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Author Topic: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?  (Read 13354 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2022, 07:33:13 AM »
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    • Father Chazal articulated a position that gives R&R a lifeline to avoid a heretical ecclesiology, and yet they refuse to take it.

    I'd love to understand why people like SeanJohnson, who's all about the Resistance, rejects Father Chazal's position.  What do you disagree with Father Chazal about?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #46 on: February 05, 2022, 07:39:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 05, 2022, 07:33:13 AM
    Father Chazal articulated a position that gives R&R a lifeline to avoid a heretical ecclesiology, and yet they refuse to take it.

    I'd love to understand why people like SeanJohnson, who's all about the Resistance, rejects Father Chazal's position.  What do you disagree with Father Chazal about?
    +ABL spelled it out nicely 40 years ago, there's no heresy with R&R, what is there to disagree with?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #47 on: February 05, 2022, 08:26:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on February 04, 2022, 09:32:32 PM
    They are legitimate quoad nos and de jure today.

    But it’s also possible they will be declared illegitimate in the future, and that would remove the black eye.

    That oughta mean a lot to the billions who lost their souls because they mistook the Whore of Babylon for the Immaculate Spouse! 

    FWIW, wouldn't the idea of divinely-protected spotlessness necessarily and altogether exclude incomprehensibly-massive and ugly black eyes?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #48 on: February 05, 2022, 08:29:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 05, 2022, 07:39:09 AM
    +ABL spelled it out nicely 40 years ago, there's no heresy with R&R, what is there to disagree with?

    No, the quasi-heretical R&R falsely appropriate Archbishop Lefebvre to their side.  Archbishop Lefebvre agreed that it's not possible that a legitimate pope could do these things because he would be protected and guided by the Holy Spirit.  He simply fell short of openly declaring it out of deference to the Church's authority.  There are many citations and a long audio recording of the Archbishop saying these things.  Fr. Ringose posted the audio when he became sedevacantist.

    Do you agree with the Archbishop that a legitimate pope cannot pepetrate this degree of destruction because he's protected by the Holy Spirit?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #49 on: February 05, 2022, 08:32:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on February 05, 2022, 08:26:16 AM
    That oughta mean a lot to the billions who lost their souls because they mistook the Whore of Babylon for the Immaculate Spouse!

    FWIW, wouldn't the idea of divinely-protected spotlessness necessarily and altogether exclude incomprehensibly-massive and ugly black eyes?

    Every Traditional Catholic insintctively understands that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, which is why they have separated from it.  But they play these mental games for various psychological reasons that I'm not going to get into here.  Tragically the result is a heretical and decidedly non-Catholic view of the Church.  I get the whole "I don't have the authority to decide this issue" ... to a point.  But we've ALREADY "decided" by separating ourselves from the Conciliar Church.  R&R are simply too afraid to admit it.  They want to have their pope and eat him too.  It makes them feel better to say that "see, we acknowledge the pope" ... as if that means anything when you claim that it's OK to categorically refuse submission to and communion with said pope.  It's an absolute disaster.

    I think about this all the time.  I know it's not possible, but if the Church WERE to confirm, "these were legitimate popes," this entire era is a black eye from which the Church could never recover.  Never again could Catholics simply accept anything coming from the Magisterium short of infallible declarations.  And Catholics will consider it acceptable to second-guess anything coming from the Vatican.

    I too started as a normal Traditional Catholic, going on just a Catholic instinct that this isn't the true Church and isn't compatible with it.  But then I started reading pre-Vatican II theology and ecclesiology, and it absolutely and categorically and unequivocally condemns as non-Catholic the principles behind R&R.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #50 on: February 05, 2022, 08:45:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on February 04, 2022, 10:08:22 PM
    Their legitimacy is not a conundrum for R&R as it is for sedes.

    :laugh1: Apparently, having a Satanic Whore rather than an Immaculate Spouse as a mother isn't a "conundrum" either.  As they say Down Under, "Go for your life, mate!"

    If the V2 anti-popes, when all is said and done, ARE legitimate and Holy Church can systematically devour Her own children for decades, then there is NO POINT in even having a church of any kind and it has all been an enormous, disastrous joke.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #51 on: February 05, 2022, 08:52:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 05, 2022, 08:32:56 AM
    Every Traditional Catholic instinctively understands that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, which is why they have separated from it.  But they play these mental games for various psychological reasons that I'm not going to get into here.  Tragically the result is a heretical and decidedly non-Catholic view of the Church.  I get the whole "I don't have the authority to decide this issue" ... to a point.  But we've ALREADY "decided" by separating ourselves from the Conciliar Church. 

    Yup.  Every Trad is de facto SV, whether or not they both grasp and admit it.

    How many on CI would say that O'Biden is illegitimate?  Upon what grounds?  Merely reviewing publicly-available evidence?  Should we not all wait for Congress to decide the matter before being so bold and brazen as to use our own eyes and minds and speak the truth with our own tongues?
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    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #52 on: February 05, 2022, 08:55:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 05, 2022, 08:29:51 AM
    No, the quasi-heretical R&R falsely appropriate Archbishop Lefebvre to their side.  Archbishop Lefebvre agreed that it's not possible that a legitimate pope could do these things because he would be protected and guided by the Holy Spirit.  He simply fell short of openly declaring it out of deference to the Church's authority.  There are many citations and a long audio recording of the Archbishop saying these things.  Fr. Ringose posted the audio when he became sedevacantist.

    Do you agree with the Archbishop that a legitimate pope cannot pepetrate this degree of destruction because he's protected by the Holy Spirit?
    As expected, you did not answer the question again so I will go through the motions and ask it again.... +ABL spelled it out nicely, what exactly do you disagree with?

    I do not expect you to answer, I am merely pointing out to you the bs R&R deal with by having pertinent questions that challenge sedeism, consistently, completely and conveniently for sedes, ignored - which must be due to that intellectual pride thing DL mentioned.

    Whether +ABL said that or not I do not know, nor does it matter who, if anyone, ever said it - no, I do not agree with it and I base my disagreement with that idea on V1's dogmatic teaching, I do not base it on my opinion or anyone else's opinion. (See, it's easy to give a clear answer to a clear question - just fyi).


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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #53 on: February 05, 2022, 09:12:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 05, 2022, 08:32:56 AM



    I too started as a normal Traditional Catholic, going on just a Catholic instinct that this isn't the true Church and isn't compatible with it.  But then I started reading pre-Vatican II theology and ecclesiology, and it absolutely and categorically and unequivocally condemns as non-Catholic the principles behind R&R.

    Ah yes, the theologians of the "indefectible" simply ordinary and authoritative magisterium, which lacks the marks of universality and infallibility.


    Quote
    Ezekiel 13:6-8

    They see vain things, and they foretell lies, saying: The Lord saith: whereas the Lord hath not sent them: and they have persisted to confirm what they have said.     [7] Have you not seen a vain vision and spoken a lying divination: and you say: The Lord saith: whereas I have not spoken. [8] Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Because you have spoken vain things, and have seen lies: therefore behold I come against you, saith the Lord God.

    Lamentations 2:14

    Thy prophets have seen false and foolish things for thee: and they have not laid open thy iniquity, to excite thee to penance: but they have seen for thee false revelations and banishments.

    Jeremiah 5:12-13

    For the house of Israel, and the house of Juda have greatly transgressed against me, saith the Lord. [12] They have denied the Lord, and said, It is not he: and the evil shall not come upon us: we shall not see the sword and famine. [13] The prophets have spoken in the wind, and there was no word of God in them: these things therefore shall befall them.

    Jeremiah 7:3-4

    Thus saith the Lord of hosts the God of Israel: Make your ways and your doings good: and I will dwell with you in this place.     [4] Trust not in lying words, saying: The temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, it is the temple of the Lord.

    And we wonder why V2 and the Conciliar abomination was visited upon us?


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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #54 on: February 05, 2022, 10:02:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on February 05, 2022, 09:12:19 AM
    Ah yes, the theologians of the "indefectible" simply ordinary and authoritative magisterium, which lacks the marks of universality and infallibility.
    [...]
    And we wonder why V2 and the Conciliar abomination was visited upon us?

    I agree that this is a major factor with sedeism and the crisis overall. Namely, that certain theologians of the last few centuries whose wrong teachings are wrongfully believed by many, including Lad, to be authentic Church teachings - even though they either contradict, confuse, or in one way or another do not agree with actual, authentic teachings of the Church.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #55 on: February 05, 2022, 10:07:06 AM »
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    • Here's how this thread will go over the next 20+ pages:

    R&R: No, you're wrong! Cites A B C
    Sedes: No, you're wrong! Cites X Y Z

    R&R: Smugly points out how proud and blind sedes are
    Sedes: Smugly points out how proud and blind R&R are

    On and on and on...meanwhile Satan laughs

    tenor
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #56 on: February 05, 2022, 10:17:36 AM »
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    • Trying to get a sede to answer a clear question is a very tall order. I would like to know what exactly sedes disagree with re +ABL's reasoning...

    "A lot of crazy thinking is corrected by clear challenges! And I do not know any place where man goes wilder than
    when he starts to think incorrectly in religious territories."     - Fr. Feeney
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #57 on: February 05, 2022, 10:19:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 05, 2022, 10:17:36 AM
    Trying to get a sede to answer a clear question is a very tall order. I would like to know what exactly sedes disagree with re +ABL's reasoning...

    "A lot of crazy thinking is corrected by clear challenges! And I do not know any place where man goes wilder than
    when he starts to think incorrectly in religious territories."     - Fr. Feeney
    They gave clear answers, as they have done every single time this debate starts up again.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #58 on: February 05, 2022, 11:47:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 05, 2022, 10:02:13 AM
    I agree that this is a major factor with sedeism and the crisis overall. Namely, that certain theologians of the last few centuries whose wrong teachings are wrongfully believed by many, including Lad, to be authentic Church teachings - even though they either contradict, confuse, or in one way or another do not agree with actual, authentic teachings of the Church.

    The teachings were the pride that cometh before the Conciliar fall.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #59 on: February 05, 2022, 12:31:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 05, 2022, 10:02:13 AM
    I agree that this is a major factor with sedeism and the crisis overall. Namely, that certain theologians of the last few centuries whose wrong teachings are wrongfully believed by many, including Lad, to be authentic Church teachings - even though they either contradict, confuse, or in one way or another do not agree with actual, authentic teachings of the Church.

    Stop this nonsesne.  It isn't theologians of the last few centuries.  This is the universal teaching of the Church from the beginning, from the Church Fathers, from Popes, Doctors of the Church, etc.  Your ecclesiology is decidedly in lockstep with that of the Prots and Old Catholics.
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