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Author Topic: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?  (Read 15514 times)

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Offline SperaInDeo

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Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2022, 08:40:30 PM »
John of St. Thomas, Cajetan, Suarez, Billot, Billuart, Torquemada, Vittoria, and many other fine theologians opined that a heretic remains pope until such time as the Church declares God has deposed him.

Against these, the sedevacantists hold to a contested interpretation of St. Bellarmine.

Fine and well.

But let’s not pretend the R&R position is irrational or untenable, when theologians as great as those mentioned above held the same position.

You are correct. But I would like to point out that the sede interpretation of Bellarmine is actually incorrect. Bellarmine argues R&R - He said a heretical pope should be "resisted" and "who will depose him since he is a sovereign?" and "an ecuмenical council cannot even do it". If you don't believe me, then go read the pertinent chapters of "On the Roman Pontiff"

Yet here we have laymen who will depose him, and uncharitably attack those who actually hold the position of the Saint they claim as their own. Others take it even further and make it a new dogma that you must hold and even change the canon of the Mass. How isn't that the slyest manifestation of Modernism in existence?

All this over what? As has already been pointed out ad nauseam - there isn't a practical difference between the R&R and sede approaches to the crisis. R&R already knows that Rome has lost the Faith. They already operate outside the Conciliar Church. Maybe the sedes should go bark at the local Novus Ordo church, or FSSP if they want to evangelize. But I have a feeling evangelization isn't what this is really about...

Offline Meg

Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2022, 08:48:36 PM »
None of the theologians you mentioned was even beginning to theorize about a situation like the one we have faced these last several decades.

They didn't quite see this particular crazy Crisis, but they still debated about how to deal with a heretical pope. Here's a paragraph from the last chapter of Fr. Chazal's book, "Contra Cekadam":

Quote:  "Let us leave the last word to Catejan:  "If somebody for a reasonable motive holds as suspect the person of the Pope, and refuse his presence, even his jurisdiction, he does not commit any delict of schism, nor any other delict as long as long as he is ready to accept the Pope if he were not suspect. It is obvious that we have the right to avoid what is causing damage and to prevent dangers."  Catejan does not say that one has to refuse the jurisdiction of the suspect Pontiff, as you contend, but that someone could, with good reasons. He differed with Bellarmine on the question of the heretical Pope, but understood, almost prophetically, what could happen in our sorrowful years." (end quote)


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2022, 08:52:08 PM »

The latest from Antipope Frankie:

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2022/02/02/pope-francis-audience-communion-saints-242321

Wow.  I don't know what this guy believes, but he clearly doesn't have the Catholic faith.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2022, 08:53:04 PM »
The Deuce said the same thing in Redemptor Hominis and Redemptoriis Missio.  Those who do not want to see will not see.

Redemptor Hominis (# 13), March 4, 1979: “We are dealing with each man, for each one is included in the mystery of the Redemption and with each one Christ has united Himself forever through this mystery.

Redemptoris Missio (# 4), Dec. 7, 1990: “The Redemption event brings salvation to all, „for each one is included in the mystery of the Redemption and with each one Christ has united himself forever through this mystery.‟”

Right, as soon as I read the quote from Bergoglio, I immediately thought of this also.

Re: Feb 2nd 2022, The Day RnR Admit Antipope Francis is Not in the Church?
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2022, 08:56:28 PM »
All this over what? As has already been pointed out ad nauseam - there isn't a practical difference between the R&R and sede approaches to the crisis. R&R already knows that Rome has lost the Faith. They already operate outside the Conciliar Church. Maybe the sedes should go bark at the local Novus Ordo church, or FSSP if they want to evangelize. But I have a feeling evangelization isn't what this is really about...
It's about intellectual pride; about being right more than anything. And this isn't just found on one side either, it's present on both. Which is why we can't agree to disagree until the restored Church settles the matter.

And I hold to a sede vacante position myself, mind you (more or less closer to Cassiciacuм or Fr. Chazal's position).