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Author Topic: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?  (Read 15553 times)

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Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #115 on: February 09, 2022, 04:42:55 PM »
You are correct. But I would like to point out that the sede interpretation of Bellarmine is actually incorrect. Bellarmine argues R&R - He said a heretical pope should be "resisted" and "who will depose him since he is a sovereign?" and "an ecuмenical council cannot even do it". If you don't believe me, then go read the pertinent chapters of "On the Roman Pontiff"

Yet here we have laymen who will depose him, and uncharitably attack those who actually hold the position of the Saint they claim as their own. Others take it even further and make it a new dogma that you must hold and even change the canon of the Mass. How isn't that the slyest manifestation of Modernism in existence?

All this over what? As has already been pointed out ad nauseam - there isn't a practical difference between the R&R and sede approaches to the crisis. R&R already knows that Rome has lost the Faith. They already operate outside the Conciliar Church. Maybe the sedes should go bark at the local Novus Ordo church, or FSSP if they want to evangelize. But I have a feeling evangelization isn't what this is really about...
it seems to hold your position elucidated, one must practically disregard the "Pope" as if practically speaking he doesn't exist.  How that doesn't make you a "practical " sedevacantist, whereas to publicly call him the Pope yet disregard him and his errors?  Tell me how that is not the quintessence of schism? 

Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #116 on: February 09, 2022, 05:45:04 PM »
I guess I’ve always leaned more towards #2

Nothing personal...just a breakdown of the situation...

This one means that you, in fact, are the Pope, as you actually decide what you can and cannot obey, which is no kind of obedience worthy of the name.  In reality, of course, this is all just a ploy, as such people never actually obey (or even really pay attention to) what is being said.  How does that seem remotely Catholic?  What is the point of having a Church or supposedly-infallible leader at all?  This is like a warm, cozy blanket to make people feel better in response to an unfathomably sad and difficult situation -- but it is NOT Catholicism.


Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #117 on: February 09, 2022, 05:52:37 PM »
 Also.....what about the idea that if only enough trads adopt the sede view, then Rome will be forced to become Traditional? A lot of sedes think this. R&R do not, of course.

You have several people (me, Mark, Lad) in this very thread telling you this idea is a pure fabrication.  Why do you keep repeating it?  How many SVs do you actually know in any kind of meaningful way?  Seriously.  Five?  One?  Any?

Irony of ironies, it is common knowledge that +ABL tried to hold the line precisely so Rome would "return to Tradition" -- the very lie you keep groundlessly attributing to SVs.  Such phraseology was par for the course for decades in SSPX-land.

Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #118 on: February 09, 2022, 06:03:14 PM »
I can understand why you think that it's R&R who have turned the papacy into a cardboard cutout.

Non Nocere.

Of course you can because it is an obvious, observable fact.  It is clear you are fond of the Latin saying, but it can be taken multiple ways and your take isn't correct or healthy.  Such a mentality aids and abets the complete spiritual destruction of the world, all because nobody has declared legally what we can all see with our own eyes.  

If you saw a man murder someone, would you refrain from treating him as a murderer until a court declared him such?  What if he got off?  Would you still go with what you saw with your own eyes?

Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #119 on: February 09, 2022, 06:07:46 PM »
Now sedes will generally say that R&R do not follow Scripture and Tradition, because we do not in reality follow the Pope. But even though this has some truth in it, it still does not mean that Sedevacantism is the way to go. 

This is classic.  Accepting self-contradiction to avoid accepting mystery is unwise.  It is God's Church; He has it all under control and will restore when and as He sees fit.  No sense in making a mess of things in the meantime.  

BTW, if there is "some truth in it," that necessarily means there is "some lie" in the position itself.