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Author Topic: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?  (Read 13350 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2022, 12:36:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 05, 2022, 10:17:36 AM
    I would like to know what exactly sedes disagree with re +ABL's reasoning...

    As I indicated above, you falsely appropriate Archbishop Lefebvre as a proponent of your position.  While the Archbishop never took the step of publicly declaring the See vacant, deferring to the Church's final decision, he clearly agreed that the papacy is protected by the Holy Spirit from this degree of destruction.  He speculated about how this could have happened, given that premise and opts not to make a definitive conclusion, although he repeatedly stated that it's quite possible that the See is vacant.  You on the other hand reject the premise entirely and try to co-opt Archbishop Lefebvre as a dogmatic R&R.

    It's no different than when the BoDers co-opt the Church Doctors who believed in BoD as if they were defenders of their position that infidels could be saved.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #61 on: February 05, 2022, 12:53:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 05, 2022, 12:31:52 PM
    Stop this nonsesne.  It isn't theologians of the last few centuries.  This is the universal teaching of the Church from the beginning, from the Church Fathers, from Popes, Doctors of the Church, etc.  Your ecclesiology is decidedly in lockstep with that of the Prots and Old Catholics.
    Once we get an orthodox Pope, I have a suspicion that the R&R attitude will remain, obedience goes down the tubes once the Pope says or does something they don't like. Same with some sedes,  as soon as he says something they think is heresy, he's not the Pope.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #62 on: February 05, 2022, 01:06:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on February 05, 2022, 12:53:24 PM
    Once we get an orthodox Pope, I have a suspicion that the R&R attitude will remain, obedience goes down the tubes once the Pope says or does something they don't like. Same with some sedes,  as soon as he says something they think is heresy, he's not the Pope.
    They sure have done a number on us, haven't they?
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #63 on: February 05, 2022, 01:13:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on February 05, 2022, 01:06:11 PM
    They sure have done a number on us, haven't they?
    They really have. I suspect that it may lead to a neo-Pharaism once the Church has been restored leading up to the Last Days, much like the Jєωιѕн Church after the captivity and the time of the Greek occupation before the Incarnation. 
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #64 on: February 05, 2022, 01:19:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on February 05, 2022, 10:19:35 AM
    They gave clear answers, as they have done every single time this debate starts up again.
    Not so.

    I want to know exactly what +ABL said, (which he essentially referenced St. Thomas' principle that we can disobey the pope only when the faith is in question) - that he disagrees with, instead, as per usual, Lad gave the sede version of why +ABL agrees with sedes.

    What's worse, that, or that you say they gave clear answers every time? I'm not sure. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #65 on: February 05, 2022, 01:22:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 05, 2022, 12:31:52 PM
    Stop this nonsesne.  It isn't theologians of the last few centuries.  This is the universal teaching of the Church from the beginning, from the Church Fathers, from Popes, Doctors of the Church, etc.  Your ecclesiology is decidedly in lockstep with that of the Prots and Old Catholics.
    Ridiculous.

    Forgive me for not taking your word for it again oh great one - I will watch in case you ever post some quote from the Church since this teaching is universally taught by the Church - should be easy for you to do.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #66 on: February 05, 2022, 01:29:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 05, 2022, 07:33:13 AM
    Father Chazal articulated a position that gives R&R a lifeline to avoid a heretical ecclesiology, and yet they refuse to take it.

    I'd love to understand why people like SeanJohnson, who's all about the Resistance, rejects Father Chazal's position.  What do you disagree with Father Chazal about?

    Fr. Chazal takes Cardinal Catejan's position. Remember what I posted earlier on the thread? Here's what Fr. Chazal wrote in his book, Contra Cekadam:

    "Catejan does not say that one has to refuse the jurisdiction of the suspect Pontiff, as you contend (addressing Fr. Cekada), but that someone could, for good reasons."

    This shows that Fr. Chazal is not a sedeprivationist. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #67 on: February 05, 2022, 01:30:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 05, 2022, 12:36:12 PM
    As I indicated above, you falsely appropriate Archbishop Lefebvre as a proponent of your position.  While the Archbishop never took the step of publicly declaring the See vacant, deferring to the Church's final decision, he clearly agreed that the papacy is protected by the Holy Spirit from this degree of destruction.  He speculated about how this could have happened, given that premise and opts not to make a definitive conclusion, although he repeatedly stated that it's quite possible that the See is vacant.  You on the other hand reject the premise entirely and try to co-opt Archbishop Lefebvre as a dogmatic R&R.

    It's no different than when the BoDers co-opt the Church Doctors who believed in BoD as if they were defenders of their position that infidels could be saved.
    I am not the one falsely appropriating Archbishop Lefebvre as a proponent of my position,perhaps if you would simply click on the link you would have saw that maybe? My position is his, and the Church's, always has been and always will be. You conveniently missed the part where I based "my position" on V1's dogmatic teaching I guess.

    You talk a great talk for a sede, but if you ever try to quote actual Church teachings instead of ad libbing from theologians of the last few centuries to support your opinions, you will find only Church teachings that disagree with everything you say regarding sedeism.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #68 on: February 05, 2022, 01:43:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on February 05, 2022, 12:53:24 PM
    Once we get an orthodox Pope, I have a suspicion that the R&R attitude will remain, obedience goes down the tubes once the Pope says or does something they don't like. Same with some sedes,  as soon as he says something they think is heresy, he's not the Pope.
    DL, you are being as ridiculous as Lad now. PLEASE tell us ANYTHING that the conciliar popes have decreed as binding on the faithful at all - or at least anything that we could obey. 



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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #69 on: February 05, 2022, 01:49:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 05, 2022, 01:43:12 PM
    DL, you are being as ridiculous as Lad now. PLEASE tell us ANYTHING that the conciliar popes have decreed as binding on the faithful at all - or at least anything that we could obey.


    Several Canonizations.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #70 on: February 05, 2022, 01:51:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on February 05, 2022, 01:49:42 PM

    Several Canonizations.
    Great point. Yet, the argument will shift to say that canonizations aren't binding or infallible or whatever, even though they are being offered up on our altars worldwide as models of the Catholic faith.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #71 on: February 05, 2022, 01:54:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on February 05, 2022, 01:49:42 PM
    Several Canonizations.
    More like thousands I think, maybe more, who knows? A travesty, yes. Binding, no.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #72 on: February 05, 2022, 01:56:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on February 05, 2022, 01:51:46 PM
    Great point. Yet, the argument will shift to say that canonizations aren't binding or infallible or whatever, even though they are being offered up on our altars worldwide as models of the Catholic faith.
    Offered on what altars? The NO strictly use tables in their service - they do not "offer" anything except sacrileges for the last 60 years or so. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #73 on: February 05, 2022, 02:00:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on February 05, 2022, 01:51:46 PM
    Great point. Yet, the argument will shift to say that canonizations aren't binding or infallible or whatever, even though they are being offered up on our altars worldwide as models of the Catholic faith.
    Yes... I'd say, for example, the ICKSP  offering a Mass with, say, Mother Teresa "relics" under the altar is a conundrum going forward.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #74 on: February 05, 2022, 02:01:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on February 05, 2022, 12:53:24 PM
    Once we get an orthodox Pope, I have a suspicion that the R&R attitude will remain, obedience goes down the tubes once the Pope says or does something they don't like. Same with some sedes,  as soon as he says something they think is heresy, he's not the Pope.

    I don’t think a true pope will say something marginal, I don’t believe God will allow that. Due to the enormous confusion, I can’t see how God would not have a pope that is extremely saintly and unwaveringly orthodox.

    With that said, I can envision how some “sedevacantists” could/would confuse his angelic charitableness as liberalism or unorthodoxy and how some R&R adherents might not feel obligated to follow any decrees that are not to their liking.
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