurring the censure of the Church.

    All anyone need know is that not only does sedevacantism have zero tradition within the Church, it is something new, not traditional - as such no theologian or Church teaching even exists which supports the sedevacantist position, only condemnations of it. Period.

    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline SenzaDubbio

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    « Reply #3 on: June 30, 2014, 07:30:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: SenzaDubbio


    This reminds me of an interview which was given by one of the SSPX bishops several years ago. The interviewer from a conservative publication kept asking the bishop how he could justify ignoring and disobeying what he considered to be true Catholic authority. After dancing around the issue the bishop finally answered that Archbishop Lefebvre followed that line and he believed the archbishop was raised up by God to guide us in these times! In other words, he could not draw upon any theologian or Church teaching to explain his position.[/u]

    Philosophers call this type of reasoning (namely, the theological rationale for rejecting that which the SSPX considers to be true Catholic authority, on the sole basis that that is the course pursued by Archbishop Lefebvre) the fallacy ad verecundiam. We hope that the members of the SSPX will reconsider their theological position and honor their founder by pursuing truly Catholic theology. Let them remember that many of the faithful look to them for guidance. They must, as good shepherds, feed these faithful with the doctrine of truth.



    This is a total crock of manure.

    As is typical with all heresies, truth is error and error is the new truth. We see this fact exemplified above.

    The  fact of the matter is that Rev. Fr. Benedict Hughes cannot *honestly* draw upon any theologian or Church teaching anywhere or from anytime in Church history which gives anyone, particularly any priest, the right, duty, responsibility or authority to proclaim there is no pope while there is a pope sitting right in the Chair, at least not without themselves incurring the censure of the Church.

    All anyone need know is that not only does sedevacantism have zero tradition within the Church, it is something new, not traditional - as such no theologian or Church teaching even exists which supports the sedevacantist position, only condemnations of it. Period.



    On the Rev. Father's Congregation's website there is much you could pull from to support his statement. The concept of sedevacantism is not new. You can see this clearly from St. Robert Bellermine's portion of his treatise. He himself pulls statements from Cajetan, St. Jerome, St. Cyprian, St. Augustine, and others saints.

    An Extract from St. Robert Bellarmine,
    De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30
    http://www.cmri.org/02-bellarmine-roman-pontiff.html

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #4 on: July 01, 2014, 05:13:35 AM »
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  • Go to his website?

    That is a website to avoid! This sede priest blatantly lies saying that a SSPX bishop (of all people) dances around the issue and had no answer except he followed +ABL in the matter - as though a the bishop was a mindless twerp with no mind of his own.

    That is a total crock of you know what.

    All this does is demonstrate the Rev's dishonesty in the matter and to post that this priest is "feeding souls with doctrinal truth" is an even greater lie.

    There is no doctrine supporting sedevacantism, not one, never has been and never will be - those who fool themselves into thinking there is such a doctrine never even consider that so far, no pope has been stupid enough to teach that he himself can be dethroned based on the opinions of his subject - that is democratic NO thinking.

    So no, do not go to that priest's website - if you cannot see right through his lies then that is even more reason to completely stay away from him lest you pollute your thinking through his errors even more.


     


     
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Offline SenzaDubbio

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    « Reply #5 on: July 01, 2014, 06:54:10 PM »
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  • I can post it for you here:

    This document, which was translated by Jim Larrabee, is one of many excellent resources provided by John Lane on his traditional Catholic web site, www.strobertbellarmine.net. The following introductory remarks are by Mr. Lane:

    While it is true that St. Robert Bellarmine thought it impossible that a pope could ever lose the faith and hence the papacy, he considered this opinion not theologically certain. For this reason he proceeded to examine the question of what would happen were a pope to become a heretic. The following extract from his treatise on the papacy deals with this question. It should be noted that in the spirit of Christian humility we ought not to go against the mind of any Doctor of the Universal Church without very grave reasons (if ever). Hence it is preferable to hold that the manifest heretics John Paul II and Paul VI were never popes at all, being non-Catholics from before their “election” and thus not valid matter for the papacy to begin with.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    An Extract from St. Robert Bellarmine,
    De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30

    The fourth opinion is that of Cajetan, for whom (de auctor. papae et con., cap. 20 et 21) the manifestly heretical Pope is not “ipso facto” deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is “ipso facto” deposed. The argument from authority is based on St. Paul (Titus, c. 3), who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate — which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence. And this is what St. Jerome writes, adding that the other sinners are excluded from the Church by sentence of excommunication, but the heretics exile themselves and separate themselves by their own act from the body of Christ. Now, a Pope who remains Pope cannot be avoided, for how could we be required to avoid our own head? How can we separate ourselves from a member united to us?

    This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. de great. Christ. cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope.

    To this Cajetan responds (in Apol. pro tract. praedicto cap. 25 et in ipso tract. cap. 22) that the heretic is not a Christian “simpliciter” [i.e. without qualification, or absolutely], but is one “secundum quid” [i.e. in a qualified or relative sense]. For, granted that two things constitute the Christian — the faith and the [baptismal] character — the heretic, having lost the faith, is still in some way united to the Church and is capable of jurisdiction; therefore, he is also Pope, but ought to be removed, since he is disposed, with ultimate disposition, to cease to be Pope: as the man who is still not dead but is “in extremis” [at the point of death].

    Against this: in the first place, if the heretic remained, “in actu” [actually], united to the Church in virtue of the character, he would never be able to be cut or separated from her “in actu,” for the character is indelible. But there is no one who denies that some people may be separated “in actu” from the Church. Therefore, the character does not make the heretic be “in actu” in the Church, but is only a sign that he was in the Church and that he must return to her. Analogously, when a sheep wanders lost in the mountains, the mark impressed on it does not make it be in the fold, but indicates from which fold it had fled and to which fold it ought to be brought back. This truth has a confirmation in St. Thomas who says (Summ. Theol. III, q. 8, a. 3) that those who do not have the faith are not united “in actu” to Christ, but only potentially — and St. Thomas here refers to the internal union, and not to the external which is produced by the confession of faith and visible signs. Therefore, as the character is something internal, and not external, according to St. Thomas the character alone does not unite a man, “in actu,” to Christ.

    Further against the argument of Cajetan: either faith is a disposition necessary “simpliciter” for someone to be Pope, or it is only necessary for someone to be a good Pope [“ad bene esse,” to exist well, to be good, as opposed to simply existing]. In the first hypothesis, in case this disposition be eliminated by the contrary disposition, which is heresy, the Pope immediately ceases to be Pope: for the form cannot maintain itself without the necessary dispositions. In the second hypothesis, the Pope cannot be deposed by reason of heresy, for otherwise he would also have to be deposed for ignorance, immorality, and other similar causes, which impede the knowledge, the morality, and the other dispositions necessary for him to be a good Pope (“ad bene esse papae”). In addition to this, Cajetan recognises (tract. praed., ca. 26) that the Pope cannot be deposed for the lack of dispositions necessary, not “simpliciter,” but only “ad bene esse.”

    To this, Cajetan responds that faith is a disposition necessary “simpliciter,” but partial, and not total; and that, therefore, even if his faith disappears he can still continue being Pope, by reason of the other part of the disposition, the character, which still endures.

    Against this argument: either the total disposition, constituted by the character and by faith, is necessary “simpliciter,” or it is not, the partial disposition then being sufficient. In the first hypothesis, the faith disappearing there no longer remains the disposition “simpliciter” necessary, for the disposition “simpliciter” necessary was the total, and the total no longer exists. In the second hypothesis, the faith is only necessary “ad bene esse,” and therefore its absence does not justify the deposition of the Pope. In addition to this, what finds itself in the ultimate disposition to death, immediately thereafter ceases to exist, without the intervention of any other external force, as is obvious; therefore, also the Pope heretic ceases to be Pope by himself, without any deposition.

    Finally, the Holy Fathers teach unanimously not only that heretics are outside of the Church, but also that they are “ipso facto” deprived of all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and dignity. St. Cyprian (lib. 2, epist. 6) says: “We affirm that absolutely no heretic or schismatic has any power or right”; and he also teaches (lib. 2, epist. 1) that the heretics who return to the Church must be received as laymen, even though they have been formerly priests or bishops in the Church. St. Optatus (lib. 1 cont. Parmen.) teaches that heretics and schismatics cannot have the keys of the kingdom of heaven, nor bind nor loose. St. Ambrose (lib. 1 de poenit., ca. 2), St. Augustine (in Enchir., cap 65), St. Jerome (lib. cont. Lucifer.) teach the same.

    Pope St. Celestine I (epist. ad Jo. Antioch., which appears in Conc. Ephes., tom. I, cap. 19) wrote: “It is evident that he [who has been excommunicated by Nestorius] has remained and remains in communion with us, and that we do not consider destituted [i.e. deprived of office, by judgment of Nestorius], anyone who has been excommunicated or deprived of his charge, either episcopal or clerical, by Bishop Nestorius or by the others who followed him, after they commenced preaching heresy. For he who had already shown himself as deserving to be excommunicated, could not excommunicate anyone by his sentence.”

    And in a letter to the clergy of Constantinople, Pope St. Celestine I says: “The authority of Our Apostolic See has determined that the bishop, cleric, or simple Christian who had been deposed or excommunicated by Nestorius or his followers, after the latter began to preach heresy shall not be considered deposed or excommunicated. For he who had defected from the faith with such preachings, cannot depose or remove anyone whatsoever.”

    St. Nicholas I (epist. ad Michael) repeats and confirms the same. Finally, St. Thomas also teaches (S. Theol., II-II, q. 39, a. 3) that schismatics immediately lose all jurisdiction, and that anything they try to do on the basis of any jurisdiction will be null.

    There is no basis for that which some respond to this: that these Fathers based themselves on ancient law, while nowadays, by decree of the Council of Constance, they alone lose their jurisdiction who are excommunicated by name or who assault clerics. This argument, I say, has no value at all, for those Fathers, in affirming that heretics lose jurisdiction, did not cite any human law, which furthermore perhaps did not exist in relation to the matter, but argued on the basis of the very nature of heresy. The Council of Constance only deals with the excommunicated, that is, those who have lost jurisdiction by sentence of the Church, while heretics already before being excommunicated are outside the Church and deprived of all jurisdiction. For they have already been condemned by their own sentence, as the Apostle teaches (Tit. 3:10-11), that is, they have been cut off from the body of the Church without excommunication, as St. Jerome affirms.

    Besides that, the second affirmation of Cajetan, that the Pope heretic can be truly and authoritatively deposed by the Church, is no less false than the first. For if the Church deposes the Pope against his will it is certainly above the Pope; however, Cajetan himself defends, in the same treatise, the contrary of this. Cajetan responds that the Church, in deposing the Pope, does not have authority over the Pope, but only over the link that unites the person to the pontificate. In the same way that the Church in uniting the pontificate to such a person, is not, because of this, above the Pontiff, so also the Church can separate the pontificate from such a person in case of heresy, without saying that it is above the Pope.

    But contrary to this it must be observed in the first place that, from the fact that the Pope deposes bishops, it is deduced that the Pope is above all the bishops, though the Pope on deposing a bishop does not destroy the episcopal jurisdiction, but only separates it from that person. In the second place, to depose anyone from the pontificate against the will of the deposed, is without doubt punishing him; however, to punish is proper to a superior or to a judge. In the third place, given that according to Cajetan and the other Thomists, in reality the whole and the parts taken as a whole are the same thing, he who has authority over the parts taken as a whole, being able to separate them one from another, has also authority over the whole itself which is constituted by those parts.

    The example of the electors, who have the power to designate a certain person for the pontificate, without however having power over the Pope, given by Cajetan, is also destitute of value. For when something is being made, the action is exercised over the matter of the future thing, and not over the composite, which does not yet exist, but when a thing is destroyed, the action is exercised over the composite, as becomes patent on consideration of the things of nature. Therefore, on creating the Pontiff, the cardinals do not exercise their authority over the Pontiff for he does not yet exist, but over the matter, that is, over the person who by the election becomes disposed to receive the pontificate from God. But if they deposed the Pontiff, they would necessarily exercise authority over the composite, that is, over the person endowed with the pontifical power, that is, over the Pontiff.

    Therefore, the true opinion is the fifth, according to which the Pope who is manifestly a heretic ceases by himself to be Pope and head, in the same way as he ceases to be a Christian and a member of the body of the Church; and for this reason he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the opinion of all the ancient Fathers, who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction, and outstandingly that of St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2) who speaks as follows of Novatian, who was Pope [i.e. antipope] in the schism which occurred during the pontificate of St. Cornelius: “He would not be able to retain the episcopate [i.e. of Rome], and, if he was made bishop before, he separated himself from the body of those who were, like him, bishops, and from the unity of the Church.”

    According to what St. Cyprian affirms in this passage, even had Novatian been the true and legitimate Pope, he would have automatically fallen from the pontificate, if he separated himself from the Church.

    This is the opinion of great recent doctors, as John Driedo (lib. 4 de Script. et dogmat. Eccles., cap. 2, par. 2, sent. 2), who teaches that only they separate themselves from the Church who are expelled, like the excommunicated, and those who depart by themselves from her or oppose her, as heretics and schismatics. And in his seventh affirmation, he maintains that in those who turn away from the Church, there remains absolutely no spiritual power over those who are in the Church. Melchior Cano says the same (lib. 4 de loc., cap. 2), teaching that heretics are neither parts nor members of the Church, and that it cannot even be conceived that anyone could be head and Pope, without being member and part (cap. ult. ad argument. 12). And he teaches in the same place, in plain words, that occult heretics are still of the Church, they are parts and members, and that therefore the Pope who is an occult heretic is still Pope. This is also the opinion of the other authors whom we cite in book I De Ecclesia.

    The foundation of this argument is that the manifest heretic is not in any way a member of the Church, that is, neither spiritually nor corporally, which signifies that he is not such by internal union nor by external union. For even bad Catholics [i.e. who are not heretics] are united and are members, spiritually by faith, corporally by confession of faith and by participation in the visible sacraments; the occult heretics are united and are members although only by external union; on the contrary, the good catechumens belong to the Church only by an internal union, not by the external; but manifest heretics do not pertain in any manner, as we have already proved.

    Offline songbird

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    « Reply #6 on: July 01, 2014, 07:55:43 PM »
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  • Don't forget Vatican I, infallibility.  In order to come to this, defining Pope was a must and pope was defined.

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #7 on: July 02, 2014, 04:09:18 AM »
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  • The opinions of St. Robert are not doctrine.
     


     
    Yes, the faithful may know well that he [the pope] has committed a sin to which a censure is affixed by the Church, but this knowledge in no way qualifies them to declare him deprived of his office, or never to have been elected. We should have to continue to obey him as the pope in all those religious matters which fall within the ambit of his authority, UNLESS he should command something which is sinful.

    However, even though the hierarchy cannot take legal action against an heretical pope, all of them together, or any one of them in particular, can condemn his teaching; they can accuse him before God's tribunal, warn him of his sins, and remind him of the divine wrath. Should this measure fail to produce any correction, they can denounce him before his subjects, the Catholic faithful, and warn them that they are not to listen to his teaching. Indeed, not only may the prelates of the Church do this, they have a most serious obligation to do it, an obligation which is as grave as the heresies are pernicious and scandalous. And if they fail to do this, they become a party to the pope's crimes, and will most certainly share in his punishment.

    Moreover, where the bishops default in their solemn duty to protect the Church and God's Little Sheep, the priests and the laypeople have not the right, but the duty, to raise their voices against an heretical pontiff. They not only raise their voices to God in prayer for the misguided man, but they also speak out to the bishops and the priests, and among themselves so as to warn their brothers and sisters in Christ that the plague of heresy has infected even their Holy Father, and has rendered him dangerous and unclean. - Fr. Wathen




    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Offline SenzaDubbio

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    « Reply #8 on: July 07, 2014, 03:35:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    All anyone need know is that not only does sedevacantism have zero tradition within the Church, it is something new, not traditional - as such no theologian or Church teaching even exists which supports the sedevacantist position, only condemnations of it. Period.


    Bull Cum Ex Apostolatus [16 Feb. 1559], Pope Paul IV

    — “Further, if ever it should appear that any bishop (even one acting as an archbishop, patriarch or primate), or a cardinal of the Roman Church, or a legate (as mentioned above), or even the Roman Pontiff (whether prior to his promotion to cardinal, or prior to his election as Roman Pontiff), has beforehand deviated from the Catholic faith or fallen into any heresy, We enact, decree, determine and define:

    — “Such promotion or election in and of itself, even with the agreement and unanimous consent of all the cardinals, shall be null, legally invalid and void.

    — “It shall not be possible for such a promotion or election to be deemed valid or to be valid, neither through reception of office, consecration, subsequent administration, or possession, nor even through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff himself, together with the veneration and obedience accorded him by all.

    — “Such promotion or election, shall not through any lapse of time in the foregoing situation, be considered even partially legitimate in any way....

    — “Each and all of their words, acts, laws, appointments of those so promoted or elected — and indeed, whatsoever flows therefrom — shall be lacking in force, and shall grant no stability and legal power to anyone whatsoever.

    — “Those so promoted or elected, by that very fact and without the need to make any further declaration, shall be deprived of any dignity, position, honor, title, authority, office and power.”
    - See more at: http://www.cmri.org/02-answering-objections-sede.html#sthash.agA8MLHl.dpuf

    Offline SenzaDubbio

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    « Reply #9 on: July 07, 2014, 03:40:29 PM »
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  • St. Francis de Sales:

        “Now when the Pope is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church . . . ”

    St. Robert Bellarmine:

        “A Pope who is a manifest heretic automatically ceases to be a Pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction.”

    St. Alphonsus Liguori:

        “If ever a Pope, as a private person, should fall into heresy, he should at once fall from the Pontificate. If, however, God were to permit a pope to become a notorious and contumacious heretic, he would by such fact cease to be pope, and the apostolic chair would be vacant.”

    St. Antoninus:

        “In the case in which the Pope would become a heretic, he would find himself, by that very fact alone and without any other sentence, separated from the Church. A head separated from a body cannot, as long as it remains separated, be head of the same body from which it was cut off.”

    Wernz-Vidal — Canon Law, 1943

        “Through notorious and openly divulged heresy, the Roman Pontiff, should he fall into heresy, by that very fact (ipso facto) is deemed to be deprived of the power of jurisdiction even before any declaratory judgment by the Church... A Pope who falls into public heresy would cease ipso facto to be a member of the Church; therefore, he would also cease to be head of the Church.” And also: “A doubtful pope is no pope.”

    Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913

        “The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.”

    Pope Innocent III:

        “The Pope should not flatter himself about his power nor should he rashly glory in his honor and high estate, because the less he is judged by man, the more he is judged by God. Still the less can the Roman Pontiff glory because he can be judged by men, or rather, can be shown to be already judged, if for example he should wither away into heresy; because he who does not believe is already judged, In such a case it should be said of him: ‘If salt should lose its savor, it is good for nothing but to be cast out and trampled under foot by men.’”


    - See more at: http://www.cmri.org/02-sede-quotes.html#sthash.BJezsRMa.dpuf

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #10 on: July 09, 2014, 04:52:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: SenzaDubbio
    Quote from: Stubborn
    All anyone need know is that not only does sedevacantism have zero tradition within the Church, it is something new, not traditional - as such no theologian or Church teaching even exists which supports the sedevacantist position, only condemnations of it. Period.


    Bull Cum Ex Apostolatus [16 Feb. 1559], Pope Paul IV

    — “Further, if ever it should appear that any bishop (even one acting as an archbishop, patriarch or primate), or a cardinal of the Roman Church, or a legate (as mentioned above), or even the Roman Pontiff (whether prior to his promotion to cardinal, or prior to his election as Roman Pontiff), has beforehand deviated from the Catholic faith or fallen into any heresy, We enact, decree, determine and define:

    — “Such promotion or election in and of itself, even with the agreement and unanimous consent of all the cardinals, shall be null, legally invalid and void.

    — “It shall not be possible for such a promotion or election to be deemed valid or to be valid, neither through reception of office, consecration, subsequent administration, or possession, nor even through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff himself, together with the veneration and obedience accorded him by all.

    — “Such promotion or election, shall not through any lapse of time in the foregoing situation, be considered even partially legitimate in any way....

    — “Each and all of their words, acts, laws, appointments of those so promoted or elected — and indeed, whatsoever flows therefrom — shall be lacking in force, and shall grant no stability and legal power to anyone whatsoever.

    — “Those so promoted or elected, by that very fact and without the need to make any further declaration, shall be deprived of any dignity, position, honor, title, authority, office and power.”
    - See more at: http://www.cmri.org/02-answering-objections-sede.html#sthash.agA8MLHl.dpuf




    Why did you neglect to post the first part of the Bull where we are instructed what exactly it is we can do about a pope who has deviated from the faith:

    ".......the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted...."

    Again, our knowledge of the popes' sins in no way qualifies any of us, alone or all together in unison, to declare him deprived of his office, or never to have been elected. Or if you disagree with this, what is it that makes you think otherwise?

    Also, what about the hierarchy? How can one depose the pope but not his entire hierarchy? His hierarchy is just as guilty as he is since no way could the new church have ever replaced the True Church without them.

    So again, Rev. Fr. Benedict Hughes is not feeding anyone the doctrine of truth, he is feeding them his own doctrine. And I still say he speaks enough manure to cover Nebraska from border to border.

    The entire OP is about the stupidity of SSPX bishops and how great Rev. Fr. Benedict Hughes is for being victorious over a brainless SSPX bishop - where is the doctrine of truth in that?

    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Offline SenzaDubbio

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    « Reply #11 on: July 09, 2014, 02:10:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Why did you neglect to post the first part of the Bull where we are instructed what exactly it is we can do about a pope who has deviated from the faith:

    ".......the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted...."


    I believe that part of the Bull is irrelevant is this case. It may have been usefully applied during the reigns of John XXIII or Paul VI.

    — “Further, if ever it should appear that any bishop (even one acting as an archbishop, patriarch or primate), or a cardinal of the Roman Church, or a legate (as mentioned above), or even the Roman Pontiff (whether prior to his promotion to cardinal, or prior to his election as Roman Pontiff), has beforehand deviated from the Catholic faith or fallen into any heresy, We enact, decree, determine and define: .....

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #12 on: July 18, 2014, 05:31:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: SenzaDubbio
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Why did you neglect to post the first part of the Bull where we are instructed what exactly it is we can do about a pope who has deviated from the faith:

    ".......the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted...."


    I believe that part of the Bull is irrelevant is this case. It may have been usefully applied during the reigns of John XXIII or Paul VI.

    — “Further, if ever it should appear that any bishop (even one acting as an archbishop, patriarch or primate), or a cardinal of the Roman Church, or a legate (as mentioned above), or even the Roman Pontiff (whether prior to his promotion to cardinal, or prior to his election as Roman Pontiff), has beforehand deviated from the Catholic faith or fallen into any heresy, We enact, decree, determine and define: .....


    Well, it appears that *every* priest, nun, deacon, bishop (even one acting as an archbishop, patriarch or primate), cardinal of the Roman Church, or a legate (as mentioned above), and even the Roman Pontiff have deviated from the Catholic faith and fallen into heresy - so according to your reasoning and that of other SVs, why is only the pope not a pope?

    After all, it mentions them all right there, so how is it that the priests, bishops, cardinals get a free pass and keep their offices?  

    Again, our knowledge of the popes' sins in no way qualifies any of us to declare him deprived of his office, or never to have been elected. Or if you disagree with this, what is it that makes you think your knowledge of the popes' sins qualify you to declare him deprived of his office, or never to have been elected?

    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline SenzaDubbio

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    « Reply #13 on: July 19, 2014, 06:30:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Again, our knowledge of the popes' sins in no way qualifies any of us to declare him deprived of his office, or never to have been elected.


    Wouldn't the knowledge of Bergoglio's deviation from the Faith oblige us to be obedient to Paul IV's Bull?

    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    « Reply #14 on: July 19, 2014, 09:01:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: SenzaDubbio

    that the ordinary universal magisterium of the Church is not safeguarded by infallibility;


    Ordinary Universal Magisterium means "all always and everywhere taught." It is always infallible. It does not come from a specific individual. You may be referring to the the Ordinary or Authentic Magisterium. This is when a specific Pope teaches "Outside the Chair" and it is not infallible unless it agrees with the UOM.

    Quote from: SenzaDubbio

    that the supreme authority of the Church can promulgate laws that are injurious to souls;


    Putting your name to documents (or allowing others to do so) and officially promulgating are not necessarily the same thing. Wishing and hoping does not constitute a promulgation.

    Quote from: SenzaDubbio

    that the supreme authority of the Church can err in canonizations;

       
    Canonization comes from the Church as a whole. The decree does not guarantee infallibility in itself. Canonizations rely on testimony and facts. "A Pope can err in fact, not in questions of right (faith and morals-emphasis mine), he can err extra cathedram, Outside the Chair of Peter...but he cannot err when he is in cathedra (St. Francis de Sales-The Catholic Controversy-pg.307). Nevertheless tradition says the Catholic Church (as a whole) is protected during this process. Notice the Catholic Church (not the Conciliar human Church of the New Advent).

    Quote from: SenzaDubbio

    that the faithful must disobey the authority of the Church when they are convinced that it is in their best interests spiritually;


    Resisting wayward prelates is part of tradition. Priests and laypersons declaring sedevacante is not.
       
    Quote from: SenzaDubbio

    that the faithful must determine when they can obey and when they cannot obey the Church’s authority;

       
    Sedevacantists do the same thing except they go a step further and declare vacant offices.

    Quote from: SenzaDubbio

    that it is up to the faithful to instruct and reform the authority of the Church, when it has gone astray;

       
    See St. Paul and St. Thomas Aquinas (amongst many others) regarding this.

    Quote from: SenzaDubbio

    that it is permissible to set up an authority different from and opposed to the Church’s authority for the guidance of the faithful (namely, the superiors of the SSPX);

       
    So sedevacantist priests are not authorities who guide their faithful?  :confused1:

     

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