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Author Topic: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?  (Read 13404 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2022, 05:34:23 PM »
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  • John of St. Thomas, Cajetan, Suarez, Billot, Billuart, Torquemada, Vittoria, and many other fine theologians opined that a heretic remains pope until such time as the Church declares God has deposed him.

    Against these, the sedevacantists hold to a contested interpretation of St. Bellarmine.

    Fine and well.

    But let’s not pretend the R&R position is irrational or untenable, when theologians as great as those mentioned above held the same position.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #16 on: February 04, 2022, 05:54:16 PM »
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  • But let’s not pretend the R&R position is irrational or untenable, when theologians as great as those mentioned above held the same position.

    Let's not pretend it is merely a question of one man's heresy.  The Immaculate Spouse of Christ has been replaced by the Whore of Babylon, yet you want us to say they both occupy the same space and share the same visible head.

    None of the theologians you mentioned was even beginning to theorize about a situation like the one we have faced these last several decades.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline mcollier

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #17 on: February 04, 2022, 07:19:11 PM »
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  • Let's not pretend it is merely a question of one man's heresy.  The Immaculate Spouse of Christ has been replaced by the Whore of Babylon, yet you want us to say they both occupy the same space and share the same visible head.

    None of the theologians you mentioned was even beginning to theorize about a situation like the one we have faced these last several decades.
    Not the position. The head of the Conciliar church is not necessarily the same as the person of the pope who is the visible head of the universal Church. 

    Also the Catholic Church is indefectible so the Conciliar church does NOT share the same space as the Conciliar church or (Antichurch). The members of the Church that have materially or formally joined with the Conciliar church do not represent “the Church”. Their status as belonging to the church varies from case to case, but the fact remains that the theologians have not settled the question of what happens in the case of a heretical pope. 

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #18 on: February 04, 2022, 08:00:17 PM »
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  • No.  It's you who doesn't "get it".  There's a difference between a "bad pope" and a "heretic pope". 

    I'm pretty sure that this is an ongoing question or issue, and has been for quite some time. It's not new. Francis had heretical predecessors too.

    Sedevacantists hardy ever bring up the actual heresy that the popes are guilty of - which is Modernism. I don't understand why they don't cite the actual cause of heresy, since the heresy has been around for over 100 years. Pope St. Pius X warned about it in his time, over a hundred years ago. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #19 on: February 04, 2022, 08:19:44 PM »
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  • Don't you get it? This latest newsflash changes nothing. 10 years ago we had a bad Pope. Yesterday we had a bad Pope. We still have a bad Pope. What of it?
    I'm going to keep on keeping the Faith in my lifeboat chapel. No change. No news.

    That's why Sedes LOVE sites like NovusOrdoWatch and Traditio. They wait with bated breath for any new heresy from Rome, so they can pounce on it and act like "Now you non-Sedes have to come over to our side!!!"

    No, we don't.
    Francis fits the definition of an anti-pope.  He's technically still vying for the Seat, since Benedict claims to still hold partial office.

    The precedence is Antacletus II, anti-pope of 1130.    So you can say he's the "Pope"... and pray for him.   Mother Mary described him as "worm ridden".

    St. Francis of Assisi described him as a "non canonically elected destroyer".  

    He will go down in history with the name of "Pope" and with the prefix, "anti" for eternity.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline SperaInDeo

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #20 on: February 04, 2022, 08:40:30 PM »
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  • John of St. Thomas, Cajetan, Suarez, Billot, Billuart, Torquemada, Vittoria, and many other fine theologians opined that a heretic remains pope until such time as the Church declares God has deposed him.

    Against these, the sedevacantists hold to a contested interpretation of St. Bellarmine.

    Fine and well.

    But let’s not pretend the R&R position is irrational or untenable, when theologians as great as those mentioned above held the same position.

    You are correct. But I would like to point out that the sede interpretation of Bellarmine is actually incorrect. Bellarmine argues R&R - He said a heretical pope should be "resisted" and "who will depose him since he is a sovereign?" and "an ecuмenical council cannot even do it". If you don't believe me, then go read the pertinent chapters of "On the Roman Pontiff"

    Yet here we have laymen who will depose him, and uncharitably attack those who actually hold the position of the Saint they claim as their own. Others take it even further and make it a new dogma that you must hold and even change the canon of the Mass. How isn't that the slyest manifestation of Modernism in existence?

    All this over what? As has already been pointed out ad nauseam - there isn't a practical difference between the R&R and sede approaches to the crisis. R&R already knows that Rome has lost the Faith. They already operate outside the Conciliar Church. Maybe the sedes should go bark at the local Novus Ordo church, or FSSP if they want to evangelize. But I have a feeling evangelization isn't what this is really about...

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #21 on: February 04, 2022, 08:48:36 PM »
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  • None of the theologians you mentioned was even beginning to theorize about a situation like the one we have faced these last several decades.

    They didn't quite see this particular crazy Crisis, but they still debated about how to deal with a heretical pope. Here's a paragraph from the last chapter of Fr. Chazal's book, "Contra Cekadam":

    Quote:  "Let us leave the last word to Catejan:  "If somebody for a reasonable motive holds as suspect the person of the Pope, and refuse his presence, even his jurisdiction, he does not commit any delict of schism, nor any other delict as long as long as he is ready to accept the Pope if he were not suspect. It is obvious that we have the right to avoid what is causing damage and to prevent dangers."  Catejan does not say that one has to refuse the jurisdiction of the suspect Pontiff, as you contend, but that someone could, with good reasons. He differed with Bellarmine on the question of the heretical Pope, but understood, almost prophetically, what could happen in our sorrowful years." (end quote)
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #22 on: February 04, 2022, 08:52:08 PM »
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  • The latest from Antipope Frankie:

    https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2022/02/02/pope-francis-audience-communion-saints-242321

    Wow.  I don't know what this guy believes, but he clearly doesn't have the Catholic faith.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #23 on: February 04, 2022, 08:53:04 PM »
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  • The Deuce said the same thing in Redemptor Hominis and Redemptoriis Missio.  Those who do not want to see will not see.

    Redemptor Hominis (# 13), March 4, 1979: “We are dealing with each man, for each one is included in the mystery of the Redemption and with each one Christ has united Himself forever through this mystery.

    Redemptoris Missio (# 4), Dec. 7, 1990: “The Redemption event brings salvation to all, „for each one is included in the mystery of the Redemption and with each one Christ has united himself forever through this mystery.‟”

    Right, as soon as I read the quote from Bergoglio, I immediately thought of this also.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #24 on: February 04, 2022, 08:56:28 PM »
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  • All this over what? As has already been pointed out ad nauseam - there isn't a practical difference between the R&R and sede approaches to the crisis. R&R already knows that Rome has lost the Faith. They already operate outside the Conciliar Church. Maybe the sedes should go bark at the local Novus Ordo church, or FSSP if they want to evangelize. But I have a feeling evangelization isn't what this is really about...
    It's about intellectual pride; about being right more than anything. And this isn't just found on one side either, it's present on both. Which is why we can't agree to disagree until the restored Church settles the matter.

    And I hold to a sede vacante position myself, mind you (more or less closer to Cassiciacuм or Fr. Chazal's position).
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #25 on: February 04, 2022, 09:07:41 PM »
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  • SV in the practical order, just like all who resist.  No biggie.

    Out of curiosity, can you remember the last directive from Rome of any kind that you followed, or even cared about?

    Looking at the state of the world, it'll all be resolved sooner rather than later...and not a moment too soon, thank God.

    No worries.  :laugh1:  R&R actually agree with these statements from Bergoglio:  heretics, apostates, it matters not, they're all within the communion of saints (aka the Church).

    Of course, let me distinguish here, as R&R is not monolithic.  Here are some schools of R&R:

    1) He's certainly a legitimate pope (it's dogmatic fact), and we obey him when we can and reject him only when we can't obey in good conscience.
    2) He's probably the pope, and, just to play it safe, we should obey him when we can ... etc.
    3) He's probably not the pope, but we don't have the authority to decide the matter (Archbishop Lefebvre's true position).
    4) He's almost certainly not the pope, but we don't have the authority to decide the matter, but let's play it safe and obey him when we can.
    5) He's a manifest heretic who lacks all authority and can and must be ignored entirely, but he remains visibly in possession of the office and only the Church can remove him from it (Fr. Chazal)

    #5 of course is effectively privationism.

    I myself am somewhere in betwen #4 and #5.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #26 on: February 04, 2022, 09:11:17 PM »
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  • Francis fits the definition of an anti-pope.  He's technically still vying for the Seat, since Benedict claims to still hold partial office.

    The precedence is Antacletus II, anti-pope of 1130.    So you can say he's the "Pope"... and pray for him.  Mother Mary described him as "worm ridden".

    St. Francis of Assisi described him as a "non canonically elected destroyer". 

    He will go down in history with the name of "Pope" and with the prefix, "anti" for eternity.

    Agreed. The bolded part is the reason that Cardinal Bergoglio is not and has never been the authentic Pope.

    1. Benedict's "resignation" was not valid according to Canon Law, so whether Benedict intended it or not, he is still the Pope in the eyes of God and by Church law.

    2. A new Pope cannot be elected until the See is vacated. So the March 2013 Conclave, even if legitimate in every way, cannot produce a new sitting Pope until Benedict properly resigns.

    3. So what we have is the equivalent of Sede Privationism, except that Benedict (not Bergoglio) is the actual Pope and has had his power removed by his enemies (Bergoglio and the C9, aka the 10 horns of the Beast). Benedict is a prisoner, while his putative replacement illegitimately claims the See. All legitimate acts of "the Pope" have ended unless and until Benedict resumes his Papacy or Benedict dies.

    4. Everything Bergoglio does is canonically irrelevant, but those who believe the deception that he is the legitimate Pope will be scandalized and fall away from the Catholic faith. So what Bergoglio has done and is doing is practically relevant in the arena of trying to save souls of scandalized Catholics. 

    5. If Benedict dies before Bergoglio (which is unlikely), then the questions surrounding illegal vote-trading in Bergoglio's election would come into play. Because of those shenanigans, Bergoglio would still be an illegitimate pope according to Canon Law.

    6. The Antichrist will soon be revealed (in less than 3 years). He is either Bergoglio himself or someone close to him in the nascent Counterfeit Church. A new "religion of woke" with the God of the Abrahamic House (Father) and the Mother Pachamama (Mother) will give birth to Brotherhood of Man/Satan (Son). This new Unholy Trinity will be fully-formed Counterfeit Church, the Beast ridden by the Whore of Babylon.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #27 on: February 04, 2022, 09:15:34 PM »
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  • Let's not pretend it is merely a question of one man's heresy.  The Immaculate Spouse of Christ has been replaced by the Whore of Babylon, yet you want us to say they both occupy the same space and share the same visible head.

    None of the theologians you mentioned was even beginning to theorize about a situation like the one we have faced these last several decades.

    I've repeatedly pointed this out.  At the end of the day, if Jorge Bergoglio were running around spewing heresy in Rome, had Vatican II never happened and the NOM had never happened, I really could hardly care less.  Doesn't affect me.  Not my problem.  Let the Cardinals deal with him.  Unfortunatley due to V2 and the NOM, it became our problem.

    This isn't about personal heresy.  This isn't about personal wickedness.  This isn't even about the quarrel over the strict limits of infallibility.  It's about the indefectibility of the Church.  Archbishop Lefebvre clearly, emphatically, and repeatedly stated that this Conciliar Church lacks the marks of the One True Church.

    If the Church could teach error, teach heresy even, lead countless souls to loss of faith and loss of their souls through its official teaching, if the Church could produce a rite of public worship that offends God and cannot be attended in good conscience, our Catholic faith is in vain.  What is it that we believe in?  How are we different than, say, the Old Catholics?  How are we different from the Protestants, when we say it's OK to "protest" and reject the teaching of the Church and hold that the Catholic Rite of Mass leads to impiety (a proposition of the Prots anathematized by Trent).

    Unfortunately, R&R has left many Traditional Catholics holding on to the Catholic faith only by the skin of their teeth.

    Let's throw Holy Mother Church under the bus to rescue Bergoglio.  It's more important for us to have some guy walking around dressed in white than to defend the honor and integrity of the Holy Mother Church and the prerogatives of her Magisterium.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #28 on: February 04, 2022, 09:18:17 PM »
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  • Agreed. The bolded part is the reason that Cardinal Bergoglio is not and has never been the authentic Pope.

    1. Benedict's "resignation" was not valid according to Canon Law, so whether Benedict intended it or not, he is still the Pope in the eyes of God and by Church law.

    2. A new Pope cannot be elected until the See is vacated. So the March 2013 Conclave, even if legitimate in every way, cannot produce a new sitting Pope until Benedict properly resigns.

    3. So what we have is the equivalent of Sede Privationism, except that Benedict (not Bergoglio) is the actual Pope and has had his power removed by his enemies (Bergoglio and the C9, aka the 10 horns of the Beast). Benedict is a prisoner, while his putative replacement illegitimately claims the See. All legitimate acts of "the Pope" have ended unless and until Benedict resumes his Papacy or Benedict dies.

    4. Everything Bergoglio does is canonically irrelevant, but those who believe the deception that he is the legitimate Pope will be scandalized and fall away from the Catholic faith. So what Bergoglio has done and is doing is practically relevant in the arena of trying to save souls of scandalized Catholics.

    5. If Benedict dies before Bergoglio (which is unlikely), then the questions surrounding illegal vote-trading in Bergoglio's election would come into play. Because of those shenanigans, Bergoglio would still be an illegitimate pope according to Canon Law.

    6. The Antichrist will soon be revealed (in less than 3 years). He is either Bergoglio himself or someone close to him in the nascent Counterfeit Church. A new "religion of woke" with the God of the Abrahamic House (Father) and the Mother Pachamama (Mother) will give birth to Brotherhood of Man/Satan (Son). This new Unholy Trinity will be fully-formed Counterfeit Church, the Beast ridden by the Whore of Babylon.
    The fact that Benedict is still alive is somewhat providential. He "resigned" (whether or not one believes it) in 2013 and is still alive and, last I checked, quite well. That's very strange given all that's been going on.

    Whether or not he's the Pope is beyond me. I doubt it. But know that Bergoglio simply cannot be because A: he is a manifest heretic; and B: he is most likely not even a real priest since he was ordained in the new rite, Benedict is at least a legitimate priest yet (not that that helps the Pope question anyway)
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
    « Reply #29 on: February 04, 2022, 09:18:27 PM »
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  • Agreed. The bolded part is the reason that Cardinal Bergoglio is not and has never been the authentic Pope.

    1. Benedict's "resignation" was not valid according to Canon Law, so whether Benedict intended it or not, he is still the Pope in the eyes of God and by Church law.

    Oh, stop it already.  Ratzinger is as big of a heretic as Bergoglio; he's just less flamboyant and open about it.  Spend a few minutes reading Bishop Tissier's paper on the heresies of Ratzinger.  Even "Cardinal" Kasper (the friendly ecuмenist) stated that there's no substantial difference between Bergoglio's theology and that of Ratzinger ... just in their expression of it.  Nor was the Deuce any better, except that the latter actually held the line on moral theology ... while of course destroying dogmatic theology and being the greatest purveyor of religious indifferentism in history.

    And this Whore of Babylon wasn't just born in 2013.  It started in 1958, when the wicked infiltrators replaced the legitimately elected Pope Gregory XVII (Siri) with one of their operatives and agents.  Are you people blind?  An enemy hath done this, to quote Our Lord.  V2 and the NOM have the devil's hoofprints all over it (and Jєωιѕн Masonic Communist fingerprints).  This isn't just a few random guys who had weak faith.  If they had any faith at all, the Holy Spirit would have kept them from doing what they did to the Church.