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Author Topic: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?  (Read 13405 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #120 on: February 10, 2022, 04:28:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on February 09, 2022, 05:45:04 PM
    Nothing personal...just a breakdown of the situation...

    This one means that you, in fact, are the Pope, as you actually decide what you can and cannot obey, which is no kind of obedience worthy of the name.  In reality, of course, this is all just a ploy, as such people never actually obey (or even really pay attention to) what is being said.  How does that seem remotely Catholic?  What is the point of having a Church or supposedly-infallible leader at all?  This is like a warm, cozy blanket to make people feel better in response to an unfathomably sad and difficult situation -- but it is NOT Catholicism.
    Yes.  This is what I keep coming back to....why have a pope/the papacy at all?  Why wouldn't the Protestants be correct in questioning that Catholic teaching all along?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #121 on: February 10, 2022, 04:51:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on February 10, 2022, 04:28:25 AM
    Quote
    How does that seem remotely Catholic?  What is the point of having a Church or supposedly-infallible leader at all?


    Yes.  This is what I keep coming back to....why have a pope/the papacy at all?  Why wouldn't the Protestants be correct in questioning that Catholic teaching all along?
    The reason for the pope/papacy is because God established the position, that's all the reason Catholics need but prots will never accept. And no, He did not establish the position in order to corrupt the faith and souls of the many who are called - who choose to go along with the errors of their own free will.  

    It is not remotely Catholic, it is fully and wholly Catholic to reject error no matter the source. Just because the multitudes went along and still go along with all the conciliar popes' errors and heresies does not change that fact.

    And the reason for such a remark at all (in bold), is that the poster has the same misunderstanding that the misguided multitudes have as regards the infallibility of the pope. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #122 on: February 10, 2022, 05:49:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on February 09, 2022, 05:45:04 PM
    Nothing personal...just a breakdown of the situation...

    This one means that you, in fact, are the Pope, as you actually decide what you can and cannot obey, which is no kind of obedience worthy of the name.  In reality, of course, this is all just a ploy, as such people never actually obey (or even really pay attention to) what is being said.  How does that seem remotely Catholic?  What is the point of having a Church or supposedly-infallible leader at all?  This is like a warm, cozy blanket to make people feel better in response to an unfathomably sad and difficult situation -- but it is NOT Catholicism.
    I think its most probable that "the Pope said it, now obey" is an over simplistic epistemology and perhaps an overreaction to Eastern Orthodoxy.  MY BEST GUESS is that that's the correct lesson to be drawn from this.

    I think Sedes have this issue too though.  "You decide what you can and cannot obey" also.  You just do it by deciding who is and isn't pope.

    My point is though, I'm not dogmatic about this.  Maybe I'm wrong.  To be honest I'm guessing most "R and R" in real life aren't dogmatic, but it does seem like a few people online are
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #123 on: February 10, 2022, 08:02:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on February 10, 2022, 05:49:56 AM
    I think Sedes have this issue too though.  "You decide what you can and cannot obey" also.  You just do it by deciding who is and isn't pope.
    This isn't really true though. As we aren't just picking and choosing what not to obey, but throwing out the edicts of these putative "Popes" entirely and sticking with what was promulgated before them (generally stopping with Pius XII, although there are definitely some who do move this cut-off). We accept all that was taught by the Popes from Christ until Pius XII with the assent of Faith because they come from the Supreme Pontiff (meaning they may not be absolutely binding as dogmatic pronouncements, but are accepted out of obedience due to his position).

    The problem, I think, which comes with SV is not picking and choosing, but pushing innovations and novelties, in a dogmatic fashion, as a means to combat the modernist rot.

    The criticism towards R&R is that they believe John 23 through Francis are all legitimate Pontiffs, but they do not even give the assent of Faith to all of their teachings. Which is why there is the accusation of "picking and choosing" what to obey, which is not, and never has been, a Catholic position.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #124 on: February 10, 2022, 08:48:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on February 10, 2022, 08:02:50 AM
    The criticism towards R&R is that they believe John 23 through Francis are all legitimate Pontiffs, but they do not even give the assent of Faith to all of their teachings. Which is why there is the accusation of "picking and choosing" what to obey, which is not, and never has been, a Catholic position.
    If the sedes would like to inform R&R of those teachings which we can obey, then we could have a conversation about it.

    As it is, the way the sedes pose the accusation it's as if the sedes would like R&R to obey whatever the pope teaches without any regard whatsoever to the faith, just like the many, who of their own free will choose to blindly submit and are on the road to hell because of it.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #125 on: February 10, 2022, 09:12:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 10, 2022, 08:48:23 AM
    If the sedes would like to inform R&R of those teachings which we can obey, then we could have a conversation about it.

    As it is, the way the sedes pose the accusation it's as if the sedes would like R&R to obey whatever the pope teaches without any regard whatsoever to the faith, just like the many, who of their own free will choose to blindly submit and are on the road to hell because of it.

    Well, first off, Catholics believe the Pope is protected from such things by the Holy Ghost. So to "blindly submit" as you call it, is par the course. Second, Pius IX lays the main problem out pretty simply in the Syllabus:

    22. The obligation by which Catholic teachers and authors are strictly bound is confined to those things only which are proposed to universal belief as dogmas of faith by the infallible judgment of the Church. — Letter to the Archbishop of Munich, “Tuas libenter,” Dec. 21, 1863.

    But, given how you have been going round and round this hamster wheel for years now, nothing I nor any other SV can present will change your "Stubborn" mind
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #126 on: February 10, 2022, 09:42:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on February 10, 2022, 09:12:46 AM
    But, given how you have been going round and round this hamster wheel for years now, nothing I nor any other SV can present will change your "Stubborn" mind


    I think that sedevacantists want us to obey them, since they believe that there is no Pope. Since the sede church is a church of the laity, the laity might as well dictate the terms. And the terms are that all trads must be sedes. Well, some of us aren't going along with that. Sorry, but that's just how it is. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #127 on: February 10, 2022, 11:21:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 10, 2022, 09:42:46 AM

    I think that sedevacantists want us to obey them, since they believe that there is no Pope. Since the sede church is a church of the laity, the laity might as well dictate the terms. And the terms are that all trads must be sedes. Well, some of us aren't going along with that. Sorry, but that's just how it is.
    No, we actually just want you to realize that the position you hold is contradictory. And we've proven that over and over and over again. But alas, nothing changes.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #128 on: February 10, 2022, 11:23:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on February 10, 2022, 09:12:46 AM
    Well, first off, Catholics believe the Pope is protected from such things by the Holy Ghost. So to "blindly submit" as you call it, is par the course. Second, Pius IX lays the main problem out pretty simply in the Syllabus:

    22. The obligation by which Catholic teachers and authors are strictly bound is confined to those things only which are proposed to universal belief as dogmas of faith by the infallible judgment of the Church. — Letter to the Archbishop of Munich, “Tuas libenter,” Dec. 21, 1863.

    But, given how you have been going round and round this hamster wheel for years now, nothing I nor any other SV can present will change your "Stubborn" mind
    Bolded is false. Per V1, the pope is protected from error when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. Against V1, NOers and sedes do not believe this.

    From the Syllabus #22, we are not bound to any new teachings, we are bound "to those things *only* which are proposed to universal belief as dogmas of faith by the infallible judgment of the Church."


    If you ever want to get off the hamster wheel - then inform R&R of those authoritative and uniquely conciliar teachings which we can obey.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #129 on: February 10, 2022, 11:36:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on February 10, 2022, 11:21:36 AM
    No, we actually just want you to realize that the position you hold is contradictory. And we've proven that over and over and over again. But alas, nothing changes.
    You say it is contradictory because of a misguided notion of authority. If it were an angel preaching a new Gospel, St. Paul tells us we are to let him be anathema, not insist he's not an angel. Tell St. Paul he's preaching contradictions.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline dxcat40

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #130 on: February 10, 2022, 12:38:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 10, 2022, 11:23:22 AM
    ...

    From the Syllabus #22, we are not bound to any new teachings, we are bound "to those things *only* which are proposed to universal belief as dogmas of faith by the infallible judgment of the Church."

    ...
    Are you using the condemned proposition from #22 to support your position? Could you clarify for the reader ?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #131 on: February 10, 2022, 12:48:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: dxcat40 on February 10, 2022, 12:38:44 PM
    Quote
    From the Syllabus #22, we are not bound to any new teachings, we are bound "to those things *only* which are proposed to universal belief as dogmas of faith by the infallible judgment of the Church."

    Are you using the condemned proposition from #22 to support your position? Could you clarify for the reader ?
    You know what, yes, I guess I was, mea culpa. Thanks for pointing that out to me, I thought something was wrong with that, at any rate, I meant we are not bound to new doctrines, which the NO is full of and which apparently, the sedes insist that R&R obey to prove that we believe he is the pope.

    Either way, the false accusations will never end, which is why I said "If you ever want to get off the hamster wheel - then inform R&R of those authoritative and uniquely conciliar teachings which we can obey."
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #132 on: February 10, 2022, 03:37:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 10, 2022, 12:48:22 PM
    Either way, the false accusations will never end, which is why I said "If you ever want to get off the hamster wheel - then inform R&R of those authoritative and uniquely conciliar teachings which we can obey."

    Well said. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #133 on: February 10, 2022, 03:43:16 PM »
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    • The sedevacantists will always accuse us of not obeying the Pope, even though they don't believe Francis is the Pope.

    After all, why should they care what we believe? Is it because they will feel better if all trads think that same way that they do? Then, perhaps, they will feel better about the choice they have made, and maybe will feel more normal. Or is it because they want the Sede ideology to control all of Tradition and all Trads?

    Either way, it's a very immature thing to do.....to accuse us, who just want to remain good Catholics....because we don't believe that there's no pope and no hierarchy and no visible Church. If only we would believe this, then they will let us alone. But they are ever restless and never happy, because they know deep down that they are wrong. Maybe what they are looking for is peace, but it cannot be found in constantly accusing us of not believing as they do.

    If they want to believe that there's no Pope, that's fine, but leave us alone already!
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #134 on: February 10, 2022, 04:18:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 10, 2022, 03:43:16 PM
    The sedevacantists will always accuse us of not obeying the Pope, even though they don't believe Francis is the Pope.
    Because you profess him to be the Pope, with the full Petrine authority, therefore, we expect you to practice what you profess. We don't believe he is, therefore, when we see others absolutely insisting that he must be Pope, not even just materially, but formally, then it's an error that needs to be addressed.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]
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